94 replies to this topic

[Creator]

Damn! I forgot to login. That "Guest" is me.

[thudo]

Player '<This Player>' gets $ 300
Player '<This Player>' gets $ 100
Player '<This Player>' gets $ 400

I see AI is cheater. Imagine human player gets $800 each 10 seconds. What great battle power he will have !!!

And do you know about this:

(in GameData.ini)
WeaponBonus = SOLO_AI_EASY  RATE_OF_FIRE  80%
WeaponBonus = SOLO_AI_NORMAL RATE_OF_FIRE  100%
WeaponBonus = SOLO_AI_HARD  RATE_OF_FIRE  120%
HumanSoloPlayerHealthBonus_Easy    = 150%
HumanSoloPlayerHealthBonus_Normal  = 100%
HumanSoloPlayerHealthBonus_Hard    = 80%

This is another cheat for AI. So AI will be stronger not becouse it is clever. It is cheater.

Pleeaaazzzz! Its not like the AI is absolutely super-brilliant in both tactical analysis and strategic awareness!

THE SAGE AI MUST CHEAT - Period! Almost all RTS Skirmish AIs cheat.. Why? Because our CPUs and games are NOT yet powerful enough to think and behave, even irrationally, like a human player. There are not enough trigger/waypoints even on an EA-official map to make the AI use text-book battlefield maneuvers!

The SAGE AI cannot act like a person so thus we compensate him because to not do so will "severely retard" his effectiveness - period!

I get a strong sinking feeling I'll have to re-use and recycle this argument when it goes BETA. My AI is not super-impossible and especially for Pro Players it'll be bloody fun as shiet especially with each of the 12 factions having some sort of quirks thrown in.

Trust me: giving a USA General the ability to make drones for vehicles does not make him impossible! This USA General is meant to be a Tank Rusher and I'm excentuating that! Plus.. because two of his "wicked tanks" are not often seen in ZH like they were in Generals so I want to bring that out.

If the Beta testers feel he's too overpowering I'll cut him down. Its not like I'm gonna make the USA SupW General fly multiple Alpha Auroras that will totally anhiliate an enemy base in 2 minutes or a USAF AI with 10-15 Stealth Comaches in a Horde! heheh.. I've seen both those before and it wasn't pretty so I balanced them.

So in summation = SAGE AI needs assistance and bonuses BUT that does not make it impossible to win again. No current game/CPU can do true battlefield tactics yet. That day will come with a better game engine and 10Ghz machines but for now we compensate best we can.

[Creator]

You talk like you know an algorythm that require 10Ghz.

Things are not as complex as you think. Some years ago I made bots for first Quake. They were good (but not exellent). The main is they were not cheaters!!!

Mithril called you "master scripter". I thought you know how to make AI that will not have a need to cheat the game, but I was wrong.

My opinion is: Better to make AI that will not cheat (does not matter if it is stupid or clever). If player want more difficult gameplay he must play against more than one computer (difficultly settings better to be cut).

[Mithril]

Creator, when I said thudo is a Master Scripter I've been saying it consciously and intently. The magnitude of the cheating is what matters - I'd also love to script an AI that works just like a human - but you simply can't yet! The waypoints for example. You'd have to make a quadrillion waypoints on each map to simulate a player's mind. And that is only the movement of objects - for example the AI always builds in a specified order, the build list, while the player can choose where to build stuff according to the current situation.

The human player also captures enemy buildings at times.

Of course some of this could be implemented to a certain degree - but only that far. I've always disliked the word "impossible" , until I realised a very weighing truth:

If you say everything is possible, then you must also accept that a particular thing can be "impossible".

This is so true it hurts when you understand it. <_<


Anyways, about the overlord bunker garrison, I may (in case we become desperate) have a slight INI solution there - make the upgrade use a ReplaceObject module so that the overlord has a transport initially, but ONLY when the upgrade is purchased - as opposed to having to add an object to the base overlord and therefore disallow teams to enter it properly.

This is a last resort though.. as it would be a bit untidy. Let's see if we can come up with a better solution.

[thudo]

Creator, when I said thudo is a Master Scripter I've been saying it consciously and intently. The magnitude of the cheating is what matters - I'd also love to script an AI that works just like a human - but you simply can't yet! The waypoints for example. You'd have to make a quadrillion waypoints on each map to simulate a player's mind. And that is only the movement of objects - for example the AI always builds in a specified order, the build list, while the player can choose where to build stuff according to the current situation.

The human player also captures enemy buildings at times.

Of course some of this could be implemented to a certain degree - but only that far. I've always disliked the word "impossible" , until I realised a very weighing truth:

If you say everything is possible, then you must also accept that a particular thing can be "impossible".

This is so true it hurts when you understand it.  <_<


Anyways, about the overlord bunker garrison, I may (in case we become desperate) have a slight INI solution there - make the upgrade use a ReplaceObject module so that the overlord has a transport initially, but ONLY when the upgrade is purchased - as opposed to having to add an object to the base overlord and therefore disallow teams to enter it properly.

This is a last resort though.. as it would be a bit untidy. Let's see if we can come up with a better solution.

As long as that doesn't effect the HUMAN player's experience when using a CHINA Overlord (can't imagine what feedback I would get if all of a sudden you could garrison an Overlord without the Bunker upgrade) then thats a good workaround.

Getting frustrated with this. It should have worked. What the hell is this PORTABLE_STRUCTURE crap? They should have made it as easy as any TRANSPORT. Idiots!

Well.. at least the BattleBus works.. Actually works REAL WELL! Damn.. quite the site to see them hunt in packs and the AI uses them quite innovatively: they can fire at multiple targets at once. Real cool.

[Mithril]

The EA dudes decided to use an added transport probably because they wanted to add the bunker graphics to it. Because both of the other upgrades are an addon as well they may have wanted it to be straight after all. Unfortunately for us, this makes direct script commands somehow impossible concerning garrison.

They should've made a TransportContain, with a StartsOnActive and Upgrade line so that the module is enabled when you purchase the upgrade.. but NOOH those .. well anyway they've been given enough names over the past

About the INI solution: I'll test this today and see if it works right. Because the overlord with the bunker doesn't have more geometry than the base one, there should be no real problem getting it to work.

[thudo]

The EA dudes decided to use an added transport probably because they wanted to add the bunker graphics to it. Because both of the other upgrades are an addon as well they may have wanted it to be straight after all. Unfortunately for us, this makes direct script commands somehow impossible concerning garrison.

They should've made a TransportContain, with a StartsOnActive and Upgrade line so that the module is enabled when you purchase the upgrade.. but NOOH those .. well anyway they've been given enough names over the past

About the INI solution: I'll test this today and see if it works right. Because the overlord with the bunker doesn't have more geometry than the base one, there should be no real problem getting it to work.

Let me know! I taped out all 12 faction bases and they look incredible hot! Using Madskillz's app I believe I have perfected each of the 12 factional bases now! Looking real good and well defended now. I thought I initially had an issue with bases on the bottom of maps (as opposed to the top which seemed to look fine) but its not a biggie anymore.

Btw, I noticed the GLA is much slower at repairing their buildings when damaged. I wonder if it has something to do with there being no direct reference to them in the AIDATA.INI

AIDozerBoredRadiusModifier = 8.0 ; Multiplier to dozer scan radius for repair & mine clearing. 2.0 means ai uses twice the radius as human dozers.

Now if there was one for the GLA Worker that would allow his CC's to live longer. As it stands, I'm not sure there is a script for GLA Workers to repair buildings faster. :so:

Keep me posted on the Overlord garrisoning issue - its no real biggie. People were questioning me on whether its worth doing anyway because noone really does it. Its more a fad than being tactically-sound. Whats the point, when one can just send 4-6 Overlords upgraded with Gatts and Props and tis all!

I kinda look at it as a technical accomplishment like the BombTruck although the Bombtruck is super-tactically sound and highly effective if it can disguise.

[Mithril]

Works! Tiny drawback: when you tell the overlord to shoot and the upgrade is completed the overlord stops to shoot for a moment and attempts to move a bit, but it doesn't look too strange really.

It works just as it should, I buy the upgrade, the overlord gets 5 transport contain slots! You'd only have to change the model of the new overlord unit and add the bunker to it...I can do that, as well as send you the complete code if you want.

[thudo]

Works! Tiny drawback: when you tell the overlord to shoot and the upgrade is completed the overlord stops to shoot for a moment and attempts to move a bit, but it doesn't look too strange really.

It works just as it should, I buy the upgrade, the overlord gets 5 transport contain slots! You'd only have to change the model of the new overlord unit and add the bunker to it...I can do that, as well as send you the complete code if you want.

Please! I'll give it a shot and see how it preforms in combat! SUPERB! :w00t0: :w00t0:

[thudo]

No! The first piece of code (the ReplaceObject thing) must go inside the overlord's code, under some other module, and the other code must be a completely new object, which means after the last End of the overlord's code..

Read my last post.. I edited it to make a comment about yours.

Btw.. I totally redid all the UNIT camoes throughout the game! (ie. USA SupW had some units showing a greyed-out Composite Armour Upgrade cameo).. So I cleaned all 12 factions and it looks so much better now! For example, all Chinese Helix Choppers now show a NapalmBomb Upgrade Cameo AND the China Infantry General's HELIX has just the NapalmBomb Upgrade Cameo because the other three upgrades he doesn't get. Silly EA!

Now I just need to get the HELIX to drop bombs and I'm set! hehe

[Mithril]

Yeah but the thing with the overlord bunker is that the player does this too! If, for example, a hero overlord with about 10% health buys the upgrade it will jump to 100% health again without any veterancy... And another issue is that the bunker model on top of the overlord is not displayed....damn this was too experimental after all. At least I've double checked the bomb truck thing and will implement it now to see if it actually works - it does in theory.

[Mithril]

No! The first piece of code (the ReplaceObject thing) must go inside the overlord's code, under some other module, and the other code must be a completely new object, which means after the last End of the overlord's code..

[thudo]

Yeah but the thing with the overlord bunker is that the player does this too! If, for example, a hero overlord with about 10% health buys the upgrade it will jump to 100% health again without any veterancy... And another issue is that the bunker model on top of the overlord is not displayed....damn this was too experimental after all. At least I've double checked the bomb truck thing and will implement it now to see if it actually works - it does in theory.

Hrrrmmm.. well at least you finally got the Overlord + Bunker to garrison troops in it. At least we got something. Something to work towards.

[RVMECH]

You guys realize of course that this will cause a mismatch online. :(

[thudo]

Even if both sides have the inis? Hmm this started out so well and now.. heh damn

BTW thudo why does the solution with the two teams merging not work? Or is there some hidden drawback to it?

I'll be trying a little more seriously creating two teams (1 Overlord) + (4-5 Troops) and see how they merge together.. Here are the scripts for them:

Team Name: Overlord Garrison Team1 (this is the Overlord)
On Create: China Overlord Bunker
*** IF ***
True.
*** THEN ***
100.00% of Team '<This Team>' perform Ability 'Command_UpgradeChinaOverlordBattleBunker'.
Set Flag named 'Overlord Has A Bunker' to TRUE


Team Name: Overlord Troop Garrison Team1 (these are the troops)
On Create: China Garrison Team Build
*** IF ***
Flag named 'China Barracks Is Building' IS FALSE
*AND* Flag named 'Overlord Has A Bunker' IS TRUE
*AND* Team '<This Team>' has one or more units.
*** THEN ***
Team '<This Team>' begins guarding area '[Skirmish]MyInnerPerimeter'


Team Name: Overlord Troop Garrison Team1
Script: China Garrison Team Behaviour
*** IF ***
True.
*** THEN ***
Team '<This Team>' executes Script 'China Garrison Team Orders' sequentially.


Team Name: Overlord Troop Garrison Team1
Script: China Garrison Team Orders
*** IF ***
True.
*** THEN ***
Team '<This Team>' will move towards the nearest 'ChinaTankOverlordBattleBunker' within area '[Skirmish]MyInnerPerimeter'
Team '<This Team>' garrison a nearby building.
Team '<This Team>' merges onto Team 'Overlord Garrison Team1'
Team '<This Team>' begins hunting.

Looking good? Both Overlord and Troop can be created at _CHINA_WAVE_1ST_H so I think this should work fine as the Overlord will wait there until the troop team is build and executes its commands to merge with the now Bunkered Overlord.

Sound good? Do I need to edit anything in the ChinaVehicle.INI or leave it as default? No need to add TRANSPORT to the BattleBunker or Overlord?

[Mithril]

I suggest you first try it without - if it does nothing then try adding it to the battle bunker overlord addon. If that doesnt work add it to both. But for the first go I think you can leave the chinavehicle.ini unedited..

[thudo]

I suggest you first try it without - if it does nothing then try adding it to the battle bunker overlord addon. If that doesnt work add it to both. But for the first go I think you can leave the chinavehicle.ini unedited..

I'll give it a shot and let ya know!

[Creator]

I see I'm late. Sorry.

As for cheating AI: Lets make the summary. Script-based AI is very limited. Better to make AI using C++, but it is impossible for Generals. Discussion is over.

As for Overlord bunker: To avoid problems you have you can slightly modify overlord code.

Behavior = ReplaceObjectUpgrade ModuleTag_Addon05
ReplaceObject = ChinaTankOverlordWithBunker
TriggeredBy = Upgrade_ChinaOverlordBunker
End

This turns overlord into generic transport.

[Mithril]

Creator! Thats exactly what we tried! The problem is though that when you do that, the generic transport overlord gets no bunker graphics and 100% health again when the upgrade is completed - as well as probably loosing veterancy and such.