71 replies to this topic

[Silent_Killa]

No it wasn't, it's always, excluding prehistoric times, been the generally held belief that the world is round.

a technicality, Kal, you got the point.

And I do believe the morning after pill should be possible, as well as abortion in an early stage. Imagine if you're not in a situation in which a child can be raised properly, or if you do not want it, or want to go through the pains of giving birth if you're not keeping it, or if you don't want someone else to have your child, then what?

The morning after pill, sure, terminating the pregnancy before the second month, something I personally don't believe in, but I'm not going to say that a couple of cells is a person.

I don't think I could give my child up for adoption ever.

But killing the lil bugger ain't that big a deal right?

Hmpf. Adoption. How easy do you think that is? Think the child will have a happy youth if he spends half his life in an orphanage?

More likely a foster home, which does need reform, but that's another issue. I had a couple friends who were adopted, dealt with the usual foster care shit, but if you asked them, I'm sure they'd tell you that they'd rather have not been aborted

It's traumatic for the mother and the child. When someone 16-20 years old has a child, it ruins their life and their child's life. They have to deal with rejection by their peers, and the child has to deal with either going through the lackluster government orphanages or being raised by a mother not prepared for motherhood.

Hard for the mother? Tough shit, that's life, you do stupid shit, and that's what happens. Also, not only is it tough shit for the mother, it should be tough shit for the father.

Abortion is simply a medical procedure. I suppose we could say a fetus is "alive" when it has a brain wave, but until then, it's still a fetus. It is not alive. A fetus becomes a baby when it takes a breath, not before.

A line drawn not by science, logic, or reasoning, but simply because that's when the baby became something tangible.

[Comrade Kal]

No, it's always tangible. The truth is, there's no real clear line, but you have to draw one somewhere.

[Hostile]

Still not much difference in the idea of it's your body. If soft drugs were legalized it'b be the same idea as abortion.

People are going to do drugs/have abortions whether it's legal or not. So why not make it legal and regulate it.

Lesson should be learned when the US tried to ban alcohol in the early part of this century.

[MSpencer]

Life is not defined as the creation of a zygote, life is quite different.

[ZeroSamuraiX]

Kal wat are u talkin about?
i mean when the sperm cell and the egg cell merge or fuse, that is when life exists

[MSpencer]

Not as defined in medicine. Do you have a source, or are you just trying to refute years of common medical knowledge?

[ZeroSamuraiX]

um i have no source, jus my highschool education lol

[MSpencer]

Well, you're wrong. Thought I'd let you know.

[Hostile]

I happen to agree with him to an extent. Who are you (MSpencer) to define when the baby starts? Along with medical doctors who tell me when life starts when they only speculate themselves.

You live by hard facts, than show the fact in medical science of a number of doctors who all agree life starts at some particular point. And I'll show you just as many who disagree.

Does life start when the bullet hits the bone, or at 3 months, or perhaps 6 months, or at first gasp. None of us here are qualified to determine that point, which makes it a moot point.

[ComradeJ]

So, nobody can decide when someone really starts becoming a person. Sure, you can say that when a sperm and egg cell merge they become one, but that's just a cell, not that different from the millions of skincells you lose each day. Is that mass genocide?

Why not just use the old, accepted idea that when mother and child are seperated and the baby takes care of it's own breathing, eating and drinking that he becomes a person? Isn't that just the easiest thing to do, if the alternatives don't offer a better solution?

[MSpencer]

That has been universally accepted as the time that life begins by medical doctors. Yes, zygotes are living cells, but living cells do not fit our definition of life.

In biology, a life form has traditionally been considered to be a member of a population whose members can exhibit all the following phenomena at least once during their existence:

  1. Growth, full development, maturity
  2. Metabolism, consuming, transforming and storing energy/mass; growing by absorbing and reorganizing mass; excreting waste
  3. Motion, either moving itself, or having internal motion
  4. Reproduction, the ability of individuals to create entities that are similar to, but separate from, themselves
  5. Response to stimuli - the ability to measure properties of its surrounding environment, and act upon certain conditions. This property is also called homeostasis.
  6. Cells, a basic unit of reproduction

1. A fetus is not mature, but does grow.
2. A fetus does not consume food directly, but relies on the parent to provide food internally.
3. A zygote does not move, a fetus does.
4. Neither a zygote or fetus reproduces until much later in life.
5. Zygotes and fetuses respond to stimuli.
6. Zygotes and fetuses consist of cells.
Therefore, by the definition of life, a fetus is not alive.
An example which they teach in biology class is fire. Fire consumes oxygen and matter, grows, reproduces, moves, and responds to stimuli, but is not alive because it does not have cells.

Edited by MSpencer, 30 December 2005 - 05:07 PM.

[Ash]

Let me put this very clear.
What person would even want to carry and give birth to the child of a rapist?
Be reminded every single second of that horrible thing that happened..
Indeed.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

a paradox
there can be no solution that will satisfy both sides, unfortunately

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This is why the pro-abortion stance is called pro-choice. It doesn't force EVERYONE to have an abortion, nor does it FORCE the baby to be born to a family that doesn't want it. The satisfactory argument is that abortion should be legal in more or less the same state it currently is.

Why?

BECAUSE YOU DO NOT HAVE TO GO FOR AN ABORTION IF YOU DO NOT WANT TO.

Nobody has a gun to your head, forcing you to have the foetus extracted from your womb and destroyed, do they? That said, nobody forced you into dipping your wick uncovered.

While there is an ethical dilemma surrounding the argument, to be sure, I would like to know who you are, ZeroSamurai, to decide what a mother does with her child. Would you attempt to control how she brings up her child in the future? If she had any sense if you tried, she'd tell you to fuck yourself and possibly hit you. I would. It's her child, not yours. When the child breathes free air, it is a human being. Until then it is a parasite living off her resources. It lives off the food she piles into her mouth. The oxygen it receives is given to it from the mother's bloodstream. When it feeds, it feeds on HER FOOD. When it moves, it moves against HER WOMB. When it pisses, SHE HELPS.

While I might indeed say 'It's your own fault for having sex without a rubber on', I still classify it as her choice what she does. If it is born, it is within her rights to put it up for adoption, too. But in my view, as ComradeJ said, that's a fate more cruel than aborting it in the womb before it has a chance of life. At least the aborted child never met the ills of the world knowingly. It never had to consciously cope with its mother's rejection. With the lifelong knowledge that it had been abandoned by the one who birthed it. To know in its heart that it's unwanted and unloved. Sure, it might gain a foster-family, but I don't care what you say, that's no true substitute for a real parent. After all, they can never truly love it as if it was their own.

Why when the sperm cell reaches the egg? If we follow that path, how many times have you had a wank in your life? So how many billions of deaths does that make you responsible for? And even if you concieved a child, you'd murder all the other sperm!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

*Montypython* Every sperm is sacred, every sperm is great...when a sperm is wasted, God gets quite irate...*Goes off into song*


My point is still there. I would much rather be aborted before I was born than abandoned after it by the two people on the planet who, by rights, should love me. I've lost one of my parents, but I am grateful beyond explanation to the one I have left. I don't agree with abortion, but by the same token, I'm a believer in 'your body, your choice'. I might not hold respect for most people who had an abortion, but I believe it is their choice to do so, knowing, of sound mind, that they must bear the consequences on their conscience for the rest of their days.

[Silent_Killa]

2. A fetus does not consume food directly, but relies on the parent to provide food internally.

But it still does consume food, uses it for energy to grow, etc.

4. Neither a zygote or fetus reproduces until much later in life.

And neither will young children. The point is that they will be able to reproduce at some point in their lifespan.

[Ash]

4. Neither a zygote or fetus reproduces until much later in life.

And neither will young children. The point is that they will be able to reproduce at some point in their lifespan.

A zygote is a cell. I suppose you'll have a moral qualm against your own immune system. Please...

As said, the baby is a parasite for as long as it is in the womb. It may ingest food, but only because its bloodstream is hooked up to that of its mother. Just as yours would if you were hooked up to someone else's bloodstream.

At least a parasite has the ability to either suck the food out, or, if it's an internal one, has had to physically do something to get into the bloodstream or gut, and is actually having to brave it. The baby is just there by sheer virtue of chance.

To be honest, though, whether abortion is right or wrong, what right have you to judge the mother?

Edited by Comrade Jerkov, 03 January 2006 - 11:45 AM.

[Comrade Kal]

You give the argument that most children wouldn't have wanted to be aborted, but children that were born as the result of rape mostly wouldn't want to be aborted either. You've got to see things from the mother's perspective.

[Hostile]

This brings us back to the point of this discussion, if the laws are to be fair AND it is my body, than why are drugs illegal and suicide yet not abortion? IT's my body right and one should not be telling me what to do with MY body. Or am I missing something here.

One could think of course drugs are illigal because they cause hard to the body. Yet cigarettes and alcohol do as does abortion. I'm just not seeing the rules apllied to everyone fairly.

I'm not making an anit-abortion case, I'm making a "it's my body I'll do what I please" case. Some may argue that suicide is self destruction of the body and is wrong. So it piercings and tattoes, yet that is legal.

I'm ranting now, I think I've made my point.

[dancam]

I think the answer lies with religion. Throughout the last two millenia, mankind has been heavily influenced by those who preach religion. Whether you look at priests, or wise men, these people had influence, and helped people decide what was right or wrong. I think it's obvious by any token that all of these things can be viewed as wrongdoings, however, the demand for alcohol and cigarettes is far greater and have been present for a lot longer than modern drugs. It is more a case of attempting to limit an existing problem through awareness campaigns. The addiction is there for many people, it will not go away, so you just need to focus on prevention.

A far smaller number take drugs compared to smoking tobacco cigarettes. Therefore it is far easier to control a ban on such products. I think it's simply a matter of practicality.

With regards to suicide, its a bit of a moot point really, because whether its legal or not, what exactly are they gonna do to people who have committed suicide? Lock their dead body up? lol

[Silent_Killa]

A zygote is a cell. I suppose you'll have a moral qualm against your own immune system. Please...

As said, the baby is a parasite for as long as it is in the womb. It may ingest food, but only because its bloodstream is hooked up to that of its mother. Just as yours would if you were hooked up to someone else's bloodstream.

At least a parasite has the ability to either suck the food out, or, if it's an internal one, has had to physically do something to get into the bloodstream or gut, and is actually having to brave it. The baby is just there by sheer virtue of chance.

To be honest, though, whether abortion is right or wrong, what right have you to judge the mother?

My argument was less so for the zygote. The baby isn't there by chance, it's there due to fertalization of an egg because somebody didn't wrap it up.

You give the argument that most children wouldn't have wanted to be aborted, but children that were born as the result of rape mostly wouldn't want to be aborted either. You've got to see things from the mother's perspective.

It's a matter of responsibility, a victim of rape is not responsible for their pregnancy, someone having unprotected sex is responsible. You don't piss into the wind and not expect it to come back and hit you.

[i z 3 r]

The issue with abortion is extremely complicated and heated. I don't know where I stand on it, or how to begin feeling about it. But my traditional Cathloic values tells me that its killing a child... I say what the originator of the topic said. Its her body.

I do have a thought on why weed won't be legal here in the states.

1.) People are close minded and torn over the fact that its a "drug"
2.) Fact of the matter is, that it is indeed safe.
3.) You can't overdose, and statistically with DWI (Driving while intoxicated) crimes, car accidents are low, less then 8% of all car crashes are drug related. (Institute for Driving Safty).
4.) If they govt did make it legal, it would pour into this country like water on a sinking ship, and the goverment could in no way regulate it, or in idiot terms Tax it.
5.) Control and money are the issue, once they come up with a way to control the "weed market" it will be come legal, but I don't think that day will ever come

[Fingulfin]

Just a thought:

ba·by ( P ) Pronunciation Key (bb)
n. pl. ba·bies

• A very young child; an infant.
• An unborn child; a fetus.
• The youngest member of a family or group.
• A very young animal.

Question: Does this definition mean anything, or could a baby not be alive?