33 replies to this topic

[Pendaelose]

I've had an intersting Idea that I'm considering working in...

One oft he big goals of both Contra and Remix3 is to slow down the game pace so that the full tech tree is enjoyed and to make all battles last a little longer and be more skill based.

there are 3 ways to do this:

1. Restrict construction to General's Level (like Contra)
2. Restrict construction to Buyable Upgrades (Like Remix3)
3. Restrict construction to include an extended set of building prerequisutes.

With some balance tweeking all 3 styles can be made to progress in about the same amount of time from Starting Tech up to SuperWeapons/units in the late game.

The new idea is to use ALL 3 by making some generals dependent on different Escalation triggers...

Example:

Nuke General is a upgrade oriented general in Remix3, so he would use the Upgrade based tech system.
Tank General is a very agressive general, so he would use the Level based tech system to progress.
Infantry General is a very defense general, so he would use a building based tech system.

the Tech style would not be tied to USA, China, or GLA, but rather based on the play style of that specific general.. it would create VERY differnt play styles for each general, even more so different than they already are...

Right now (in Remix3) flame china and Chem GLA are very similare. they both use a specialized weapon style, but remian a very flexable army. Teh units look differnt, but the play style is the same... by making on a level based and one an upgrade based it would completely change the play style of the two and make them twice as unique.


There would of course be balance concerns, but these are not by any means fatal to the idea. its not hard at all to control the speed at wich each style of game play progresses down the tech tree. with minimal effort the Level, Upgrade, and Base versions could all be made to hit max level within moments of each other with average plyers behind each. Weather a certain method might be faster than another really depends on play style more than code balancing. a Very agressive player will have lots more combat than a pasive player, so the level based would suit the agressive better. A total money hog would certainly prefer the expensive upgrade tech style, and a turtle player would like the base building kind... I think this would go a long way to expanding the play options of the game.

[Shandrial]

All should be:

2. Restrict construction to Buyable Upgrades (Like Remix3)

That way each general upgrades on the same sliding curve and such, it does make for a more balanced session.
That way someone can't bitch about loosing cause they had to wait for rank to come into effect and they couldn't buy their upgrades like their opponent.

Just my humble opinion.

Hugs,
Alyssa

Edited by Shandrial, 03 March 2006 - 10:34 PM.

[Gredinus]

Acctuly i like the idea becose it would make remix unique and it is already the best mod for generals there is.

[REWENGER]

All should be:

2. Restrict construction to Buyable Upgrades (Like Remix3)

That way each general upgrades on the same sliding curve and such, it does make for a more balanced session.
That way someone can't bitch about loosing cause they had to wait for rank to come into effect and they couldn't buy their upgrades like their opponent.

Just my humble opinion.

Hugs,
Alyssa

maby make late veicles, superweapons and some buildings to have them like upgrades:
so if you want to have the overlord, it must be purchased like upgrades before been builded. this shoud make the game last longer.

[Pendaelose]

maby make late veicles, superweapons and some buildings to have them like upgrades:
so if you want to have the overlord, it must be purchased like upgrades before been builded. this shoud make the game last longer.

That actualy makes a valid 4th option for the tech tree. I like that option. the only chalange is that the upgrade list is already at the 128 upgrade max... but there are ways to fake around that a little.

[Guy980]

Ok, i HATE GENERAL RANK RESTRICTIONS, I"VE WON BY THE TIME I HAVE GOT TO 5 STAR AND THAT'S WHERE ALL THE COOL STUFF IS!!!
Don't tell me that in remix3 there is rank restrictions.
If there is, is it easy to advance? Fill me in.

[Pendaelose]

Ok, i HATE GENERAL RANK RESTRICTIONS, I"VE WON BY THE TIME I HAVE GOT TO 5 STAR AND THAT'S WHERE ALL THE COOL STUFF IS!!!
Don't tell me that in remix3 there is rank restrictions.
If there is, is it easy to advance? Fill me in.

There's not rank restrictions... but there are Escalation Upgrades. Remix3 uses a system where after you build Key buildings you need to research the next Escalation level first. As you progress up the tech tree the upgrades become increasingly more expensive and take longer to research. It makes the game longer and encourages players to use low tech units, but unlike th Rank system, the player has Direct control over his own tech level.

the proposed idea would make it so that different generals have differnt ways of going up the tech tree. Som units would have special buildings, some units would have the upgrades, some units would have to use rank.

[Guy980]

Ok that's better, so like at my war factory, i might have a "tech level 2" upgrade i have to research in order to advance. Right?

[Gredinus]

no.
You do that upgrade in your command center.

[Pendaelose]

Ok that's better, so like at my war factory, i might have a "tech level 2" upgrade i have to research in order to advance. Right?

Basicly the right Idea. Build warfactory-->ResearchTech1-->Build Strategy Center-->Research Tech2-->Build Adv.Tech Center-->Research Tech3-->Build final SuperWeapon


the Adv tech center is unique for every general. For many generals the adv. tech center is a super weapon.

[Guy980]

Ok. Thanks!

[Casojin]

The old question once again, I like the current contra with gen. power and also prefer buyable upgrade than more tech buildings.

[Pendaelose]

I'm not raising the questions of WHICH to use... I'm suggesting they ALL be used. I think Generals should each use a system that reflects the general's own style.

[oops2005]

In my opinion:
Agressive: Air,Tank,Assault,Robot,Flame,Demo
Defensive: SW,Infantry,Camouflage
Upgrade: Nuke,Chemical,Laser

And I like this idea, make Remix more interesting and unique.

[Pendaelose]

In my opinion:
Agressive: Air,Tank,Assault,Robot,Flame,Demo
Defensive: SW,Infantry,Camouflage
Upgrade: Nuke,Chemical,Laser

And I like this idea, make Remix more interesting and unique.

I agree with your break down of play styls.. although, there is a catch... an example would be 2 generals of very similare style. Tank and Laser. Both use tank rush tactics to overwhelm the enemy while Air and infantry support is limited. By making one an building army, and one a promotion army the once very similare game play suddenly turns 180 and they are completely different. Just this small change means this: Tank General will need early and plentiful exp... Rushing and sustaind attack is his best option because he needs the steady flow of expierence. Laser General being tied to both his power plants and tech buildings he will need a strong base defense force and lots of build time... he can't abandon his base in the early game and would be very busy building for half the game. Laser would be better suited for late game high tech attacks instead of early rushes.

Another good example.... SupW general is an ideal case for the base building system... and stealth, although his outward apearence is very different, has the same defensive play style in common. So, by changing Stealth general from base building over to level based it calls on stealth general to use his stealth units offensivly and skermish with his enemies in the hope of drawing them back into traps. At the Same time, a good SupW player would be doing his best not to draw any agro from his neighbors because he knows if he gets in a fight with a leveler then he's only going to boost them up in the long run.

Even a defenseive army can pick a fight. Getting the enemy to attack you so by skermishing his borders is a passive agressive way to gain rank with a defensive army. Again suddenly two once similare armies are 180 degrees different.

The basic breakdowns of each promotion system in a PvP balance would be:

Level Based: Demands lots of skill, especialy when playing against a defensive build style general. He cares nothiing for your atacks and if you fail to keep an advantage you will lag behind in technology. In skilled hands a level based general could gain technology much quicker than his upgrade or base style counterparts, but rapid tech gain means steady and rapid agression. This is not for your turtel players. Rushers and skermishers will excell at this. A SKILLED agressive player can hit level 3 long before another player buys all his equivilent tech buildings or upgrades.

Base/building based: Well suited for very strong defenders. The buildings can be attacked and destroyed, affectivly reducing the player's tech level, however there would be no long pauses for research times and the player could gain tech even while not fighting. If carefully defended a player could use this method to get his tech up quickly and at reasonable cost. His only challenge is keeping the Tech he builds.

Upgrade based: similare to base building, as it only requires alot of cash to go up in level, however it is better suited for flexable armies because the tech isn't tied directly to combat or base building. It does however take a considerable amount of time and money to research the Tech levels.



For some generals mixing army styles with oposite promotion styles can create a very interesting and creative play style with ahrd choices. a defense army like Stealth as leveler means you NEED to fight constantly, but you can't fight the enemy on a one to one at his won base... now its time to use all those stealth units and ambush him. Harrass his base defenses with buggies until he comes out to fight... leave troops in waiting at expansion points so he can't expand, all these things will agrivate your oponenet until he attacks you. then all you have to do is defend your home turf and reep the benifits of his folly. or an agressive army like AirF as an Upgrader means you have to seriusly think out your money spending. AirF is an expensive army to play as, and the Tech upgrades are expensive Do you want to tech up? Or fill that airfield, you can't have both.

for other generals matching the game style with the tech style creates a pure and demanding style, such as Tank.. a highly agressive army with level tech ups calls for an unrelenting attack to squeeze levels out of your enemy. Even if your losses are 10 to one against you, if you can level up faster than they can research or build you will have a huge advantage over them very quickly, but it takes perserverence, you can't play the Tank general turrtel and expect to survive. or SupW, always a turteling army, now has twice as much to build and defend... suddenly its not so easy to sit behind your wall... it only takes a well placed strike to push you back to the stone age. A strong defense means more than protecting your borders, you need to protect your BASE. A concept mostly loss in many games.



It is reasonable to have balance concerns... most pointedly being if you suck at Generals you might not be able to gain levels against your friends, so all level based armies would be horrible for you... .... my advice would be "don't Play those armies" You get to actualy choose a level or upgrade based army from the begining... It will dictate a large part of the strategy you will need. When playing against Level based armies you will want to avoid conflict as long as posible... when playing as one you should either take the fight to them or get them to bring the fight to you, as long as your fighting and gaining exp. If you don't like a play style, don't choose that general.

If you know what army type your enemy is playing, you have a good idea what type of game he wil be playing... you know his strengths and his weeknesses and can exploit those... don't attack a level based army with ground troops... try to fight with super weaons when you can... or constntly attack the tech buildings of a building based character to keep him starting over. A disadvantage can quickly become an advantage if you play it carefully.

Most people would see it as another place where armies can become unbalanced, but I actualy see it as a golden opourtunity to add a tool to balance armies. An over strong army paired with a promotion system that adds a nwe demand brings that army down a notch... while giving any army the exact promotion system he needs can make a week army stronger.

It can also be used to make nearly identical armies radicly differnt. Lazr, tank, and assault all have very similare game play, but with differnt systems they suddenly have little to nothing in common and each becomes a new and unique stlye... thus giving more chances for a player to find the exact play style he's looking for.

Edited by Pendaelose, 04 March 2006 - 06:24 AM.

[Wookien]

I think AirF should be a Tech army instead of an agressive army.
Stealth should be Agressive instead.

[Pendaelose]

I'll likely change the list a little, but I'm thinking it should go like this:

Level Based: Tank (Agressive), Robot (Agressive), Stealth (Defensive), Chem(Flexable)

Building Based: SupW(Defensive), Infa(Defensive), Lazr (Agressive) Assault (Flexable),

Upgrade Based: Flame(Flexable), AirF (Flexable), Nuke (Defensive), Demo (Agressive)



My reasoning is to get a well blended mix of each play style under each Tech style.

Some armies, such as nuke are were made with the intention of being ofensive, but in PvP I've never seen an agressive Nuke player. Without fail every round with a nuke player included them turtteling behind retaliators while they tech up to build overlords.

[Guy980]

Oh, i'll know for next time. I'm a turtler. I don't rush, i like send in one atrillery.

[KOC2000]

I think Nuke is (agressive) it even promotes faster than Tank.. At least I do it playing Contra.

So, Generals with "artiellery" at the beginning should be "Level Based"

[Pendaelose]

I think Nuke is (agressive) it even promotes faster than Tank.. At least I do it playing Contra.

So, Generals with "artiellery" at the beginning should be "Level Based"

How quickly you promote has nothing to do with Agressive or not. SupW general promotes at a terrifying rate... all you have to do is defend. Infact, my expeirence so far is that defensive genrals always get promoted tha fastest because you can pull out rageous kill ratios. When playing as Nuke or supW against the AI 100 to 1 or even 300 to 1 kill ratios are not uncommon. Considering those numbers I don't think Nuke OR SupW would be very fair to play as a level based army.

note: If you dispute my kill ratios, then I'll be glad to post a sreen shot proving it.

Also, even by the "ArtilleryTraining" standard, the remix3 Nuke General would not get levl based. Instead of Artil Vet he gets "China Drones" as a lvl1 power.

Edited by Pendaelose, 04 March 2006 - 06:06 PM.