151 replies to this topic

[Drewry]

While the western world tears at each other over pointless arguments. The shallow and weak minded support the deceiptful. The innocent give their lives and the guilty prosper. I present myself before what's left of decency in our culture.

I say our culture because I believe it does not matter what race you are or what your nationality is. From the west coast of california to the fields of France, or the dikes of Holland. I believe we are all the same people and all share the same culture. More and more we are merging into a unified people. The creation of the internet has hastened this.

But this day I ask you, despite our differences - what will we make of our future. Afterall it is our future and those in power currently will not be here to change it.

I believe that the political spectrum does not exist and never did. There are not two sides to every issue - condensing it to just that should be insulting to every one of us.

I ask you to open your ears to me. I believe the time has come to create a new government. I have begun writing the makings of a new government, but I have decided that instead of me writing it by myself that I would have it half written by me and half written by the people. I have created a foundation, it is up to the people to transform my foundation into a monument of epic proportions.

I believe in a system for the people ruled by the people. A mix of communism and democracy - socialism and capitolism. A system without worldly leaders, where the people are the supreme rulers. The destruction of the bureaucracy - thus cutting out the middle men and freeing the world of corruption.

I want to abolish currency but before we could ever achieve such liberation we need to work towards that goal - not away from it. I view currency as the chains of humanity, some call 'financial freedom' liberating. There is no true liberation as long as there is currency - freedom will never exist through this method.

I dont believe freedom has ever existed under our current governments. Only a political tool to inspire the people under harsh nationalism. Whenever the people loose the patriotic feeling, the government always holds that tease of freedom over our heads.

Our minds are like parachutes, they work better when open. I ask you this as an equal. I invision a society where all have equal rights - truely. Where there are no tyrants or fascist regimes. I ask you to join me in my dream, and contribute. Speak your mind - good or bad. But in it being good or bad state your logic.

Though the goal is great, I believe that the only boundaries that truely exist are those we create with our mind. Afterall, the only ones who end up changing the world are those crazy enough to think that they can.

Before contributing I would like you to read what I have so far, however most of you have read this - but those who havent please read:

http://forums.revora...showtopic=22005

Edited by Drewry, 28 August 2005 - 05:46 AM.

[Hostile]

While one may see this as a bleeding heart liberal, it seems this person has no political affliction. So I find his words sincere....

[Silent_Killa]

I see a lot of ideas, but not so much on the application. Who's going to decide who gets to a higher "class".

When someone's accused of a crime they're sent to a psychiatrist? Have you ever met a criminal? It's not a matter of finding a problem and fixing it, lets face it, rehabilitation rarely works.

[Drewry]

I believe that therapy can fix half of our crime problems. But you are right, there are a lot of things that just cannot be fixed. However it doesnt matter what I believe, it is what the people belive.

The people decide who gets a higher class. Everything is based on a system of values defined by the people. Something we can all agree on.

[Silent_Killa]

What do you mean the people decide who gets a higher class? I mean, are you going to have people evaluate who's working harder? How are you going to know that they always work as hard as they do during evaluation?

[Drewry]

Well not entirely, I plan to have a pre-set values as the default. One that is decided by a council before the government is set up - much like this one. Where everyone gives their say, and it is evaluated by the group. Until we reach a structure that everyone can agree on. What class is above what etc. Then from there the people can modify that structure by voting to change it. However it cannot be changed so much that it takes that class out of its place on the structure.

Think of it like stretchy chains. You can stretch one chain pretty far, but that chain will always be in the same position no matter if it is stretched really far or compacted really tiny that will not change where it is in the entire chain.

For most jobs it is fairly easy to evaluate if they are working by the production. Take a farmer - you know that the farmer has been working hard if he produced 1000 bushels of whatever (I dont know much about farming so work with me) in a week. And his quota was say 500 bushels. That extra work would go to his merit so that he could then be promoted an extra bit for working harder.

The merit system works a lot like a RPG if you ever played one of those. You need 'experience' - for lack of better words - to move up in merit level. If you are the farmer and you produce 500 over your quota that is then transformed into a global ratio, so lets say that is equal to 5 merit points. And you are a merit 1 farmer, so lets then say that you have 5/25 points. When you acheieve 20 more points you will be promoted to farmer merit 2.

Another example of an evaluation is a doctor, he saves 5 people but kills 1. Lets say his quota is to have a positive number of 10. Kills would = to negative 1 and Saving would = to positive 1. He then would have 4 thus being 6 under his quota which would then go into the global ratio and then in turn count against his points for promotion.

I hope that helps you understand.

Edited by Drewry, 28 August 2005 - 07:47 AM.

[Silent_Killa]

That doesn't work for all professions. A farmer doesn't farm by himself, there are a group of people working for the farmer. How do you evaluate their work?

When people are working together, as that's the only way to be productive, how are they going to be evaluated?

[Blodo]

About the people picking the government: What if it changes into the dreaded popularity contest? Huge campaigns etc all over again, that would make for a failure of that system.

By definition people want to believe. If some guy made the people believe in him, he would quickly ascend government not requiring any skills beside charisma. That is not good, actually you can do nothing to filter out such malicious characters that is why democracy today is failing.

[AdmiralGT]

You can never abolish currency, because currency is a good like wheat, apples etc. Before currency existed, people exchanged goods (2 apples for a bit of wheat) and it's exactly the same process now, instead a set value of currency is assigned to 2 apples and a bit of wheat.

Currency is a way of simplifying the market system, without currency how would we go into a shop and get something? How would you reward someone for their work? You could never have a central government organising what eveyone wanted as their reward. Currency allows this, and is exactly why we pay wages to people for work.

[Tom]

I say our culture because I believe it does not matter what race you are or what your nationality is.  From the west coast of california to the fields of France, or the dikes of Holland.  I believe we are all the same people and all share the same culture.  More and more we are merging into a unified people.  The creation of the internet has hastened this.

But this day I ask you, despite our differences - what will we make of our future.  Afterall it is our future and those in power currently will not be here to change it.

Its not whether they can change the future so much, its what damage they do to the present.

I believe that the political spectrum does not exist and never did.  There are not two sides to every issue - condensing it to just that should be insulting to every one of us.

Yes i do agree, in the last few weeks i've seen that it only divides us and i agree it should be about Morals: whats right and whats wrong not whats right and whats left.

I ask you to open your ears to me.  I believe the time has come to create a new government.  I have begun writing the makings of a new government, but I have decided that instead of me writing it by myself that I would have it half written by me and half written by the people.  I have created a foundation, it is up to the people to transform my foundation into a monument of epic proportions.

I believe in a system for the people ruled by the people.  A mix of communism and democracy - socialism and capitolism.  A system without worldly leaders, where the people are the supreme rulers.  The destruction of the bureaucracy - thus cutting out the middle men and freeing the world of corruption.

I've read your work on your site, very interesting and to some points i do agree. A balance of all ideas and effective ideas that work such as in capitalism if you work hard its possible to work your way upto a life of luxury, communism - a world without a government ruled by the people.

Nice work overall Drewry but there are some points in our current society that the others have brought up that need further brainstorming.

When someone's accused of a crime they're sent to a psychiatrist? Have you ever met a criminal? It's not a matter of finding a problem and fixing it, lets face it, rehabilitation rarely works.

I do agree that those who commit astrocities such as murder should be locked away, but whilst being punished rehabilitation should also be attempted as many criminals actually suffer from mental issues.

That doesn't work for all professions. A farmer doesn't farm by himself, there are a group of people working for the farmer. How do you evaluate their work?

When people are working together, as that's the only way to be productive, how are they going to be evaluated?

There is a point, but wouldn't it be through the farmers selling the food at the markets, whatever is made from that is to be shared equally to the workers?

You can never abolish currency, because currency is a good like wheat, apples etc. Before currency existed, people exchanged goods (2 apples for a bit of wheat) and it's exactly the same process now, instead a set value of currency is assigned to 2 apples and a bit of wheat.

Of course, but now the currency is controlled and it allows exploitation. So really its abolishing the control of the currency and freeing the currency from the hands of a few small elite. Of course Drewry's ideology needs deeper brainstorming as there are alot of ifs and what ifs.

[ComradeJ]

Another example of an evaluation is a doctor, he saves 5 people but kills 1.  Lets say his quota is to have a positive number of 10.  Kills would = to negative 1 and Saving would = to positive 1.  He then would have 4  thus being 6 under his quota which would then go into the global ratio and then in turn count against his points for promotion.

I hope that helps you understand.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So a doctor would be better off sending very sick people away than to try and cure them but fail? It's a rather unfair approach.

[Drewry]

So a doctor would be better off sending very sick people away than to try and cure them but fail? It's a rather unfair approach.

So why not make it a rule where a doctor cannot send sick people away from him.

Hybrid understands exactly what I mean, I am not saying we should resort back to the days of exchanging apples for oranges. We are taking it out of the control of the elitists.

Of course there are a lot of what ifs, the very reason I am introducing this to you; to close the gaps. Concentrated in this forum we have some of the greatest minds of our generation. It is vital that we work together.

About the people picking the government: What if it changes into the dreaded popularity contest

Im not sure you understand the way the system works, a popularity contest of who? There is no central leader at all other than a council that is debates all day long about the problems and solutions to the nation. The only central figure I can see is the head of the council, and all he does is keep things orderly in the council. No council member has any more power over the government than the average person.

The only popularity contest would be for ideas, the council members ensure that every member of the nation is educated enough to make a good vote.

That doesn't work for all professions. A farmer doesn't farm by himself, there are a group of people working for the farmer. How do you evaluate their work

Exactly, for group projects it is hard to legislate who does what. So we need to get brainstorming for ideas to come up with a solution. We have the resources: inside this forum are the walls of every building where new governments were born. If we are undecided we can call a poll to get decisions passed.

Personally there are more conflicting holes in the system as of now that I am concerned about. We need brainstorming to close these gaps:

What class does the child take, a mix of the mother and fathers? The only problem with that is people would be marrying for class instead of love. So my idea was to make every child have a class of their own. Through each progression of a child. Start out with a child class - not much things needed. Progress to a young adult class - more things offered. We could add more when nessasary. The benefit of this would be #1 everyone in the family would be responsible for their own wellbeing. This would encourage children to be independent from an early age thus building life skills needed in the society. Second I believe that all children should go to a standardized school academy. All school academies must be the exact same. This is a very social idea but at the same time it is also very capitalist. I believe compitition is only good if it is FAIR compitition. If everyone starts from the same place, then there should be no dispute when someone gets 1st place, 2nd etc. (figuratively speaking.)

There are some other things I am not totally sure about. I want to have a network of supercomputers to monitor and regulate the system to make sure no human hands are on this. This system would be self maintained, and constructed in an undisclosed location miles under the earth safe from all harm. The founders of the government will be the only ones to know where it is. The only way it can be opened up is if a majority vote by the people opens it up. Thus the people will select engineers to fix the problem (if there is one) while being monitored the whole time by video.

Information will be stored on massive hardrives in a national library (protected and maintained). The only way to get information is from the national internet, every file of information is available to everyone. There is no other possible way to access these databases. I have come up with a series of checks and fail systems for this. Lets there are 200 supercomputers, all networked to each other. lets say half of them check the calculations and the other half check the harddrives. So 100 computers are calculating everything, if one computer makes an error (lets say a supercomputer makes an error 1/1000000 times). but the other 99 didnt make an error, obvioulsy the other 99 are correct and it will go with that calculation. If more than one go wrong like lest say 30 did and 70 didnt, it will go with the 70 computer's calculation. Same system with the hardrives, to ensure that there is no tampering with the information. 100 computers are constnatly checking to make sure that all the information is the exact same. So if someone did manage to hack a harddrive, they would have to do it 100 times in a split second. I dont know anyone who could work that fast.

Im sure there are a whole host of loopholes that I cannot see, so please brainstorm with me.

Edited by Drewry, 28 August 2005 - 07:04 PM.

[Blodo]

A central figure isnt needed for the popularity contest. It could be anyone. For example a guy who is very liked, but has done jack shit to help the nation in any way. People will still vote for his promotion because they like him. Its just one of the psychological human factors that somehow need to be controlled in order to achieve a working government.

[Drewry]

yes but the people wont be voting jUST for him, you cant make a vote so that one person in particular gets benefits that others dont. His promotion is not decided by the people but rather by what he has done.

[Blodo]

But who will decide what he has done? There will have to be bureaucracy in the middle, and that middle can be bribed to get someone high up. It can also be biased on someone and not allow him promotions, or even demote him. The problem with that is that it will require constant control, therefore creating the "OMG DICTATORSHIP" freak offshoot, which will start to plot how to overthrow the government. Just like things were done in communism.

[Allied General]

like i said governemnts/idealism don't work

just deal with it.

[AdmiralGT]

I'm not understanding what you mean in that currency is controlled by elitists? How are you going to control currency in a manner not similar to today's ways?

Secondly, your information bank is quite frankly a breach of civil rights. We have the right to hold personal information about ourselves. That is what freedom is about.
There is also no fail safe system in the world. Nothing is 100% accurate. These 100 supercomputers will, eventually, produce an incorrect calculation. Considering there are 6 billion people in the world, the number of queries to the system will soon stack up and an error will be made.

Thirdly, if you're providing basic living amenities for everyone, why does anyone have an incentive to work to earn a few extra luxury goods. In any economic system, there will always be some people, where they see that the reward for work does not exceed the benefits of not going to work. What will happen to these? Will you just allow them to rot? What about those who can't work or those who can't get a job. 100% employment will never work because there will never be need for every person in the industry.

Who will decide new laws? Who decides who is on this council to decide things? Isn't that just democracy? What revolutionary idea exactly is that?

All of your suggestions aren't that different from today's capitalist governments. The merit system is called wages. We get paid in accordance to how important our job is. Doctors get paid more than Janitors, and experienced Doctor's get paid more than Junior Doctors.

Your main idea seems to be to replace wages with the provision of luxury items. Isn't that what money already does?

[Silent_Killa]

communism - a world without a government ruled by the people.

Communism is sorta the opposite of that... or at least the only way to make it work is. The only government where the people are ruled by the people is anarchy.

I see what you're saying Drewry, but the truth is the more ideal the government is, the closer the application gets to impossible.

[Drewry]

Thats what im trying to get through, impossible is only what we make of it. Some said it was impossible to go to the moon. Before that they said it was impossible that the world was round, they said that it was impossible that earth was not the center of the universe. How many times through history have 'they' been wrong? For years we used Aristotles ideals on how the universe worked when in fact nearly everything he said was wrong. Heavier objects DO NOT fall faster in every case - he was only later debunked by a heretic who had to work in complete secrecy.

Most of you who are against this system are not thinking outside of the box. You are only thinking about the application the way things are exactly today. If you actually read the part I asked you then you would know that this will be implemented gradually. Its not something that just happens over night. That is the way every single government came into play (with the exception of a few). They start out in theory, and then these ideas are then implemented over time. Take the great minds of the enlightenment, montesquieu, locke, voltaire - all of their ideas were not used in practice for hundred years later.

The information bank is not any more an infringment on our rights than today's society. Every single information about you can be obtained by anyone, a little something called the freedom of information act. The further technology advances the more and more your so called private information becomes a public access. Your entire work history, your previous marriages, how many times you have been arrested and for what, where you went to school. Nearly every aspect of your life can be obtained by someone that knows the right type of people. This is becoming more and more a reality with the renewal of the patriot act, and the same is happening in the UK as well. Instead of running and denying the truth lets be reasonable. You call me an idealist while im not the one who refuses to accept what is blatantly true.

Of course there is no way to make things 100% efficient, the greatest engine can never run at 100% efficiency becuase of friction, heat loss etc. We can only make things as good as we possibly can. Stopping before that point should be a crime. I dont believe we have reached a point of satisfaction with government. If you look at what is not directly in front of you then you will discover this.

Dictatorship - that is exactly what it is. If you read the information I asked you to read then you would know this. It is a dictatorship, but the tyrant is the people. The people have total control over the government.

Of course there will be many similarities to modern day governments; why? Because it is a mixture of all of them. You have to be open and look at not just what is in front of your face but the entire picture. Saying this will never happen or that can never happen is being close minded.

People will want to go to work because of the amount of luxury invovled. In the book I describe how there are required vacational periods. People are not being worked to death and they are being treated extremely luxuriously. The only reason this can be done is becuase of the amount of production that is going on - 100% employment.

The goal is to get rid of the bureaucracy all together. The whole purpose of this topic is to brainstorm. How do you tell how much everyone in the group is doing. It is really easy when you are just telling how much one person is doing. Perhaps a group evaluation, where each person in the group tells not how much they did but how much everyone in the group did but themselves. Thats just a basic idea, easily flawed. I dont know the answer, but however we acheieve the solution it will be together.

I need you to work with me not against me. So many seem to just accept what our government is doing as right. The day we stop caring is the day we loose freedom. I know there are many flaws but the only way they will be solved is by working together. If this topic bothers you - then do not read it. There is noone forcing you to read it.

Edited by Drewry, 29 August 2005 - 03:13 AM.