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Airforce Gen.


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#1 Casojin

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Posted 03 January 2006 - 04:18 AM

Let's post the Airforce Gen. early game improvement ideas.

I think we should put commanche stealth to level 1 not 3 and give the early raptor-liked plane more ammo or more armor (can't remember the name).

What do you guys think?
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#2 wolfshadow

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Posted 03 January 2006 - 05:14 AM

Lower the cost of airplanes... Big thing.

The name of the other Plane is the YF-23 Black Widow II, lost to the Raptor in the competition.

I think that the FB-22 should replace the F-117. F-117 has been operational since the 80's and is due for a replacement.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FB-22

http://www.globalsec...craft/fb-22.htm

With a payload of 30 250lb SDBs could be a great aircraft to use.

I like the idea of the Comanche either having the Stealth Upgrade available earlier, or removing the upgrade, and making it stealth to start with, and up the cost slightly, or keep it the same, to reflect the dropping cost that Pen. has talked about.

#3 Madin

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Posted 03 January 2006 - 09:04 AM

Delete the general.
Contra is not about air attacks.

#4 Guest_Guest_*

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Posted 03 January 2006 - 11:32 AM

delete air attacks? are you crazy?

#5 Pendaelose

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Posted 03 January 2006 - 02:43 PM

Delete the general.
Contra is not about air attacks.

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OMG thats a little radical... I serriusly have to disagree... I and several other people LOVE the airf general.
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Between now and the next polished release there should be very little new art work done. Instead the focus is on designing, testing, and fixing. the mod has always been so close to finished that its nearly criminal. I'd love to see this through to the end with a real community effort.


#6 M.E.C.H.

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Posted 03 January 2006 - 02:45 PM

Delete the general.
Contra is not about air attacks.

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Hehe even if it sounds crazy.... It is true guys, believe it or not :grin:
He is not completelly right, the true phrase is : "GENERALS IS NOT ABOUT AIR ATTACKS"

Now i will explain why:
In real war the planes are for weaking the enemy and to destroy strategical targets.. You cant hold a ground with aircraft :D And you cant wipe out a whole base with aircraft :)
I'm playing multiplayer games with 5-6 players in my house almost every day, and always the player who chooses airforce is weakening our enemies and we enter the enemys base with our ground forces :p
The best was the normal generals which americans had good ground (paladin) and excellent air force (aurora)...
You cant just have ONLY planes.... :)
The only way to live in a 1vs1 battle if you're airforce is by making rush and destroying all the dozers :sleep: :sleep: :sleep: In other way there is NOW WAY that you can live :p

Thats it, now as for what to do, i could say abjust the damage of X-JET... and put a better tank in lvl1
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#7 Phoenix911

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Posted 03 January 2006 - 03:03 PM

Actuly mech i want u to show me where it says it is not about air tactics? PLEASE do try.

Generals is a STRATAGY GAME, This basicly means u USE watever stratagy WORKS for you. Air forces is a tactic and so u can all go to hell if u think it is not aloud. Stratagy = stratagy, How about u ppl learn that instead of bitch ok.

I bet most of u only say remove the airforce gen cos u suck with them or u always lose when a humen player is fighting u. The airforce gen is my fav gen and should not be removed and the remix airforce gen is very good and u will see once it is released that the airforce gen can now hold his own.
This topic should be closed as it is not needed.
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#8 Pendaelose

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Posted 03 January 2006 - 03:55 PM

Actuly mech i want u to show me where it says it is not about air tactics? PLEASE do try.

Generals is a STRATAGY GAME, This basicly means u USE watever stratagy WORKS for you. Air forces is a tactic and so u can all go to hell if u think it is not aloud. Stratagy = stratagy, How about u ppl learn that instead of bitch ok.

I bet most of u only say remove the airforce gen cos u suck with them or u always lose when a humen player is fighting u. The airforce gen is my fav gen and should not be removed and the remix airforce gen is very good and u will see once it is released that the airforce gen can now hold his own.
This topic should be closed as it is not needed.

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I have to agree with Pheonix on this one. I also love AirF gen and have proven that even in multi-player you can kill other any other general if you out think the player. you CAN destroy an enemy base with air attacks. its rather easy with the right planes, and its incredibly easy to pin down enemy constrution with AirF. your enemy is crap if you won't let him build anything.

I will not close the topic until everyone has had thier say though. it was not a kill AirF topic, it was an improve airF topic

but I won't close it until
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Between now and the next polished release there should be very little new art work done. Instead the focus is on designing, testing, and fixing. the mod has always been so close to finished that its nearly criminal. I'd love to see this through to the end with a real community effort.


#9 Guest_Guest_*

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Posted 03 January 2006 - 04:08 PM

how about remove the airf warfactory and create new building for the heavy choppers to match the tank gen

#10 Capt.Drake

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Posted 03 January 2006 - 04:15 PM

Perhaps you can't hold the ground with aircraft, but you can defently make it very hard to get more ground for him, if you have air surpurity you can whatever you want, where you want and when you want, you can bring troops in the back of you enemy, Aircraft and choppers like the Apache and the A-10 can screw up enemy armor and make it easier for your troops and so on
Airforce should stay in

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#11 Pendaelose

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Posted 03 January 2006 - 06:13 PM

Simply put AirF general has to be played differently... but he is not helpless and is certainly not deservicing to be cut. He has more in common with stealth GLA than any other general... if you outthink your enemy and wage an agressive war of suppression AirF can be extreamly dangerous to any general. Air craft have a hard time holding a base line, but they can make it near imposible for an enemy tank column to make it to your base. Multi-player game not to long ago, 3 player free for all... between Myself, Shandrial, and Ronin (my friend). Shandrial bumm rushed ronin with a huge early game Laser USA tank rush. Ronin, AirF had several full airfields of XJets and not even one tank made it from her base to his. It wasn't that she did anything wrong at all, he just happned to use AirF correctly and demonstrated why AirF doesn't suck... you don't HAVE to fight in your own base to defend, and you can attack anywhere any time. These are both enourmus strenghts when used in concert togeather.

2-4 B52s with gaurd orders on the edge of a base can rain hell with complete contempt for the enemy. only Mig31s force any respect on the B52, and with some AA jets of your own thats pretty quicky fixed too. the B52s are hard pressed to destroy a base, but it does force the enemy to constantly build new defenses and more dozers. This costs time and money that you can exploit.

a mix of Raptors and Auroras can also put a solid hurting on borders. Supression is just as powerfull as brute force when played carfully, because a suppresed enemy has a MUCH harder time replacing key buildings and unit masses when they are attacked. If you have their undevided attention on the border trying to stop the hail of missiles they don't have time to build a new strategy center or war factory that your A10 strike just took out, etc... OR if they stop building base defenses to replace the key building they just lost thier protection and the big bombers can rush the power plants and core buildings. It works on the AI and human players alike. Infact the only 2 substancial weeknesses I've found for AirF in both Contra, Remix, and original are: 1 an enemy can Spam AA defenses over an area making most attacks very hard, but not imposible. 2 Aircraft are costly to replace when they die... If not for these 2 factors I would not hesistate to call AirF the strongest general just for the sake of amazing mobility and available damage in a second's notice.

I live by that thinking of game play and it serves me well.
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Between now and the next polished release there should be very little new art work done. Instead the focus is on designing, testing, and fixing. the mod has always been so close to finished that its nearly criminal. I'd love to see this through to the end with a real community effort.


#12 wolfshadow

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Posted 03 January 2006 - 06:26 PM

I'm gonna agree with Pen. here. Remix Alpha, the AF Gen is one of, if not my fave. general. (That might change when the full version of Remix comes out... Some of the China stuff looks mega sweet)
Properly used, AF Gen. is leathal... BUT the cost of Tanks vs Jets does need to be adressed... (But Pen has said he's gonna, and I'll take him at his word. *G*)

You do have to think, and build up reserves of reaction forces. Early Game, X-Jets are effective against enemy tanks... Just gotta make sure that you target any Mobile AA early on. You can't just sit back and wait, even against the comp. The nature of my playing time is that I generally play against the computer, against 2-5 Hard opponents, depending on my mood. My biggest problem when playing AF Gen is running out of hotkeys for my attack groups, and running out of space to build airfields. *G* And picking which awsome unit to build, of course.

#13 Pendaelose

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Posted 03 January 2006 - 06:29 PM

the hotkey thing is a problem I sometimes had too... the play it RIGHT took so much micromanagment that 10 groups paled... anymore I start the game off with Hotkey groups of 2 planes each for target specific missions and ass the game goes on up them to 4 and 8 plane groups and move progresivly from target orders to area orders.

And yes, I dropped to cost already, so its a done deal.
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Between now and the next polished release there should be very little new art work done. Instead the focus is on designing, testing, and fixing. the mod has always been so close to finished that its nearly criminal. I'd love to see this through to the end with a real community effort.


#14 M.E.C.H.

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Posted 03 January 2006 - 07:03 PM

Phoenix chill out... I didnt say remove Airf !
Instead i said that it is not a main force is it ? And i didnt say that the phrase is wroten somewhere i just fixed "MADIN's" phrase
Now i want to clear my post a little bit, i just said thta it needs some more stuff to hold a ground understand ? can an airplane hold a ground ? no it cant, cause it will fire and return to airfield... So a helipad would be awesome with some more helicopters...
I will do that for my USAF (Blue Fire).... And if i was saying that AirF must be completelly deleted then why am i going to make a USAF in my mod ? :)
I will make one, but it will ahve more things to hold something like : Better turrets, Some vehicles, and many helicopters :D
Am i clear now ?

Edited by M.E.C.H., 03 January 2006 - 07:06 PM.

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#15 ALPHA_AURORA

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Posted 03 January 2006 - 08:54 PM

how about remove the airf warfactory and create new building for the heavy choppers to match the tank gen

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i think the Apache would be a great match for the tank gen and would be a great addition because it is stronger than the comanche.

#16 Pendaelose

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Posted 03 January 2006 - 09:11 PM

Am i clear now ?

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I never singled out your post to disagree with... ... so "chill out" yourself. Nobody said you said remove it. Only Madin said "Remove" and niether I nor anyone else said otherwise.

But I do disagree with the whole idea that AirF is weak or is not a viable solution in ZH/Contra/Remix. And while it is very true a single plane cannot hold ground, a steady flow of airsupport can do so with exemplary performance.

While some players feel that AirF is not a viable army in is current standing I maintian that it is one of the strongest because I use the quirks to advantage instead of complaning about them. (again, I've not pointed that at you, but rather "some players")
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Between now and the next polished release there should be very little new art work done. Instead the focus is on designing, testing, and fixing. the mod has always been so close to finished that its nearly criminal. I'd love to see this through to the end with a real community effort.


#17 M.E.C.H.

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Posted 03 January 2006 - 11:03 PM

I never singled out yo......players")

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I like Airf (he is not my fav, but i play with him alot :D )
But its ok, its my opinion, as everybody here
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#18 Madin

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Posted 04 January 2006 - 12:58 AM

Airforce general vs... (contra only!) only the genrals I play :lol:
Super weapon general: Superior attack force for the air gen. superior defence for the SW gen. I'd say that the primary targets for the air gen would be power, command centre, strategy centre and dozers. Invisible defences do not good targets make. I'd (SW gen) concentrate on building power, defences and a second command centre (I would not bother with a strategy centre till I was at level 2 has its too soft, expensive and visible a target). A decent super weapon general has way more power then they need, so taking out their power inbetween the invisible sam sites would be costly. A airfield for the odd stealth jet, hopeful to pick out the odd group of infantry or if lucky the odd lone defence, but by and large I'm going to sit on my arse, use intelligence and react to what i see. I believe here that both teams attack and defence cancel each other out. If the super weapon general gets to level 3 first, you lose (coming back from being bombed to the stone age ain't easy) I believe that the cost for the air gen to attack in terms of loses, in comparison to the SW generals experience point gain is favoured towards the super weapon gen.
Note: Due to a bug which I've forgot to mention, if you destroy the SW gens power when the sam sites are NOT firing, then they'll remain invisible until either the powers back up or the SW gens defeated. They will NOT show up even when stealth detection units/abilities are used. The game read out will say "stealth unit detected", but you'll see nothing.

Cyber gen: I'd think that the airforce general would be on the defensive either until he handles it or loses the game. The big airfield takes twice has long to build has a weapon factory and cost $1000 more. Preparing for a rush, normally means diverting funds that you'd rather use for an attack. Trying to prempt or counter rush with a loaded humvee... well good luck. So its defend against the annoyingly fast drones time.

Nuke gen: yeah whatever. :)

Flame gen: The plane to gattling tank ratio is 3 to 1 if the air gen wants to destroy one. 1 gattling tank will take out 2 fighters or one stealth plane easy. A gattling tank cost $800, each plane $1000 or a chopper $1200 ( <- hint: don't bother). Defensively I might has well keep 1 or more close to each gattling cannon defence. In fact using the guard function 1 for each building. Use them in peference to the defence structure becuase they don't power down and you get less points for busting one up then you would the defence structure. The forward line to defend inferno cannons just has to have a 2:1 ration of gattling tanks to other units (higher if you want). Directly take on the cannons, those units may get them but their not returning home (and cheers for the general points) take them on with ground units? don't forget whos got better ground units here. At 3:1 (much higher the more gattling tanks work together) by the time your on level 2, I'll be building my nuke at level 5. In other words, NOT A F@CKING CHANCE!

Chemical gen: Defending against them is less of a nightmare, they have to use Stinger soilders until they reach level 3 for anti air. And, for once, the cost to effectiveness ratio is in favour of the airforce gen (Hurrah!). However to attack them... It takes 3(!) stealth fighters to completely destroy a defence site. 2 will reduce it to a GLA hole. Place one within resonable distance to a defence site with a tank cannon... thats a tough perimeter to brake. Eventually have a black market or 2, loaded with stinger soilders in the heart of your base (very expensive set up, only viable in the centre of your base) anti air heaven. So I guess its a case of who'll reach level 3 first. Air gen, B52's will wear out that perimeter nicely. Chemical gen? fly swatter and silicon cloud upgrade = see ya air gen!

Stealth gen: Invisible everything makes them tough. The only cool thing for the air gen is that the stealth gen will never muster a base destroying attack in one go. Its all destroy one building then run. destroy 5 units then run. Repeat add has long has you've got. Attacking them is a pain because of the potential for an invisble mobile base defence force to appear from nowhere (gets on my nerves!) and there is no change in the number of stealth planes needed to destroy a stinger site (GLA tunnel is weaker). A long war of attrition but doable, after all the hijackers won't be nicking your planes (unless your dumb) and jarmen kell won't be shooting them).

If anyone wants to prove me wrong, be my guest, I'm game if you are. And i'll publicly declare that your right and I'm wrong if you suceed. Just make sure you've read carefully! :lol:

Edited by Madin, 04 January 2006 - 01:00 AM.


#19 Madin

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Posted 04 January 2006 - 01:37 AM

1: The airforce general was easily one of the strongest generals in ZH. It also had one of the best rush tactics in the game. Look where it is in contra.
2. Look at the original power of the commanche and compare it to contra. Which version 'does the job' better.
3: Compare the power of the original aurora vs the I can't make it 'ahhhh!' contra version.
4: Check the AC 130 in the original version, did it have trouble crossing one enemys base to get to another? How much health did it have once circling for attack? compare.
5: Has contra got more vareity and more effective anti air, or are planes in general just weaker?
6: Have defences been beefed up in contra?
7: Are ground attack units significantly better?
8: Is it that hero units are weaker, or just the same, but all other ground units and defences are stronger in comparison to ZH?
9: If you answer that in general infantry are the same, ground units and defences are much more powerful but aircraft have been weakend, think about how that adjust the balance of the game in relation to ZH. Disscuss.
Play World land conflict briefly, to see a mod with a different take on balance.

#20 Phoenix911

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Posted 04 January 2006 - 02:50 AM

dune contra airforce maybe not the strongest but it how u use it that makes them deadly. All your point about how u can defend your base a win is like what?
You are probley making assumtions from playing the airforce gen in skermish play a human and u will see it can be harder than u think. Also airforce gen is perfect for rush dozer/worker killers. if u can't build u can't fight.

Anyways this thrend is all based on opion some ppl think the airforce gen suck some don't ok bottem line is creator will fix any balance issuse in teh next version if there is one. And it nof when remix v 3 come sout u will see the airforce gen is one of the most powerful. (subject to change as china and gla teams not tested.) But airforce gen shows great promise
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