87 replies to this topic

[Drewry]

I think the biggest question any human could ever ask is why. It is such a simple question but has no answer. Why is a question that only gets you so far. Eventually, you will get to a point where you can no longer find the answer to the why. It is also my biggest problem with atheism. I don't find a belief attractive that has no purpose. If you believe in atheism, then everything you are currently doing has no purpose. You could say you are just living for a few years of happiness since this is all you get. But why do you care? Your time is so small and insignificant and after it's over you won't have any recollection of it whatsoever. You will cease to exist. So why not die right now?

According to this belief there is nothing and never will be anything for you other than 100 years - if you are lucky. I believe there is more to that. I don't care about stupid pointless contradictions or anything like that. What most atheists don't realize is what I believe is not about the books. If there was a national report tomorrow saying that there is physical proof that the bible was completely fake, I would continue believing what I believe. Because what I believe is something more than just a book, or a person, it's something I feel. You may think that is all bullshit but I don't know any way else to describe it. I feel there is something more to this universe than a pin drop in a vast ocean.

Suppose you look at life in a more retrospective way. What can you do in your life that will help others and make your mark in history; how can you be remembered? I think that is what we most strive in life - believers and non alike. We seek to be remembered anyway we can - that primal urge of writing 'I wuz heer' all over the place as a child. But then you have to go to the question why? What is the purpose of helping someone you will never encounter in eternity - since you will cease to exist? Ultimately everything you do has no purpose because a little bit further in time, earth will cease to exist and then everything will really not matter. What is the point of making that little bit of time worth while, especially when you won't remember it or be here to reap the benefits of it after you are gone?

All I am asking is where is the purpose in atheism, all - or most - other religions offer this purpose. And I think this is why they have become so popular over the years. It’s not about how institutions have used them for evil, what matters is that the belief has given those people hope. Something to look forward to. I don’t see anything wrong with something that openly promotes peace and caring for others, and most atheist jump all over religion and call atheism "the logical method" and try to pull people away from religion. Why do you care if they are 'wasting' their lives? After all you will not have any existence in a while for it to matter.

All but one of my closest friends are atheists, someone once asked me, "Why do you hang around sinners?" I find more value in spending ten seconds with someone who does not see the light than an eternity with those who do. I have heard as many arguments as I can about atheism, and I wish to be enlightened by your beliefs. I have only one question for you, and that is what is the purpose to atheism, what can atheism offer that other beliefs can’t?

[Jeeves]

The purpose to atheism is human intellectual advancement. Had Copernicus gone by "the book," the Earth would still be the centre of the universe. I can't recall what part of the bible states that earth is the centre of the universe, but I do know that Christianity has about the bloodiest history of any religion, and is based on ten simple instructions, the foremost being "Thou shalt not kill." Muslims bomb embassies, whilst being commanded by their religion to protect and respect ambassadors as bringer of peace. If not the texts and commands upon which their religion is based, what do followers actually "believe" in anyway? Most religions are just ways of hiding. It's fine for Bush to invade Iraq because God told him to do it. It doesn't matter I have a limited understanding of science, because all I need is written down somewhere. Atheism is the purest and most noble believe, it cannot be contradicted or misinterpreted. It can't be taken advantage of, and under atheism everyone is equal. Without the shackles of misinterpreted fanaticism, we are all equal, and free to advance ourselves and our race.

Edited by Jeeves, 17 February 2006 - 06:29 AM.

[Drewry]

I dont think you can directly relate killing to religion. People will always kill and commit crimes. Did not crime exist before religion? Religion does not in basis impede intelectual advancement, however ignorance does. An ignorant atheist can do just as much harm to science as can an ignorant christian. I dont see how atheism is the purest. It has no defined code, so therefore there are no groups directly related to atheism. Because of that you can not directly relate any events strictly to it. However atheism can be just as much the cause of killing and other malicious acts as can any religion. Fanatics are just extremists, political extremists are just as dangerous as a religious extremist. I dont see any of your points as being valid points against religion.

[Jeeves]

I wasn't actually linking violence to religion, just pointing out the irony of using your religion that forbodes it to justify violence.
Thou shalt not kill wouldn't be a commandment if people didn't kill before the bible existed!
And why does there have to be a group relating to something? And I'm not even saying that acheivements are made only by athiests! If you've only started this thread to complain about heathen swines yet to find god (which must be pretty darn stupid of them; he is everywhere), I dare you to find the passage that demands you not to impose your religion upon others. Its one of the most overlooked (damn door-to-door god salespeople), but it does exist.
I have nothing against the bible, there are many fine points made within it, I only object to people who worship a book without reading it first, and, incidently, I've never had that problem from an athiest.

Edited by Jeeves, 17 February 2006 - 06:49 AM.

[Drewry]

Where did I ever impose religion on you, I never said you should do such and such I am merely discussing the topic. This is simply an inteluctual discussion. Like I said, i want to be enlightened. I am interested in the other side's point of view. I think you are taking things to personal.

[MSpencer]

I have only one question for you, and that is what is the purpose to atheism, what can atheism offer that other beliefs can’t?

I think you misunderstand, atheism is not a belief, rather it is the lack of a belief. Being an atheist doesn't require you to do anything except not believe in a higher being. Personally, I just cannot see there being a god in the sky. I know how the earth works and how organisms work, and it looks nothing to me like some divine intervention. That, coupled with Christian and Muslim intolerance and Muslim and Hindu feuding makes me absolutely abhor religion as the darkest of mankind's sins. People should be allowed to live their lives and should not be damned to hell or marked by some church which can't even prove that there is a god.
There's something that we call reason in the sciences. Religion can be defined as the lack of reason.
Therefore, I am an atheist.

Edited by MSpencer, 17 February 2006 - 11:22 AM.

[Allied General]

Science explains how but it doesn't explain why

[Athena]

The next question arises. Is there a 'why'?

[MSpencer]

It is my opinion that human beings are to interpret why on their own. I do not seek to answer why, but only to state that nobody can answer why. Why is not a question of the heavenly, rather it is a question that can be confronted with simple biochemistry. Why? Because we could.

[Ash]

To the Atheist, the purpose is to make best use of the time one has. Because one is a long time dead.

Therefore, an Atheist life is not purposeless. It is every bit as fulfilling and enriched as that of any other faith, except that it is not used in pursuit of an afterlife. It's used in pursuit of being the best that one can be.

It's certainly not as selfish as a quest for eternal happiness

[Tom]

The purpose is based on where humans came from. Recently i've spent my time researching this ancient "reptillian" theory, just brought a book to help me look into it further, but even the bible seems to back it up and Christian Gnostism.

Either way humans were created by some force within the universe and this leads to the obvious reasoning to why? What is our purpose?

Either 1, we were meant to be a slave race (ancient eygptians and the jews for example)
2, we were actually made by creation itself to help battle the imbalance within creation (known as the devil, or the fallen angel) however we were consumed by it and now comes the time where we will have to battle it again and make a choice.
3, we were made by God and corrupted ourselves over the time
4, god does not exist and nature created us over millions of years of evolution, this then makes us have no purpose and how can we exist with no purpose? Everything exists for a purpose. Nature exists to keep the earth alive, it is the earth. Plants exist to feed oxygen back into the carbon cycle and animals to keep natural habitats going, but humans? What have we done since then. If there is anything alien on this planet it is really us, we are the only beings (that we acknowledge) to exist on this planet with intelligence. Why us and not another species?

Its a question that raises in my mind time and time again about the existence of human beings and its another question that pushes me away from atheism again. Atheism is inconclusive and close-minded. It doesn't search for anything just accepts whatever it sees. If we focused on this all our lives maybe in science, that wouldn't get anywhere. Science and religion go hand in hand, without one the other wouldn't exist. There always needs to be something driving the question. Science finds the answers (although it is sometimes inaccurate), religion keeps the question.

Pure belief in religion can lead to close mindedness also, people need to research areas either in their own minds or externally to find their own truth.

Either way for once i agree with AG: "Science explains how but it doesn't explain why." To me that is 100% correct. We need the why to keep driving mankind, otherwise we will evolve no more. Evolution is not just physical, its mental and if you believing it in, its also spiritual.

Personally when it comes to choice i prefer why rather than how? Science use to fascinate me but now i am fascinated by philosophy, mythology and anything that is not seen as "normal" by society. Analysing and asking yourself why. I've found though this more reasonable answers than science has ever given me and ever will.

I ask this to an atheist:

Darkness does not exist, it is simply the absense of light. You can have no light (Darkness), more light, a lot of light and a huge amount of light, there is no stopping. Once you reach jet black you cannot get darker, so darkness does not exist. Same as cold, cold does not exist, once you reach -273.15degrees celsius (0degrees kelvin) you cannot get any colder. Same as death, you can have life, a lot of life or no life. Death does not exist, its just the absense of life in that being. The life has moved on. No energy is ever "wasted." Energy always moves on, energy cannot die.

Science could never answer that for me, but once i began to ask why myself i soon came to the conclusion that death does not exist, as darkness does not exist and as cold does not exist. The energy just moves on, the spirit moves on.

To an atheist: Science cannot tell you if God exists, so how can you know? If you refuse to search or ask why how can you ever find it?

[Ash]

Perhaps it's more to do with the faith one places in God. Whether God does actually exist or not is irrelevant. The Atheist simply lacks the faith in God that a Christian places in Him.

Besides, an Atheist doesn't just look to science to explain everything. He, along with every man, woman and child who walks this Earth, must make their own sense of things.

So, it could be argued that an Atheist instead places his faith in the nonexistence of God. But whatever.

The world is by its own nature subjective. This is why I've never looked down upon someone for their religious conviction, more upon their enactment of it if it is rather belittling of the atheist or of other ways of thinking.

I will never say 'your beliefs are wrong'. More 'I don't understand your beliefs; they are not logical' or 'I don't agree with your beliefs'. Because, as you say, nobody truly knows. You can't prove he exists, we can't prove he doesn't. Why are we arguing about it?

[Drewry]

If cats evolve that way it is because of having seen us for centuries and the way we act thus adopting our customs. My cat reaches for the door and tries to open it, could we say he is inteligent because he knows how to use a door, or is he just studying what I have done and tried to replicate it. And if he is intelligent because of it, it was only because he saw me do it repeatedly. Humanity didnt see anything else using tools or anything like that. We were the first.

There is a theory I have that perhaps there is no other intelligent life in our galaxy. Afterall if you look at it the universe is pretty new. Well the way I was thinking is, what if we were the super intelligent race that you always see in sci fi films. We are the race that ends up ruling the galaxy centuries from now. We are the all knowing alien race. Its just an idea and it is perfectly possible. However probably in a few years that will all be proven wrong, just a thought.

[MSpencer]

You need to go study evolution. Your theory is not only foolish and stupid, but contradicts every modern theory which has been developed and seeks to bring us back to the 19th century with Lamarckism. Organisms do not evolve due to anything of their own volition, it is pure random chance selected for by the environment.
If you're going to try to contradict science, do it right.

[Tom]

You need to go study evolution. Your theory is not only foolish and stupid, but contradicts every modern theory which has been developed

So which theories are right? Are you the judge?

Organisms do not evolve due to anything of their own volition, it is pure random chance selected for by the environment.
If you're going to try to contradict science, do it right.

Contradicting science is easy, doing it right is a point of view and disproving science has already been done time and time again. Its all a matter of belief rather than principle. The choice is yours. Science is too slow for me, i must research for myself, try things myself and see if they work. Many things i have found do work. Illness is not down to viruses or bacteria, they are simply the result of an imbalance within the body. Medical science purely blames the viruses for the illness however its the diet that is usually to blame. I have found that out myself. There are many "miracle" chemicals or techniques that help extremely in strengthening the immune system. Hydrogen Peroxide is one, yet science recognises it as poisonous, but obviously they have never tried it in extremely small doses for the immune system. Etc etc.

If cats evolve that way it is because of having seen us for centuries and the way we act thus adopting our customs. My cat reaches for the door and tries to open it, could we say he is inteligent because he knows how to use a door, or is he just studying what I have done and tried to replicate it.

Look at humanity however, we learn from mistakes. Yes, evolution is learning. We evolve from failing and passing. We evolve from learning from our mistakes. However also look at this case: History is repeating itself and we continue to ignore the pattern, we have yet to learn from the mistakes and due to that history repeats again and again. Just as you said with your cat, he said you do it repeatedly before he learnt. Humans are the same. We all learn from each other, if only one human existed then they would learn nothing other than the basics of survival. The reason we are so intelligent is due to the amount of us, or due to the fact we were taught by someone or something. Who would know? Only those with the knowledge. This is why we seek ourselves but due to everyone not having a similar lust for freedom and knowledge we get nowhere. Lets say this decade WWIII started and the use of nuclear weapons would wipe out a huge amount of mankinds population. Do you suppose the survivors would learn from the mistake of three world wars or would they continue with such destruction? Unlikely. I believe humanity was taught on the day of genesis about its role and purpose by whatever brought us into existance. Whether that be nature, "Gods" or God himself.

Humanity didnt see anything else using tools or anything like that. We were the first.

How can you be so sure? We still do not know where we came from and why we were born, so we cannot judge on this yet, unless you believe in controlled science 110% and have no recognition for anything else.

Not everything has a purpose. Wildlife does not exist to keep the planet alive, the planet is simply a rock in space which orbits around a star

I would like to debate otherwise. This planet is as live us you and me. It is not a barren landscape purely made from the suns of ancients. Yes maybe that is where it started, whom knows, yet it still has consistant actions that signify life. What science blames as global warming and "natural disasters" i see the potential for it to be more. Natural disasters such as earthquakes obviously would be explained as plates shifting around, i will not debate on that however the energy coming from this planet gives those plates such life and movement. Why is the earths core hot? I mean science would obviously suggest it is the extreme pressure and friction however i see it more as the "heart" of the planet. It keeps the gravity going and it also renews the planets surface constantly to stop it from dying. Then we come to global warming. Of course we have the greenhouse gases and the pole shifting but the amount of negative energy within this planet builds up within it causes the spirit of earth "Gaia" to give these effects or worsen these effects. Either to destroy those whom are damaging her before she dies and becomes another barren planet like mars or because that is exactly what is happening. She is dying. Sadly this goes back to belief rather than principle. However shouldn't it be our principle to find out if this is true or not? Afterall it cannot be discredited if it is unknown, only remain as an open topic for more research.

[Comrade Kal]

Why?

Because.

[MSpencer]

Contradicting science is easy, doing it right is a point of view and disproving science has already been done time and time again. Its all a matter of belief rather than principle. The choice is yours. Science is too slow for me, i must research for myself, try things myself and see if they work. Many things i have found do work. Illness is not down to viruses or bacteria, they are simply the result of an imbalance within the body. Medical science purely blames the viruses for the illness however its the diet that is usually to blame. I have found that out myself. There are many "miracle" chemicals or techniques that help extremely in strengthening the immune system. Hydrogen Peroxide is one, yet science recognises it as poisonous, but obviously they have never tried it in extremely small doses for the immune system. Etc etc.

Oh I'm sorry, you've been listening to Kevin Trudeau the PSYCHO! Did you know that in 1990 he was convicted of larceny? He posed as a doctor and stole over $80,000 in false checks.
You're believing one man over two thousand years of modern medical practice, and you expect me to take you or him seriously? He's a convicted felon whose paid about $3 million to the SEC!
Hydrogen peroxide is poisonous. It has been used to treat cancer, but numerous medical professionals including the American Cancer Society have determined that it is neither safe nor effective.
And diets defeating viruses? Try injecting yourself with HIV or Ebola, you'll see how your diet helps. Your diet does have an effect on your immune system. Is it noticeable? Hell yes. Will it stop you from being sick? Hell no. I also ask you where you got your degree in microbiology.

How can you be so sure? We still do not know where we came from and why we were born, so we cannot judge on this yet, unless you believe in controlled science 110% and have no recognition for anything else.

Are you dense? You were born on this planet, you came from this planet, your species evolved from life forms on this planet, and you're going to stay on this planet, this very, very dead, soul-less planet. Organisms do not evolve, populations evolve. And don't come up with that Monarch - Viceroy Butterfly crap. That's mimicry, and is not a result of one butterfly seeing another and saying "Hmm... let's change!"

So which theories are right? Are you the judge?

I'm not the judge, but I can tell you which ones are preposterous and contradict all the evidence we have collected about life.

evolution is learning.

Evolution is the process by which populations and species adapt according to the theory of natural selection, that the environment selects for characters that increase the relative fitness of an organism. when I learn something, I don't evolve it.

[Jeeves]

I'm not that big on mighty rants, but I actually agree...

[anonymous]

I would like to submit something about evolution.
Is the belief that we have evolved from the oceans or did we start out on land?
I think it is the oceans. Science seems to start and end with evolution on land.
We come from primates. Not really, we have evolved from liquid. Once it is understood
where the "beginning" is of our physical exsistence we can truly understand how alien we truly are on land.
Evolution started in a liquid enviornment for us not an air driven enviorn.

This is just a view on something nobody on this thread has brought up.
Now go ahead and blast me for not going into details about what this has to do with the thread.