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Walls and Fences in ZH


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Poll: Walls and Fences (21 member(s) have cast votes)

Should walls be added to ZH?

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#1 Pendaelose

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Posted 07 March 2006 - 05:19 PM

When refering to walls, the will include Wall builders, Fences, Walls. Walls will be able to upgrade with defense addons and mine fields. Fences will upgrade with mine fields only.


Right now I'm leaning toward all generals having fences, and about half of all generals being able to build fences and walls.


Fences would require only a supply depo. Walls would require a stategy center.
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Between now and the next polished release there should be very little new art work done. Instead the focus is on designing, testing, and fixing. the mod has always been so close to finished that its nearly criminal. I'd love to see this through to the end with a real community effort.


#2 Gredinus

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Posted 07 March 2006 - 05:27 PM

well agresive gens shuld get fences, flexible gens shuld get sandbag walls and turtle gens shuld get concreat walls.
But we could mix things up like in the tech systems.

Edited by Gredinus, 07 March 2006 - 05:28 PM.

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#3 Red Alpha

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Posted 07 March 2006 - 06:08 PM

i think the walls should at leas be strong enough to stand agains 3 fairly big attacks like the defence structures itself ... maybe u should also make vehicle hurls stay sollid like the bayttle bus when detroyed so they can be barriers themselfs and could there be ant tank and full barriers (anti tank = barriers like in zh gla mission 4 with the tomahawks)

#4 Pendaelose

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Posted 07 March 2006 - 07:12 PM

well agresive gens shuld get fences, flexible gens shuld get sandbag walls and turtle gens shuld get concreat walls.
But we could mix things up like in the tech systems.



I don't like sand bag barriers. They don't serve a direct purpse other than to fill a role in between the other two. I think it would be better to give truely agressive armies no fencing, flexable fencing, and defensive both.

The purpose of walls over fences wouldn't be to absorb more damage, but to add differnt types of deterent...

Fences only have the purpose of cost-effectivly hemming infantry movement, and slowing tanks with minefields. Infantry are cheaper and more plentiful now, so there is need for a wider variety of anti-infantry defenses. A fence run along a open area with a few base defenses behind it would be a road block to infantry, but a just a speed bump to tanks and artillery. This moves infantry to a more apropriate defensive role where they excell at holding ground. (even in real life infantry hold ground. Armor and air can take ground, it takes infantry to hold it.)

the primary purpose of walls would be to slow/guide enemy vehichle movement. The reason for base defenses on the wall is because walls block line of sight, and defenses behind it can't fire over unless they are artillery type weapons.


As there is nothing in ZH between infantry and vehichles there is no need for a barrier type in between them.

I'm not intending to make walls/fences a stand alone defense for a base the way they are in BMFE. I intend for them to just be an extra element to a combined arms defense line.


i think the walls should at leas be strong enough to stand agains 3 fairly big attacks like the defence structures itself ... maybe u should also make vehicle hurls stay sollid like the bayttle bus when detroyed so they can be barriers themselfs and could there be ant tank and full barriers (anti tank = barriers like in zh gla mission 4 with the tomahawks)


the exact toughness of walls still has to be worked out... it will take alot of play testing. Too strong and they overpower turtteling. too week and they are no use at all.

Making hulks solid has its ups and downs... It would be fairly realistic, but it would also be a serious pain for a large attacking ground force... imagine, you have 30 tanks making an assault. 1 volly of defense fire kills your first rank of tanks... now, because of 5 dead tanks you can't advance any of your ground force forward to attack.
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Between now and the next polished release there should be very little new art work done. Instead the focus is on designing, testing, and fixing. the mod has always been so close to finished that its nearly criminal. I'd love to see this through to the end with a real community effort.


#5 Capt.Drake

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Posted 08 March 2006 - 04:37 PM

Walls and Fences are ok, but I would suggets Dragonteeth then concreat walls and perhaps the same things like on Omaha Beach

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#6 Pendaelose

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Posted 08 March 2006 - 05:08 PM

Walls and Fences are ok, but I would suggets Dragonteeth then concreat walls and perhaps the same things like on Omaha Beach



The catch with Dragon's Teath or Steal star baracades to stop tanks is that they should let infantry through too, and I don't think thats possible in ZH... The engine doesn't see Semi-Permiable... it only respects CrusherLevel values. If a fence has a crushableflevel of 2, it will be a firm block in the way of light vehichles and infantry, but a tank could crush it. A wall would need a level of 4 so nothing could run it over, except maby something big enough to run over an overlord... and theres nothing that big yet or planned.

The problem is theres nothing in between... It either everything smaller than X, or nothing, you can't go backwards and only block larger.
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Between now and the next polished release there should be very little new art work done. Instead the focus is on designing, testing, and fixing. the mod has always been so close to finished that its nearly criminal. I'd love to see this through to the end with a real community effort.


#7 Capt.Drake

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Posted 09 March 2006 - 04:52 PM

pend just try it, or add barbed wire too it, soo it's more antitank, and another thing with concerted wall, which is not so good against tanks

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#8 Red Alpha

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Posted 09 March 2006 - 08:11 PM

i think it is posible to malke walls that they let infantry pass trough and tanks not becose u can drive trough them with vehicles but not with infantry maybe u should use that

#9 Logical2u

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Posted 09 March 2006 - 10:42 PM

Why don't you use a larger wall type structure?
Make it sort of like the Harsh Realm fence.

First layer: Electrified. Infantry die and vehicles short. Heavy vehicles crush it.
Second layer: Tank traps.
Final layer: Sandbags/Concrete Wall.

Edit: I just realized that that isn't possible at all.

Maybe just add an electrified concrete wall with tank traps around it as the wall unit, that way you can justify why infantry and tanks don't go around/through it.

Or, you could just building defences.
That would work.

Edited by Logical2u, 10 March 2006 - 12:28 AM.


#10 Pendaelose

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Posted 13 March 2006 - 05:31 PM

pend just try it, or add barbed wire too it, soo it's more antitank, and another thing with concerted wall, which is not so good against tanks

i think it is posible to malke walls that they let infantry pass trough and tanks not becose u can drive trough them with vehicles but not with infantry maybe u should use that


There is no try it... there is nothing permiable to infantry but not tanks, and there is nothing permiable to tanks and not infantry... Generals doesn't include code to only allow SOME type of units through at all... the only reason a fence can be made to block infantry but not tanks is because the tank can CRUSH the fence... It didn't pass through the fence, it crushed it... .... crushing works on a number scale. you have a crusher number, and a crushable number... If any unit's crusher number is bigger than another units crushable unit, the smaller unit gets crushed. It can't be run backwards or used to block only some unit types.


Why don't you use a larger wall type structure?
Make it sort of like the Harsh Realm fence.

I'm not familiare with Harsh Realm. I do intend to make the concrete walls fairly large and tough, much the way they were in the old RedAlert1 (I didn't play RA2, so I don't know about it)


First layer: Electrified. Infantry die and vehicles short. Heavy vehicles crush it.
Second layer: Tank traps.
Final layer: Sandbags/Concrete Wall.

Edit: I just realized that that isn't possible at all.

Maybe just add an electrified concrete wall with tank traps around it as the wall unit, that way you can justify why infantry and tanks don't go around/through it.

Or, you could just building defences.
That would work.



There actualy are ways to finangle/fake the code into doing that, but its alot of work and is prone to being buggy. Instead I'm going to just give heavy walls defense addon points, and mine fields. This should make a very stout deterent.

Edited by Pendaelose, 13 March 2006 - 05:35 PM.

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Between now and the next polished release there should be very little new art work done. Instead the focus is on designing, testing, and fixing. the mod has always been so close to finished that its nearly criminal. I'd love to see this through to the end with a real community effort.


#11 Guest_Guest_Wookien_*_*

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Posted 13 March 2006 - 09:09 PM

I know (ive tried it in the editor) that you can make things that stand with such a little space between them, that only infantry can pass through. If you forced the player to make this space between the tank-barriers, infantry could go through?

#12 Logical2u

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Posted 13 March 2006 - 09:43 PM

Harsh realm was a very very short running SciFi show, in which a virtual reality simulation of the actual world, after a nuclear attack, has left the USA divided, so the US military sends strategists and soldiers in to see how many "Points" they can get...
The antagonist is a mexican who builds a giant wall around his territory, and scarily enough if he attacks anywhere, his troops expand the wall on the fly, granting him immediate expansion of territory. It was doubled layered, electrified, etc. There were only 3 episodes aired, but there were 13 made. I watched the DVDs awhile back.

If I remember correctly, RA2 walls stopped tanks, but they were very easily destroyable. Infantry were also blocked.
Attacking a nearby object resulted in the walls blocking the attack, but the walls ended up destroyed quickly.

You're going to make BFME2 styled walls? I see. That seems like a very smart idea, actually. I like it.
(BFME2: Battle for Middle Earth 2. Added walls that are constructable, but every 3rd wall segment you could add a defensive structure, like a gate, or an arrow tower.)

Now for the random gratuitous question...
Would overlords and uber units walk right over fences/walls?

#13 Pendaelose

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Posted 14 March 2006 - 12:48 AM

Harsh realm was a very very short running SciFi show, in which a virtual reality simulation of the actual world, after a nuclear attack, has left the USA divided, so the US military sends strategists and soldiers in to see how many "Points" they can get...
The antagonist is a mexican who builds a giant wall around his territory, and scarily enough if he attacks anywhere, his troops expand the wall on the fly, granting him immediate expansion of territory. It was doubled layered, electrified, etc. There were only 3 episodes aired, but there were 13 made. I watched the DVDs awhile back.

If I remember correctly, RA2 walls stopped tanks, but they were very easily destroyable. Infantry were also blocked.
Attacking a nearby object resulted in the walls blocking the attack, but the walls ended up destroyed quickly.

You're going to make BFME2 styled walls? I see. That seems like a very smart idea, actually. I like it.
(BFME2: Battle for Middle Earth 2. Added walls that are constructable, but every 3rd wall segment you could add a defensive structure, like a gate, or an arrow tower.)

Now for the random gratuitous question...
Would overlords and uber units walk right over fences/walls?


Theres a tough decision of balance to make... If a wall is an effective movment barrier, then making it overly tough is a HUGE advantage to the defender and it makes the games very unbalanced in favor of the defender. BFME1 had this problem.

The walls have to be tough, but can't be alolowed to be TOO tough...

In ZH there are some limits to construction...

As far as I know, there are no exsisting means to make a drag and drop wall like in BFME2. I do have some ideas of how to do it, but I'm not sure how well it will work... still I will be trying it in the name of expiermentation.

the second solution is to offer a variety of wall segments, junctions, and wall patches that can be built by a dedicated wall building unit. There is some flexability in this method... a very long wall unit could be placed by the player and then be broken ip into smaller, seperate sections for taking damage

The final piece of good news is I've figured out how to code a gate type enterance.


and the random gratuitus answer being... the walls would be too big for overlords to run over

Edited by Pendaelose, 14 March 2006 - 12:49 AM.

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Between now and the next polished release there should be very little new art work done. Instead the focus is on designing, testing, and fixing. the mod has always been so close to finished that its nearly criminal. I'd love to see this through to the end with a real community effort.


#14 Taran

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Posted 16 March 2006 - 01:03 PM

IF YOU DO IT IM CREATE a YOU STATUTE!!!
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#15 Pendaelose

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Posted 16 March 2006 - 02:00 PM

IF YOU DO IT IM CREATE a YOU STATUTE!!!


Cool, but If I get the walls to be drag-and-drop like in BFME2 then I want a statue bigger than anything Lenin had ;) :p :)
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Between now and the next polished release there should be very little new art work done. Instead the focus is on designing, testing, and fixing. the mod has always been so close to finished that its nearly criminal. I'd love to see this through to the end with a real community effort.


#16 Slye_Fox

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Posted 16 March 2006 - 07:08 PM

Cool, but If I get the walls to be drag-and-drop like in BFME2 then I want a statue bigger than anything Lenin had ;) :p :)


I've allready tried to do that for ConRed, it dosn't work that way.

If you do you the drag code, the wall will instantly apear and the construction unit dosn't go over to build it.

Just make a normal structure and make it use a wall art code, and add WALL to it's keytags.

see pic for example.

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#17 Pendaelose

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Posted 16 March 2006 - 07:54 PM

I've allready tried to do that for ConRed, it dosn't work that way.

If you do you the drag code, the wall will instantly apear and the construction unit dosn't go over to build it.

Just make a normal structure and make it use a wall art code, and add WALL to it's keytags.

see pic for example.



Actualy I didn't know there was an exsisting drag command/code I was looking at making it a completely differnt way. I was going to build a wallHub that used a "weapon" to fire a shot to a marked spot, then the shot (invisible) would spawn the wall pieces behind it and at its detonation create a wall hub.

Although, there ARE ways around the problem you described. Instead of the dragging creating a finished wall it can be used to create a serries of time-to-live system objects that hav a death behavior similar to the GLA hole and it "rebuilds" its self at a controled pace. thus creating an ilusion of a wall that takes time to build.

Can you point me in the right direction of finding the Drag code so I can play with it and see what I can make?
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Between now and the next polished release there should be very little new art work done. Instead the focus is on designing, testing, and fixing. the mod has always been so close to finished that its nearly criminal. I'd love to see this through to the end with a real community effort.


#18 Slye_Fox

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Posted 16 March 2006 - 08:32 PM

Can you point me in the right direction of finding the Drag code so I can play with it and see what I can make?


Just look at the wall object in gens allready.

Object ChinaWall
Object ChinaWallHub
Object AmericaWall
Object AmericaWallHub
Object GLAWall
Object GLAWallHub

Edited by Slye_Fox, 16 March 2006 - 08:32 PM.


#19 Pendaelose

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Posted 16 March 2006 - 09:13 PM

Can you point me in the right direction of finding the Drag code so I can play with it and see what I can make?


Just look at the wall object in gens allready.

Object ChinaWall
Object ChinaWallHub
Object AmericaWall
Object AmericaWallHub
Object GLAWall
Object GLAWallHub


thats funny... I never realized they were in there. I've always modded a mod and spent very little time in the original source files.
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Between now and the next polished release there should be very little new art work done. Instead the focus is on designing, testing, and fixing. the mod has always been so close to finished that its nearly criminal. I'd love to see this through to the end with a real community effort.


#20 Pendaelose

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Posted 20 March 2006 - 09:21 PM

18 to 3 in favor of having walls and fences... ... I think that's a pretty clear vote.

I'll have walls and fences in game before the next alpha. Not every general will have acess to walls and fences, but most will. A small number will have nothing, most will have only fences, a few will have walls.
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Between now and the next polished release there should be very little new art work done. Instead the focus is on designing, testing, and fixing. the mod has always been so close to finished that its nearly criminal. I'd love to see this through to the end with a real community effort.





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