33 replies to this topic

[Gredinus]

i would make flame lvl based and chem upgrade based.

[Wookien]

I agree with Gredinius on that one.

[KOC2000]

How quickly you promote has nothing to do with Agressive or not. SupW general promotes at a terrifying rate... all you have to do is defend. Infact, my expeirence so far is that defensive genrals always get promoted tha fastest because you can pull out rageous kill ratios. When playing as Nuke or supW against the AI 100 to 1 or even 300 to 1 kill ratios are not uncommon. Considering those numbers I don't think Nuke OR SupW would be very fair to play as a level based army.

note: If you dispute my kill ratios, then I'll be glad to post a sreen shot proving it.

Also, even by the "ArtilleryTraining" standard, the remix3 Nuke General would not get levl based. Instead of Artil Vet he gets "China Drones" as a lvl1 power.

Maybe I just got used to the Levels system and doesn't want it to be changed, at least for "Nuke" my favorite
Anyways.. good luck with the mod..
One wish, I don't know why is't it possible?? Why can't be the mods converted to Generals or even BFME or BFME2 they all suing the same engine.. but Zero Hour, actually buggy.. it's very rare to play LAN game to the end, especially when we are 8.

[Gredinus]

Well the law forbits to port ZH stuff to normal generals and BFME & BFME2 chrash the same way as ZH.

Edited by Gredinus, 05 March 2006 - 04:06 PM.

[Red Alpha]

Ok, i HATE GENERAL RANK RESTRICTIONS, I"VE WON BY THE TIME I HAVE GOT TO 5 STAR AND THAT'S WHERE ALL THE COOL STUFF IS!!!
Don't tell me that in remix3 there is rank restrictions.
If there is, is it easy to advance? Fill me in.

There's not rank restrictions... but there are Escalation Upgrades. Remix3 uses a system where after you build Key buildings you need to research the next Escalation level first. As you progress up the tech tree the upgrades become increasingly more expensive and take longer to research. It makes the game longer and encourages players to use low tech units, but unlike th Rank system, the player has Direct control over his own tech level.

the proposed idea would make it so that different generals have differnt ways of going up the tech tree. Som units would have special buildings, some units would have the upgrades, some units would have to use rank.

oh u mean like the build up of ogame and tech choosing of bushtarion? or am i totaly wron ... btw i think u should make an update on the homepage of contra with atleast 004 pictures and units (and the awaring for futer conta players of the tech restritions

[KOC2000]

BFME and BFME2 don't crash with me.. Also ZH used to be stable most of the time and was rarely crashed "missmatch" but nowadays it's the opposite, I don't even remember a completed game in the last few months.. How about you guys?
I heared it's because lagging? I play LAN even. or should I upgrade my LAN to gigabit?

[Gilgamesh]

Well, going back to the original topic:

Pendaelose, have you considered the option to mix the styles within the same general? Like, some upgrades you can get from leveling, others you need to purchase and others you need tech to get then. This would allow the general-style to be like the player style and make players try out others ways of playing if they want to see everything.

[Vaginomano]

Well, going back to the original topic:

Pendaelose, have you considered the option to mix the styles within the same general? Like, some upgrades you can get from leveling, others you need to purchase and others you need tech to get then. This would allow the general-style to be like the player style and make players try out others ways of playing if they want to see everything.

That sounds sexy... really sexy...

[Pendaelose]

Well, going back to the original topic:

Pendaelose, have you considered the option to mix the styles within the same general? Like, some upgrades you can get from leveling, others you need to purchase and others you need tech to get then. This would allow the general-style to be like the player style and make players try out others ways of playing if they want to see everything.

Theres an up and down with this though... ... All players will go for all the tech. some tech might take them longer to buy in the same game, but inevitably there will be no amount of restriction in this setup. Players will build every tech building and research every upgrade. they will also eventualy hit lvl5 and get all of that tech too.

I had at one point looked at the option of making it posible to gain your tech by other means... such as buy techs 1-3 with general's points to save time and money, but because of certain game restrictions this doens't seam 100% possible, it can be done, but there would be many bugs to work out. OR build a building istead of research the tech.

The closest thing to this is what I did with tank general. the promotion powers tree is mostly replaced by a new tech tree. there are several units tied to several layers of promotions. If you also get artillery or carpet bombing then there is no way to purchase the full list of units... so you can't have it all. At the same time, all these specail units also require building pre-reqs so general level alone doesn't give you all your weapons. But, the price payed here is tank general has nearly no powers to call on.


The only other way to give more freedom of style to an army without being allowed to build it all at once is to have a choice at the start of the round. Your initial dozer and command center would have no build options... just a list of available sytles. "Building, Upgrade, Level" and you would choose your advance style then. The catch here is it would be a little bit of a bitch to setup, every building would have to have 3 versions made each with different pre-requisits. also, I think giving too many choices to any given general makes it dificult to balance the play style for that general. A level based general has to work for his tech, so its balanced to give him a unit strength advantage over an upgrade based general... Tank general fits this example perfectly. a level baed general needs and deserves better units, but if you let the same units be built on the upgrade system it would be over powered.


Now, its also posible to code it so that each tech level for a general might need a differnt aproach... such as level 1 tech requires a general promotion, level 2 requires an upgrade, level 3 requires a building... ... for some generals a fair set could be made, but I think it would quickly become very confusing.


yet another option is that each general could require not one, but 2 full set of triggers... so: SupW might require Buildings AND upgrades to progress while Tank general needs Levels AND upgrades... Steath might need Buildings AND Levels. This adds alot more options in balancing a single general, but it also slows down the game further.... Slower Tech upgrades is often better, but it can become too slow.



Thers a catch with every system.

All level based rewards kills, not agression... so the defender will always tend to level faster... this rewads turteling, ESPECIALY in 1vs1

All upgrade or building based does not reward agression because its easier to build up superweapons and save your violence for the late game and blast your oponent with superweapons.

The beutey of a MIXED type is it gives you a goal that is different from your oponent. You can attack to get your level up for tech without fear of power leveling your enemy instead of you. the new catch is balancing takes alot more play testing. so far I prefer this because the catch is in the setup, not the gameplay. If the setup is done right then there is no catch that effects the end player.

[Wookien]

Dont change the idea pendaloese. The first idea is great! Just make flame levelbased and chem. upgradebased, then will it be fine.

[Pendaelose]

Dont change the idea pendaloese. The first idea is great! Just make flame levelbased and chem. upgradebased, then will it be fine.

I'm not changing it.. I'm just pointing out alternates.. though I'm not going to change Chem and flame on the list... reason being, if they are both level based Flame and Tank will be much to similare to play in my opinion. same solution exactly. build tanks, rush base... its bad enough that chem and tank will be that similare, but to have 2 chinas do the same like that would be a little painful. Also, Flame general is painfully attached to his abilty to tech up. at low level flame is grosely underpowerd compared to many other generals and would not be as well suited for a rush offense game.


chem general I have no personal atachment or even real desire to make a level based. chem is just on the list as level to make a 2 of each balance. and sense I'm not willing to move flame over, chem needs to be a level based to keep the list with a rythem I set:

Buidling has 2 USA, 1 China, 1 GLA
Upgrade has 2 China, 1 USA, 1 GLA
Level has 2 GLA, 1 USA, 1 China.

Also

Building has 2 Defensive, 1 versitile, 1 offensive
Upgrade has 2 Versitile, 1 Defensive, 1 Offensive
Level has 2 Offensive, 1 Defensive, 1 Versitle.



To keep both rythems as they are I can change very little. Chem and flame are swapable ebcause they are both Versitile and it would only make GLA upgrade favored and China level favored, but I m not willing to change flame. Keep in mind also, that the flame general in Remix is VERY VERY differnt from the flame general in Contra. He's a much more versitle general and much less of a rush general.

Edited by Pendaelose, 07 March 2006 - 04:32 AM.

[Creator]

The idea have just hit my head. It is the way how to calculate ballance between level based and upgrade/building based systems.

Let upgrades that level you up cost N1 and N2 ammount of money. Hence, buildings have to have the same cost. Now lets consider rank based level ups. Units have cost and such value as experience. Experience shows how many points your enemy get when he destroys your unit. Experience and cost depend on unit battle power. The more money you spend to your army - the more battle power you have - the more chances to get level up you have. The link between experience and money is:

Cost=sqrt(BP);
Exp=BP*a;
Where: sqrt - square root; BP - battle power; a - constant.

Hence,
Cost=sqrt(Exp/a)
and:
Exp=Cost*Cost*a

Hence, amount of experience should be:
R2+R3=N1*N1*a
R4+R5=N2*N2*a
Where: R2,R3,R4 and R5 are experience needed to gain rank 2,3,4 and 5.

I can calculate ballance for Remix myself or send needed constants to you, Pendaelose.

Edited by Creator, 07 March 2006 - 08:36 AM.

[Pendaelose]

The idea have just hit my head. It is the way how to calculate ballance between level based and upgrade/building based systems.

It looks pretty good. I'm curius to see how well it works. I think the strieght numbers might have to be tweeked in favor of the level based armies to adjust for home field advantage of the defender, but a solid number is definatly a gerat place to start play testing at.

Small changes you need to adjust for in the formula:

All basic Tanks are half cost. All basic infantry are quarter cost. Special units are full cost. So you get roughly double the BP for the same cost in Remix.

Remix has an aditional tech level. So, Instead of Being granted tech at Ranks 3 and 5, it will be 2,3,5

Tech1 costs 2000 or Rank2
Tech2 costs 4000 or Rank3
Tech3 costs 8000 or Rank5


I've not checked into Rank exp Costs yet, but I usualy hits these ranks at about the same time as reaching that tech.

[Pendaelose]

OK, its been a while sense the last post or vote, so I'm closing the voting. more than 2 to 1 in favor of the new system. Thats pretty steep, but not overly so. What I'm going to do it contenue making every general use the Upgrade secalation system for now, and when all 12 factions are finished then release another Alpha and ask the same question again with more details.

The odds are I WILL use the mixed system, but I'm going to put it off for a bit.