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#1 Comrade Kal

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Posted 01 January 2006 - 06:48 PM

I am a communist.

I see it as the only way of creating a completely fair society, and the only way to creating a near-perfect society.

But people disagree with me. I've heard several arguments against it, lots of people disagree with the principles, don't think it can be done, whatever. Not everyone is a communist.

But why are people scared of communism? Many people seem to have an irrational fear of communism, even more than the fear of fascism. Is this more than simply cold-war propaganda? To the Hostiles of this forum - what's to fear with communism? You have your right to disagree, but why fear it? Why do communist countries deserve to be attacked? They're generally quite peaceful once they've been established, and America was by far the biggest aggressor in the cold war.

Quite simply - why are you so terrified of it?
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#2 Tom

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Posted 01 January 2006 - 07:03 PM

Fear of Tyranny Kal. People want freedom. Centralisation of power is only the opposite. People need to decentralise power and liberate themselves, you cannot make people liberate themselves. They must choose. Fairness and equality can come from equal chances and choices in a balanced and open society.

#3 Samael

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Posted 01 January 2006 - 07:04 PM

You DAMN Communist :wacko: .

I would say something wrose but people here would post that Commuist is sort of a good thing, then I'll get confused and shut up about it.

But I do ask why are we scared of the word communist. Is it the back around the ones who used the type of gov't like Stalin and Lennin or is is it some else.

So Yes this is a good question. :p

But why are people scared of communism? Many people seem to have an irrational fear of communism, even more than the fear of fascism. Is this more than simply cold-war propaganda? To the Hostiles of this forum - what's to fear with communism? You have your right to disagree, but why fear it? Why do communist countries deserve to be attacked? They're generally quite peaceful once they've been established, and America was by far the biggest aggressor in the cold war.


Edited by Samael, 01 January 2006 - 07:05 PM.


#4 Comrade Kal

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Posted 01 January 2006 - 07:08 PM

I'm sorry? Communism is all about decentralisation, The Soviet Union was (theoretically - it didn't, and i'm talking ideology rather than the USSR) supposed to end up a collection of city-states bound by the same governmental system.

Communism is all about freedom and ending oppression.

And to Samael, it's easy to point out Stalin, but he was a dictator. Hitler was a capitalist, but I don't say "All capitalist governments kill Jews!"

Edited by Kal, 01 January 2006 - 07:13 PM.

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#5 Samael

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Posted 01 January 2006 - 07:15 PM

Communism is all about freedom and ending oppression.

And thats why I get confused. If Communsim is good then why can't the US see it that way. Is it that the US gov't to evil and blind by greed of money and consuming more land to control or what?

And to Samael, it's easy to point out Stalin, but he was a dictator. Hitler was a capitalist, but I don't say "All capitalist governments kill Jews!"

If that is true then that makes Capitalist a frist step to Fascist.

Edited by Samael, 01 January 2006 - 07:18 PM.


#6 Ash

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Posted 01 January 2006 - 07:15 PM

Fear of Tyranny Kal. People want freedom. Centralisation of power is only the opposite. People need to decentralise power and liberate themselves, you cannot make people liberate themselves. They must choose. Fairness and equality can come from equal chances and choices in a balanced and open society.

How do you work that out? Communism, true Communism, is the policy I've explained to you before. There is no 'centralisation of power' because there is no 'power'. Everyone is equal, everyone works for the society, rather than for a reward. By their working, they earn the right to reap the rewards of everyone else's work. Similarly, other people reap the rewards of his work. Each person gets, naturally, their own share, while also getting a fair share of each other person's.

In Capitalist, aka Democratic society, you have kingpins at the top. There is someone in control. Whereas in Communism, there is no such individual or group in charge.

But I do ask why are we scared of the word communist. Is it the back around the ones who used the type of gov't like Stalin and Lennin or is is it some else.

Even in Communist countries where Stalin and Lenin were not in charge, the USA's afraid. Granted, no country has ever done it right, but still. Lots of people seem to have an abject fear of the idea.

Edited by Comrade Jerkov, 01 January 2006 - 07:17 PM.


#7 Samael

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Posted 01 January 2006 - 07:20 PM

Even in Communist countries where Stalin and Lenin were not in charge, the USA's afraid. Granted, no country has ever done it right, but still. Lots of people seem to have an abject fear of the idea.

Then what makes Communism so good and makes Capitalism so bad.

#8 Shuya-Lee

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Posted 01 January 2006 - 07:21 PM

i think communism is a fantastic idea but also, it would never work. or it could if the country were to slowly fall into it. to instantly change britian into a communism then all hell would break loose but if it was done over time it would work well.

i dont think its the loss of freedom we are scared of i think its just because we were brainwashed to hate it since the cold war. america is just trying to make everyone the same and to try and rule the world. thats why they attacked the soviets to "abolish" communism.

#9 Comrade Kal

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Posted 01 January 2006 - 07:36 PM

Well the USA even had a fear of socialism, like Nicaragua, which was a poor country. Then the Sandinistas took control, and they had great healthcare and education. Then America invaded for absolutely no reason and today, they're the 2nd poorest country in the western hemisphere.

Communism and Stalinism are totally different, because the path to communism means you need to be more liberal, whereas Stalin was the opposite. Communism is much better than capitalism because it abolishes currency, the main obstacle in the way of creating a free and equal society. It prevents people from being oppressed and forced to work for far longer than necessary for the benefit of people above them who do less work.
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#10 Tom

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Posted 01 January 2006 - 07:44 PM

I'm sorry? Communism is all about decentralisation, The Soviet Union was (theoretically - it didn't, and i'm talking ideology rather than the USSR) supposed to end up a collection of city-states bound by the same governmental system.

I believe marxism does it wrong. I do believe in equality and freedom however you cannot get it by centralisation. Marxism talks of centralising power, centralising the economy so then you can dissolve the government all together and get people proactive. But once someone has that much power who is really going to give it up? Its unlikely they will give it up, hence what happened to the soviet union.

Communism is all about freedom and ending oppression.

I agree and i'm glad you believe in such principles, well i knew you did anyway, we use to have such discussions.

And to Samael, it's easy to point out Stalin, but he was a dictator. Hitler was a capitalist, but I don't say "All capitalist governments kill Jews!"

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hitler was a Fascist, his fascism was national socialism, severe centralisation in the form of major authoritarian socialism.

Again i believe the problem is not infact "capitalism," or "socialism" or "communism" it is CENTRALISATION. Taking responsibility out of peoples hands, taking away their power and giving it to the few elite. What do you suppose would have happened if the Soviets "won" the cold war? It would be similar to America, obviously with soviet idealism and they would be working towards their own part in the New World Order. The "ISMs" are the arrogance to believe that the selected ideology is the only one that is appropriate for people and not allowing people to decide. If people stopped being "communIST" or "capitalIST" or "socialIST" they would be themselves. The destruction of induviduality bands all humans together in stereotypes, which totally undermines life. You are here on this planet as yourSELF not as a "human." You may be a human but your still yourself inside. To destroy that and become a stereotype, destroys rationality and the ability of humans to see people as equal. Stereotyping will always cause "difference" and "divide," induviduality will help people realise they exist as themselves and can be whatever they wish to be within society. When people understand that they also respect everyone elses rights to be themselves and become what they wish. That is freedom in the sense of oppressing the person.

How do you work that out? Communism, true Communism, is the policy I've explained to you before. There is no 'centralisation of power' because there is no 'power'. Everyone is equal, everyone works for the society, rather than for a reward.

I agree, but i'm saying you cannot get there by forcing people, they have to choose. If you work to force people you are infact centralising power. You need to release the power back to the people and allow them to recreate society in a free and more understanding way. I do agree with your points however ash, you know i do.

By their working, they earn the right to reap the rewards of everyone else's work. Similarly, other people reap the rewards of his work. Each person gets, naturally, their own share, while also getting a fair share of each other person's.

Yes and people become more open and creative. Creativity is a sign of love for a certain art or objective. Like you and your stories. You LOVE to write and therefore become creative in doing so. Destroying creativity by branding people in stereotypes makes them morbid, hateful and oppressed. Humanity needs love, Creation is love. The purpose is give people the choice.

A point: Why do i need a degree to be able to teach? I know i can teach and i know i can teach well. Teaching has become purely about knowledge rather than experience and wisdom. We all know knowledge but i personally believe knowledge without wisdom is corruptable power. Kids need experience, from experience they gain wisdom, with wisdom they recreate society into a loving and compassionately free society.

In Capitalist, aka Democratic society, you have kingpins at the top. There is someone in control.

Yes, but the "democratic" view is simply bullshit. Democracy doesn't exist. Your basically choosing which half of the countries elite you wish to have ruling you. Its pretty much worthless. In america democrat and republicans are pretty much the same people, just in a "divided" state to mislead people into believing they are free. Freedom cannot come from ridiculous acts such as that.

Whereas in Communism, there is no such individual or group in charge.

Agreed, but to get there people need to be educated, taught the truth and truth is the ability to CHOOSE. Truth is free will, truth is love. People are so deluded nowadays in to thinking they have no power. Ask someone in the street what they thing is the main problem in society and how they could fix it. They would prolly suggest a problem however say "what can one man do?" Ask 80 people, they would be the same "what can one man do?"

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80 people with the same view that they are powerless, but if they realised they had the power, you got a group of dedicated people working towards sorting society. 1 becomes 2, 2 becomes 2000, 2000 becomes 2million. So on.

People need to be taught their rights. The riduculous amount of ignorance over our rights within our countries is a great reason why they are being taken away. A great reason why the bill of rights in america is being shite up and the same is happening in britain. Wasn't it george bush who refered to the constitution as "only goddamn piece of paper."

Even in Communist countries where Stalin and Lenin were not in charge, the USA's afraid. Granted, no country has ever done it right, but still. Lots of people seem to have an abject fear of the idea.

Coming back to the original story of the thread. Fear is a powerful ally. I remember this philosophy coming up within star wars: "Fear attracts the fearful, the weak, the strong, the corrupt and the powerful." Fear is a controlling element. Create fear you have power. Like in the matrix when morphous holds up the battery and says the robots are turning human beings into this. POWER. Get people fearful about an idea, even with no real basis, you have control over them and can call upon that idea OVER and OVER again like during the cold war. "The communists" *Scream* Next thing you know theres millions of people being slaughtered in Vietnam.

Problem-reaction-solution: The problem: Communism, the reaction: Oh my god (fear) solution: lets attack. Power is that. If you want something done you MAKE the problem and fear naturally gives you the power to implement your "solution" or what you wanted to do originally.

This is why people fear communism, propaganda about it through the cold war. There ALWAYS has to be an enemy and distraction, otherwise people begin to realise those in power are not really powerful at all but are infact the real danger to the country. Hence the 2nd cold war, terrorism. Another false/invisible enemy based on "terrorist attacks" to create fear and allowing you to pass your agenda immediately.

#11 Ash

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Posted 01 January 2006 - 07:57 PM

I believe marxism does it wrong. I do believe in equality and freedom however you cannot get it by centralisation. Marxism talks of centralising power, centralising the economy so then you can dissolve the government all together and get people proactive. But once someone has that much power who is really going to give it up? Its unlikely they will give it up, hence what happened to the soviet union.

I agree, it ended up messed up, but it's not centralisation. It's dissolution.

Hitler was a Fascist, his fascism was national socialism, severe centralisation in the form of major authoritarian socialism.

And look where it got the world. Everyone fears Communism, when the opposite can yield much, much worse.

Again i believe the problem is not infact "capitalism," or "socialism" or "communism" it is CENTRALISATION. Taking responsibility out of peoples hands, taking away their power and giving it to the few elite.

Which is exactly what democracy does. In Communism, THERE IS NO GOVERNMENT. There is no authority.

What do you suppose would have happened if the Soviets "won" the cold war?

The same thing that happened in the USSR in real life. They weren't as Communist as they thought they were. They weren't Communist because there was still someone in power.

All the rest didn't seem relevant, so i won't respond to it :wacko:

I agree, but i'm saying you cannot get there by forcing people, they have to choose. If you work to force people you are infact centralising power. You need to release the power back to the people and allow them to recreate society in a free and more understanding way. I do agree with your points however ash, you know i do.

We're not talking about actually DOING it. We're referring to why people fear the ideal. Soviet Union does NOT equal Communism.

Yes and people become more open and creative. Creativity is a sign of love for a certain art or objective. Like you and your stories. You LOVE to write and therefore become creative in doing so. Destroying creativity by branding people in stereotypes makes them morbid, hateful and oppressed. Humanity needs love, Creation is love. The purpose is give people the choice.

What's stereotype got to do with this? Or love? or anything else? You're going off on a million bad and irrelevant tangents, mate.

A point: Why do i need a degree to be able to teach? I know i can teach and i know i can teach well. Teaching has become purely about knowledge rather than experience and wisdom. We all know knowledge but i personally believe knowledge without wisdom is corruptable power. Kids need experience, from experience they gain wisdom, with wisdom they recreate society into a loving and compassionately free society.

I don't disagree with this. But what it has to do with Communism, I don't know. Under my education system this'd be sorted...but I don't see what it has to do with anything here. It's a totally separate thread.

Yes, but the "democratic" view is simply bullshit. Democracy doesn't exist. Your basically choosing which half of the countries elite you wish to have ruling you. Its pretty much worthless. In america democrat and republicans are pretty much the same people, just in a "divided" state to mislead people into believing they are free. Freedom cannot come from ridiculous acts such as that.

Exactly. And in Communism there is no government. Society is autonomous and requires no regulation.

Agreed, but to get there people need to be educated, taught the truth and truth is the ability to CHOOSE. Truth is free will, truth is love. People are so deluded nowadays in to thinking they have no power. Ask someone in the street what they thing is the main problem in society and how they could fix it. They would prolly suggest a problem however say "what can one man do?" Ask 80 people, they would be the same "what can one man do?"

Then change the mindset. That is the ONLY thing between true communism and success.

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Edited by Comrade Jerkov, 01 January 2006 - 08:10 PM.


#12 Tom

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Posted 01 January 2006 - 08:18 PM

i dont think its the loss of freedom we are scared of i think its just because we were brainwashed to hate it since the cold war. america is just trying to make everyone the same and to try and rule the world. thats why they attacked the soviets to "abolish" communism.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I find it ironic that our societies are slowly turning into controlled markets today through corporations and people still refer to our countries as "capitalist." WE are becoming what we were against, controlled markets and then fascism/communism. This is not the "doing" of the New World Order, it is us allow them to centralise power in such a way and being so ignorant to it. We are more concerned with "reality" and running around after ourselves trying to survive in a world gone mad than realise we are the "world gone mad."

Then what makes Communism so good and makes Capitalism so bad.

The same thing that makes capitalism so good and communism so bad. OPINION.

I agree, it ended up messed up, but it's not centralisation. It's dissolution.

The soviet union was centralised. The people was oppressed. Centralisation is simply that, removing power from peoples hands. I know what your point is ash but i'm stating people need to choose to change not be forced too. Change happens from generation to generation, not instantly. If someone started to educate and modify the system now so that we could educate in a different style then the next generation may very well change society for the better.

And look where it got the world. Everyone fears Communism, when the opposite can yield much, much worse.

There was no difference between Stalinism and Nazism, just illusion. As there is no difference between capitalism and the stereotypical communism, just illusion. Both believe in control, fear to use that control and gain. The difference is amazing. :wacko:

Which is exactly what democracy does. In Communism, THERE IS NO GOVERNMENT. There is no authority.

I KNOW. WHAT ARE YOU SHOUTING AT!? :p The authority is the people. I do believe you need somewhat a VERY small government to retain laws such as murder, thief etc for obvious reasons, but the police force should be decentralised to communities and areas. Else we get assholes like Sir Ian Blair leading the whole bloody country and isolating london to "shoot to kill" policies.

We're not talking about actually DOING it.

Then this topic has no purpose and deserves to be locked. You cannot critise if you have no other BETTER solution.

We're referring to why people fear the ideal. Soviet Union does NOT equal Communism

I know, but the SOVIET UNION was the BASE for propaganda of communism.

What's stereotype got to do with this? Or love? or anything else? You're going off on a million bad and irrelevant tangents, mate.

Fear = Hate, Hope = Love. I think this is very relevant. Your talking about fear and hate so i wish to talk about hope and love. Balance is needed, a balanced society and a society full of love. What is society without love? Is it really that bad that humanity has lost ALL respect for itself and cannot love itself anymore. If so what is the purpose of society? Why are we living like we do? Why are we even discussing why people dispise "communism"?

But what it has to do with Communism, I don't know. Under my education system this'd be sorted...but I don't see what it has to do with anything here. It's a totally separate thread.

No it isn't/ What has this got to do with communism? EVERYTHING. You cannot implement a system if people don't want it. There are three ways to get people to want a system, indoctrination, "security" or choice. If you want people to stop hating communism you have to do more than preach the wrongs and rights. You must teach that everyone has the right to choose wrong and right and mistakes only help people gain wisdom and experience. This is very relevent.

Then change the mindset. That is the ONLY thing between true communism and success.

Exactly. But how do you change people? Answer that.

What the fuck is this squiggle? I've seen babies who EAT the crayons do better than that.

Use a better skin asshole :cool:

#13 Ash

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Posted 01 January 2006 - 09:28 PM

We're not talking about actually DOING it.

Then this topic has no purpose and deserves to be locked. You cannot critise if you have no other BETTER solution.

You missed the point. The point Kal was trying to make was that the moment someone mentions anything that's remotely Communist, you get the odd American member (and I don't mean to stereotype, but it is usually Americans that do it) who goes ZOMG! COMMUNISTS!!!
The point is, you can hardly say capitalism or democracy are doing a bang-up job. Granted, they might be doing a bit better than the USSR did, but then so did the feudal kings of days past. And anyone who said that there should be one ruler by divine right would be classed as a psychopath or a despot. Nobody can really even say Communism doesn't work, because nobody's ever seen it happen. Indeed, with the wrong mindset it doesn't work. Lenin and Stalin did it totally wrong anyway. They drew all power to themselves and then did not give it back. The correct way is to dissolve power without placing it all directly into the hands of those with power. If you can regulate the government's power during the transition phase, there's much less danger of it ending up Stalinist.

I know, but the SOVIET UNION was the BASE for propaganda of communism.

No it wasn't. It was an attempt to make the ideal come off that went entirely wrong. It became a police state, governmental paranoia set in, and then Stalin took over. There was no hope of salvation, and things ended up more or less how they'd always been under the Tsars.

Fear = Hate, Hope = Love. I think this is very relevant. Your talking about fear and hate so i wish to talk about hope and love. Balance is needed, a balanced society and a society full of love. What is society without love? Is it really that bad that humanity has lost ALL respect for itself and cannot love itself anymore. If so what is the purpose of society? Why are we living like we do? Why are we even discussing why people dispise "communism"?

For one thing, you'll find 'hope' is the opposite of 'despair'. And while I do agree the correct unitarian society is one fuelled by love for one's fellows and for the society, and that Communism really doesn't care for such a thing (then again, neither does democracy or the Capitalist 'every man for himself'. Why do people hate and fear Communism was the question. Nobody loves a societal state. Why should they? People do need to be more considerate and caring. Capitalism teaches them not to be. Communism plainly doesn't care at all, which has surely got to be a step in the right direction :wacko:

No it isn't/ What has this got to do with communism? EVERYTHING. You cannot implement a system if people don't want it. There are three ways to get people to want a system, indoctrination, "security" or choice. If you want people to stop hating communism you have to do more than preach the wrongs and rights. You must teach that everyone has the right to choose wrong and right and mistakes only help people gain wisdom and experience. This is very relevent.

You'll find that almost nobody would choose the Communist system, purely because they've already been indoctrinated with the ideals of Capitalism, and the operant conditioning it has already placed upon them. You work, you get rewarded. Simple psychology, there. Communism does it slightly differently, if it were to be implemented correctly. It would not directly reward you with payment with which you go out and get your goods, instead it would give you direct access to those goods in return for your own. The job you would do would be your 'key' to open the 'lock' of access to those goods. Whether you're a farmer, factory worker or lawyer, you'd have the same rights to the goods. Unlike in the USSR where everyone was allocated a ration, or an alloted living space. Instead, think of it as a supermarket where everyone just takes whatever they need off the shelf and walks out of the door. On the one hand you might say 'well then you'll get greedy fatcats', but no, because the people would be taught to understand the value of the community. Since they would be altered to become much more selfless they would be more inclined to, as Detail would put it, share and care.

Exactly. But how do you change people? Answer that.

Indeed, therein lieth the flaw. But not a reason to fear and hate the Communist ideal. Which means you still haven't answered the question.

#14 Comrade Kal

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Posted 01 January 2006 - 11:13 PM

If ANYONE mentions the Soviet Union again I think i 'm going to cry. FORGET ABOUT IT! It wasn't even communism anyway!

You still haven't given a reason why you FEAR communism, because that is the whole point of the topic.

It's also rather hypocritical - you state that the "IST" mindset is what we should fear, yet you also say "What can one man do?" is stupid and people should unite as one.
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#15 Blodo

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Posted 02 January 2006 - 12:12 AM

The so-called "free market" is too free to be really free. I know, it's a paradox but that's exactly how it is in the world. Corporations can expand freely, consume smaller establishments, gain power and authority until a monopoly finally hits. It's inevitable. In the end it'll all be one big corporation = police state. Because corporations - they care for money, people are just a resource.

Without restrictions on the free market, the elimination of globalisation and more national politics regarding economy capitalism is going to be replaced by another type of government, such as authocracy. So before local warlords take matters into their own hands and use humanity's growing discontent with the current capitalist regimes, we should work towards at least improving the current democracy.

My idea would be to put food production and the entire industry into the hands of the government, while allowing services to be owned privately. The government would dictate the price on the primary resources, as well as how much of what gets produced each year. The government would care about the quality of their goods because in the end better quality makes the entire country stronger, as a democratic government has to care about it's citizens or they are quickly deseated. The private owned services would then buy the prime resources and convert them into products. The government would basically have control of the price of everything, because they control the primary resources needed to produce everything.

Think of it in this way:
Farmers produce wheat in giant farms set up by the government. The farmers are payed for their work with government money, the government provides the equipment etc.
Government sells the wheat to a mill and bakery where it is remade into bread.
The price should be reasonable, the products quality is good because a government has to provide good quality products or the citizens force it on them with their discontent. And since this is still a democracy, the government official in charge can be unseated quite easily.
Bakery sells the bread which is of better quality (and price as well probably) than any bread made by a capitalist society.

Think about it. It all makes sense, while the people still have the freedom they have today (in european countries at least). The economy needs to be controlled so people won't lose their freedoms by corporations. It's a grand reform, couple to that a better education system which (as Tom pointed out) teaches you to know and use your rights and you got grounds for the perfect country in modern terms.

I'm a realist. Conversion to real socialism can't be done just like that. It needs a first step, and that step is unseating the big corporations before something bad happens. Like what is happening in America just now.

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#16 Comrade Kal

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Posted 02 January 2006 - 12:50 AM

I think that you need interludes between capitalism and communism, and the type of socialism you describe there is definately one of them. That and the system Bertrand Russel advocated in "In praise of idleness", where we work for 4 hours a day.
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#17 Silent_Killa

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Posted 03 January 2006 - 03:40 AM

To say that the Soviet Union wasn't communism, or ideal communism is idiocy. It was communism in practice, and that's the only thing that matters, otherwise I get to say that all failures of capitalism weren't real capitalism. It doesn't matter how good it sounds on paper, none of that matters, all that matters is what happens in practice, you want examples of communism in real life, you have to look at countries such as North Korea, the old USSR, Cuba, China, Vietnam, etc.

I heard someone mention Hiter, Hitler was a socialist, he was centralizing the economy.

Now, getting down to why people fear communism. I think the majority of America fears communism because their most recent memory is of the government telling us that "the end of days is upon us as the soviet death machine readies it's nuclear weaponry!"

Do I fear communism? Maybe not in the traditional sense, but I would fight a communist regime with every ounce of my being. The reasoning for this is I dislike the idea of centralization, the idea of handing over the power to a single, small group of people. Control over the economy is the most powerful tool available, with it, you could leave people starving in the streets for political opposition as Stalin did, you can put millions to death without an ounce of military action. Perhaps the thing that scares me the most is the rise of power through money in the United States, the fact that those who control our government are the same who control our economy.
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#18 Comrade Kal

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Posted 03 January 2006 - 09:48 AM

Hitler wasn't a socialist. That's like saying modern Britain, or France, or Germany are socialist countries. They may have slight socialist policies such as nationalised health services, but to say they're 'socialist' is preposterous, like it would be to say Hitler was a socialist. Hitler was firmly a capitalist. Want more? Pinochet, capitalist. Mussolini, Capitalist (even worse, corporatist.)

People like Pol Pot, to give an example, used communism as an excuse to install themselves as dictators. They were nowhere near to being communist countries.

The cold war stuff is a load of rubbish. It's now believed because of propaganda that the Soviet Union was to blame, and while both sides were at fault, the US was the one actually attacking and invading countries (grenada, nicaragua, vietnam, bay of pigs... need i say more?)

As we have already stated, COMMUNISM ISN'T CENTRALISATION. It's the exact opposite. You don't hand over power to ANYONE. And would you rather have the state in charge of the economy or multinational corporations? It's plain to see that corporations never act out of the good of the people. They would kill any one of us if there were a clean profit in it.

Communism was defined by Marx, so if you can find me one state that has ever existed that adheres to the ideals of The Communist Manifesto, i'd be glad to look into it.

Edited by Kal, 03 January 2006 - 09:49 AM.

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#19 MSpencer

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Posted 03 January 2006 - 11:09 AM

The Soviet Union was the most centralized dictatorship in the history of the earth. There was nothing communist about it except for the collectivization of farms. That's communism in practice, they tried and failed. The same thing happened in China, but they didn't crash and leaned a little right and went to a nearly capitalist system, so now China has companies with names similar to Starbucks who charge $6 per cup of coffee (50 yuan), more than the average Chinese worker makes in a day. Capitalism at its best.

To say Hitler was a socialist is preposterous, the only reason why they were called the national socialists was to gain more exposure and perhaps trick people into voting for them thinking that they were a left leaning party. But still, Hitler did get power, and it was well after the the party was established. You make your own fate... they knew what was coming when they read Mein Kampf, it's all spelled out in there.
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#20 Comrade Kal

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Posted 03 January 2006 - 01:31 PM

The Soviet Union was the most centralized dictatorship in the history of the earth. There was nothing communist about it except for the collectivization of farms. That's communism in practice, they tried and failed.

Sorry, what was that? Oh yes, IT WASN'T COMMUNISM. Stalin never intended to create a communist state, he just wanted to be a dictator. Same as Adolf Hitler couldn't give a shit about capitalism. Communism wasn't to blame for the Soviet Union, Capitalism wasn't to blame for the third reich.

The same thing happened in China, but they didn't crash and leaned a little right and went to a nearly capitalist system, so now China has companies with names similar to Starbucks who charge $6 per cup of coffee (50 yuan), more than the average Chinese worker makes in a day. Capitalism at its best.

Mao was even worse than Stalin. Russia and China are the only real succeeding methods of communism, as all other communist states were based on them. I have no doubt that if Trotsky had taken power when Lenin died things would have been far better.
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