109 replies to this topic

[Az3r^]

I didn't flew off the handle as you call it. I was only wondering what makes him say that and whether he has any evidence apart from one person?

sorry blaat but to be honest CJ was right. imo . dont take things to heart, who cares if he doesnt have hard "evidence" its not like its an personal attack on you,
let it go.

[Athena]

I didn't mean it personally. I was just asking for some evidence, as it would be an interesting fact to look into, and to see whether there'd be a reason for it. But whatever, forget I was ever interested then, if you like to make claims/statements without backing them up with resources and/or evidence. Just don't expect me to believe it all right away. Now let's get back to the Druvianism topic what this was originally about.

[Az3r^]

I didn't mean it personally. I was just asking for some evidence, as it would be an interesting fact to look into, and to see whether there'd be a reason for it. But whatever, forget I was ever interested then, if you like to make claims/statements without backing them up with resources and/or evidence. Just don't expect me to believe it all right away. Now let's get back to the Druvianism topic what this was originally about.

fine.

ive just looked on there site/forums, now i dont know why the've put up our houses of parliment as links without authorisation ( i do believe ) but i took a read through the forums and seem to be making Own Druvanism ID cards.........sorry im Strictly against ID cards BS but making them for a party witch ( i hope ) wont become something big and stay as a online conspricy theory website.

i dont mean to offend anyone but that is how it comes across to me ........a bit OTT tbh

[Ash]

Spence was being sarcastic, as per his idiom. Don't take things so personally so constantly.

[MSpencer]

My only evidence is that ~70% of all hacker sites are in Dutch, and it's like the Asia of viruses, you've got all types of things coming out of there and they tend to be on timeshares for their time in the computer world.
And I pale to think about the just basic costs of keeping the Druvianism governmental façade together for two years. If all of Europe were to follow such a governmental system, they'd be broke within five years, and since the gold standard would be eliminated, all their trading partners would say "So you really say you have that gold? Really? We don't believe you" right before they go off to buy the exact same resources from other countries, or to sell their oil or ore to other countries with real gold based money. It's just how it would work, you won't find a country stupid enough to put their money in a bank that could collapse like a house of cards at any moment. The government sounds nice, and it sounds like it would give people representation, however it's a bit too easy to exploit everyone (Pump $1 billion into advertising and offer free hats or soda and I guarantee you you will get votes from stupid people) and for megacorporations to dictate the way the government heads. Not only that, but there is nothing provided for a way to amend the Constitution (The reason why the US system of government has survived so long is because of its adaptability), and you're putting the entire country into the hands of the citizens. That's really, really not a good idea. In the US we have problems with people voting for the right people, or even voting, and don't try to pull that cultural difference crap. We all know it, Americans and Europeans are 90% the same, the only real differences are languages, foods (We fucking hate marmite and boiled kidneys), and obesity. The system would not work anywhere, and not to mention, you'd need one hell of a backbone to make it work... like basically an industrial and economic powerhouse that's completely self-reliant and has some of the most brilliant minds running the economy. Think a John D. Rockefeller/Donald Trump/Franklin D. Roosevelt/Albert Speer/Hjalmar Schacht Think Tank, the resources of 90% of Asia, Europe, and the Americas, and the economy of the United States, all conveniently wrapped into a large landmass with a huge population and a gigantic industrial base.

[Comrade Kal]

This idea is Communism through the back door.

How can it be communism, idiot? Communism is the destruction of the class system, where this creates a caste system!

Also, there are far more differences between Europeans and Americans, and those which actually make a difference I might add. I'll exclude Britain from this as that's somewhere between the two, but as well as obesity, you have a general left-leaning political slant, whereas in America you have a right-leaning slant. Also, there's the lack of a bible belt, less trash culture, a greater price put on leisure rather than money, closer-knit families, and more culture.

Edited by Kal, 07 March 2006 - 07:20 PM.

[MSpencer]

1. We have people on the left here.
2. Not all Americans are fat. For starters, I'm not, and neither are the majority of people I know, thank you very much.
3. There are still Christians in Europe. Unfortunately, you're always going to have ultra-right Christians, and that wasn't helped by Eisenhower at all.
4. Trash culture? Lack of culture? Proof.
5. More emphasis on leisure than money? Believe me, not everyone in America is trying to get money.
6. And the best one for last, closer knit families. You have absolutely no proof for that one at all. Families are the same everywhere you go, just some tend to see each other more.
Face it, the differences between Americans and Europeans are few and far between. Europeans are just as easily manipulated as Americans are, we're all human.

[Hostile]

I say keep the link to revora there, so when people click here they can observe how conservative capitalists properly serve up a fresh cuisine of commies, smothered in a creamy socialism sauce, with a side dish of fresh totalitarism toasted to a light golden brown.

Wash that down with a tall cool refreshing glass of "rich people helping poor people become rich" and you'll sleep like a baby... bon appetite!

[Comrade Kal]

1. I believe I said 'general'.
2. Err, you said obesity. You didn't say "EVERY SINGLE PERSON HERE IS FAT!" Again, general. I can't speak for entire populations.
3. Far far less, and those that are aren't politically active.
4. I can't be bothered to dig out a load of information now but i'll maybe do it tomorrow. Although does America even have a culture of it's own other than the false american dream?
5. Again, general.
6. Families are the same everywhere you go? Bollocks.

[Hostile]

4. Trash culture? Lack of culture? Proof.
5. More emphasis on leisure than money? Believe me, not everyone in America is trying to get money.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11713891/

They certainly do value leisure more and what did you say again about US having trash culture or no culture?

[Comrade Kal]

Hostile, they'll be laughing at you, as you completely fail to grasp the concept of anything other than capitalism. And then we tell you how communism does something, and you say "but capitalism sort of does that.." and come up with some Jack o Nory story about how your half-baked plan should work in theory but in reality compeltely fails. You agree with the principles, so why not the system?

[MSpencer]

Kids, can we chill out or is this going to result in the cracking of skulls?

[Hostile]

Hostile, they'll be laughing at you, as you completely fail to grasp the concept of anything other than capitalism. And then we tell you how communism does something, and you say "but capitalism sort of does that.." and come up with some Jack o Nory story about how your half-baked plan should work in theory but in reality compeltely fails. You agree with the principles, so why not the system?

No one will be laughing at me sir. And I totally grasp your idea, in fact I felt the same way when I was your age. All idealist and such. Than I grew up and smelled the coffee. Capitalism focuses on the individual helping themselves and by doing that helping others. I'm not talking huge stock held companies that pinch peoples last pennie for basic services, I am talking about the small-medium sized business owners. You know the kind that create genius before being swallowed by big corporations.

Now there I have an issue and also promote caps to a companies growth. Reach a certain cap, and you have to spin something off. But you can't do that when other countries don't play by those rules like China. Just like your method, the perfect version relies on all players agreeing on the rules in order for it to work.

There is nothing wrong with individuals working as a group to help themselves, the whole communal thing is taking it abit too far. And frankly most people don't want it dude, to be honest...

[AdmiralGT]

I am actually lost for words. Words cannot actually describe how crap an idea this actually is. I'm so apathetic, it's just, in light of a better word, crap.

[Tom]

If i could remove the link i would have

Either way this Druvianism is drews ideology. I'm there to help him out and give him ideas. Trust me, drews not a guy who will back down from a few mere comments of what a majority of people don't even understand yet. The ideology has no be confirmed or decided. Taking it so literally when it is simply text on a site is just ridiculous. How many of you take me serious when i talk of things like the NWO or other conspiracy crap that is possibly going on.

Personally everyone knows my views. Decentralisation, allow the people to decide what style fo system to have in their own communities. If 2 communities wish to join in a capitalist system and another community prefers an anarchist system then whos to dictate how that works? As long as they respect each others laws and we have the centralise federal government to ensure theres no bureaucracy or typical laws being corrupted it should be fine. Whether that would work is unlikely to be found out in my lifetime, hence the reason i don't really take everything seriously. I'm not a serious guy anyway, a majority of people who know me realise this.

I admit, Drews ideology is currently a little different to what i expect. I expected his idea of the government to be more controlled by the people. Instead it has plans to remove democracy and pull power upwards still with the "majority" rule. I think it should be decided in communities. e.g. if one community is more liberal and doesn't mind legalisation of drugs, let them, it is their own responsibility to look after their community and if another one is more conservative and wants them banned, allow that to be a rule in their community. If you travel to another community you must abide by their rules. Just like in countries.

There is nothing wrong with individuals working as a group to help themselves, the whole communal thing is taking it abit too far. And frankly most people don't want it dude, to be honest...

I get you, but we need radical change to get humans to work the errors of their ways. Kals system also plans that. People need to be RESPONSIBLE. Its a word that so many fear nowadays its ridiculous. If we are not responsible for our world, our own world will erradicate us via nature. Viruses/global warming etc etc. Our world is a living organism too, pretty much. Nature works in balance, humans are imbalancing it.

[Drewry]

If I could say a few things...

Firstly, if you read the very first topics I wrote, I said I am creating the foundation - the rest is to be decided by you. The people will ultimately decide the very details of this system. Everything I have written is just my personal opinion. It is completely possible that the system that is actually implemented is very different from what I had in mind.

The whole purpose of adding revora as a list on the community was to send traffic to revora to boost discussion here as any new thread that talks about Druvianism will be posted here first as I like this community. I love that we don’t agree, I love that we have people like Spence and hostile, and we have people like kal and paradox. The secret is in the compromise. I like to think that my beliefs are in the very center, I do not side with communism and I do not side with capitalism. I believe there is a solution in between. To put it simply, I love you because you disagree. If everyone agreed, then how would we know we are not wrong?

Druvianism is a political movement, a movement to inspire the brilliant minds of this society into thinking up something new. Even if you believe we have good lives now, why not have a better life? I do not see any harm in brainstorming a way to have a better, corrupt-free life where everyone has true representation. For example of one of the items on debate is where will power be located in the federal system of the confederation? Should the power be focused on a national-supreme rule - where the national laws reign supreme; or should the power be focused in a community level where community laws reign supreme?

One of the largest problems with new ideals is ignorance. Kal, the class system as you know it is not what it is in Druvianism. The Caste System is a terrible system in which a man is grouped based by his birth right. He cannot change his class and if he does it takes great challenges. The class system in Druvianism is far different. It is basically a labor union, a way for people of the same job to unite together and a way to set standards for the people of that class. No more of women getting paid less than men, everyone starts the same no matter who you are. Another example is understanding the structure of the government. There is a national level, a territory level, a city level and a neighborhood or community level. Residents in between cities are placed to the closest city. Basically cities are becoming the new 'counties' or 'regions'. People set the standard for what qualifies as a city. With new zoning and new boundaries you can have things like gun free zones. Anything is possible, Druvianism does not advocate coming up with one idea and sticking with it, Druvianism is all about new ideas, a new way of looking at something - keeping an open mind. The first thing you see on the home page is "Minds are like parachutes, they work best when open". This is something I wish to strongly imply. Even if you think an idea - take Druvianism for example - is impossible, keep an open mind to it.

In summation, you may have your disagreements with Druvianism, and you may be just down right opposed to it. But all I ask of you is to keep an open mind. I don’t expect everyone to agree. If society agreed then there would be no reason for a system like Druvianism at all, now would there - we would all be commies like Kal

[Hostile]

I get you, but we need radical change to get humans to work the errors of their ways. Kals system also plans that. People need to be RESPONSIBLE. Its a word that so many fear nowadays its ridiculous. If we are not responsible for our world, our own world will erradicate us via nature. Viruses/global warming etc etc. Our world is a living organism too, pretty much. Nature works in balance, humans are imbalancing it.

I'll tell you how to make a huge dent in the issues. Teach finance at an early age and in the schools. Rich parents sit down with thier children and teach them "the business" But ALL kids should be taught the rules and workings of thier own capitalist system.

That would level the playing field. And they should also teach about the environment. Make kids more consious of throwing thrash or missing out on the big pictire that things need to change if we are to avoid polluting this world into decimation.

[AdmiralGT]

Corruption is the infallacy of the human. Some people will always work a situation to their advantage, over one another. Survival of the fittest, basic human instinct.

[Comrade Kal]

How can you get EVERYONE involved in business? The vast majority of people need to do manual labour, farming, etc. etc. Capitalism means you have to profit at the expense of someone else, so it's really an impossible system, even the most die-hard capitalist will tell you it's IMPOSSIBLE for anyone but a small number to succeed.

[Hostile]

100 years ago, most people were self employed. Each person ran thier own businesses, farms, shops, and such. Contrary to what you think, you don't need to exploit people to run a business. Business provides a service needed.

And many people enjoy being an employee. There is nothing wrong with that. So I'm not an extremist and think that everyone HAS to run thier own business. But it's still good to know how one operates a business.

Capitalism is not inherently evil. People are. It's not the method of economics as much as the decay of human character. But with capitalism's focus on one helping themselves, it does allow more flexibility for one to "choose thier own destiny" moreso than communism.

"There is one person who can fire everyone in the company from the CEO down to the lowest level employee, and that is the customer, by taking thier business elsewhere." ~Founder of Walmart