44 replies to this topic

[Solinx]

Well Ill leave the old factions in because there wont be new AI and i want to fight against someone and not only online.

Should have thought about that myself.
Note to self: Don't post in the late hours anymore, you only forget things or mix them up.

I actually wasnt going to have the units as single units. Now that you mention it that may be a good idea though hard to pull off, (single units die too fast to buildings with defenses)

I'm starting to like this more and more. Defense buildings shouldn't be a problem, I heard they have their own damagetype (structural).

Solinx, I think that BFME2 encounters problems if theres less than 6 factions

Never tried removing one...yet.
I'm curious what the message will look like.

Solinx

Edited by Solinx, 04 April 2006 - 05:06 PM.

[zimoo]

Yeah I've never tried removing one either but Kelso discovered that problems arise if theres less than 6 factions. LINK

[Lord Dragonclaw]

I suppose defensive towers will have weak damage to compensate. There will however be some horde units in the Sherwood faction, namely peasents and raiding cavalry. But most will be single units that are strong fighters with weaker armor and more health. Also siege weapons (rams and catapults) will be vital in assulting the enemy buildings as they would easily pick off your units with arrows. Sherwood will get catapults also.

Edited by Lord Dragonclaw, 04 April 2006 - 05:52 PM.

[zimoo]

Sounds good, I was always annoyed by how little siege was used in BFME.

[Tomat]

i even might download buy the game


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srry about that. I woud not get it anyway. I have problems playing with such graphics. I dont know why.

Edited by Tomat, 04 April 2006 - 06:37 PM.

[Lord Dragonclaw]

Such graphics? The graphics suck in that game. Their HORRIBLE when zoomed in. Download the demo

[Solinx]

Such graphics? The graphics suck in that game. Their HORRIBLE when zoomed in. Download the demo

I think that's what he meant

Yeah I've never tried removing one either but Kelso discovered that problems arise if theres less than 6 factions. LINK

After my last post I just edited "Playertemplate.ini", commenting the mordor faction out.
Then I used 3 rounds with 7 random opponents to test if it worked.
Not a single opponent was Mordor. There is about 2% chance that this could happen with mordor still in the list, which I am willing to ignore.
After the tests I returned, saw your post and followed the link. There I only learned two things: I learned that 95% of their problems where (probably) comming from having only 4 playable factions and I learned that the stats give problems, because they need 6 playable factions.
I skimmed their forum for more info about the other problems, but didn't find any. Then I checked on the stats, which show up, just like normal, including the mordor faction.
I don't know, but as far as I can tell, removing a faction isn't that much of a problem.

But let's keep this on topic, and open a new one if someone wants to say more about removing a faction. Unless of course that someone is Lord Dragonclaw

I suppose defensive towers will have weak damage to compensate. There will however be some horde units in the Sherwood faction, namely peasents and raiding cavalry. But most will be single units that are strong fighters with weaker armor and more health. Also siege weapons (rams and catapults) will be vital in assulting the enemy buildings as they would easily pick off your units with arrows. Sherwood will get catapults also.

Since you will be using some hords, I suggest you leave the damage of the towers be and instead change the armor of the single units.
It's good to hear that siege weapons will play an important role in besieging castles, just make sure they will stay in that role. Setting up siege equipment takes time, aiming it right takes time. Don't make them to strong against regular troops, that would destroy the value of these troops.

In short: Siege equipment for siege, troops for the open battleground.

Solinx

Edited by Solinx, 04 April 2006 - 08:05 PM.

[Lord Dragonclaw]

Such graphics? The graphics suck in that game. Their HORRIBLE when zoomed in. Download the demo

I think that's what he meant

I suppose defensive towers will have weak damage to compensate. There will however be some horde units in the Sherwood faction, namely peasents and raiding cavalry. But most will be single units that are strong fighters with weaker armor and more health. Also siege weapons (rams and catapults) will be vital in assulting the enemy buildings as they would easily pick off your units with arrows. Sherwood will get catapults also.

Since you will be using some hords, I suggest you leave the damage of the towers be and instead change the armor of the single units.
It's good to hear that siege weapons will play an important role in besieging castles, just make sure they will stay in that role. Setting up siege equipment takes time, aiming it right takes time. Don't make them to strong against regular troops, that would destroy the value of these troops.
In short: Siege equipment for siege, troops for the open battleground.

Solinx

Will be hard to code but it is possible. Though siege would kill troops if it happened to hit them I suppose Ill make catapults take time to fire giving the troops the ability to run like cowards Main problem here is the fact that no one yet has decided to help me. Not even my own MODDING clan is bothering to help me -.-

Edited by Lord Dragonclaw, 04 April 2006 - 08:06 PM.

[Fingulfin]

LOL... I would offer my services, but my coding is still pretty weak, and I HATE making Skirmish maps! That makes me good for... Errr... Umm... Arena maps?

EDIT: O yeah I can do map.ini! Thats why they let me in VAL! LOL I guess I can Bind, but its really boring (I wonder why thats my job?.?.?.?)

Edited by Fingulfin, 04 April 2006 - 08:44 PM.

[Solinx]

Will be hard to code but it is possible. Though siege would kill troops if it happened to hit them I suppose Ill make catapults take time to fire giving the troops the ability to run like cowards Main problem here is the fact that no one yet has decided to help me. Not even my own MODDING clan is bothering to help me -.-

What I was thinking about, is to make the aiming time high, while somehow disabling the turning of the catapults during that time. You can either aim with or move a catapult, not both. That way making it hard (or rather impossible) to shoot any moving targets, unless you use bombardment on a place troops have to pass. Against targets that can't or won't move it will be devestating.

In order to make it possible to get your siege equipement to the opponents castle, they will need to be more sturdy. Two sword hits shouldn't destroy a catapult anyway. Still, you can't just send out a catapult on it's own. You'll need troops around it, giving a good use to formations and adding to the strategy part of the game.

Another thing about catapults: Spread of fire, catapults are hard to aim with, but it are the catapults that always hit in BFME. As far as i know, this isn't a hard thing to code, arrows can miss and there is an option to let the missing shots do damage. Ideally the spread would get smaller with each shot, but that would probably be impossible or to hard for such a small gain. A small spread would do the trick, pleasing the attacker, because most shots will hit the target and at the same time put in some realism. The defending party has a bit more time to arrange a counter, stimulating more fights around a siege. And lastly, by adding a little spread, the catapult is again less effective against troops. The hordes will still likely be hit, but a single unit will only be troubled by some stones flying up, which might even be defined as light area damage effect. This kind of changes make the thingy that shoots big arrows or trows a big rock, not only look, but function like a balista or catapult.

Seeing as you allready had doubts about the earlier post I made, I think you'll be shocked by now.
How about this: I'm thinking about joining your new team as a ini editor. At least I'll try to make the catapult work the way I just described, wether you want it or not.

Solinx

[Fingulfin]

Hoozah! Your catuapult logic is very good! This will definately be a MOD I will try out! As far as walls go, what were you planning on doing? Just the normal BFME 2 walls? Or were you going to make some new Walkable ones like in BFME 1?

Edited by Fingulfin, 04 April 2006 - 10:47 PM.

[Solinx]

Hoozah! Your catuapult logic is very good!

Thank you!

As far as walls go, what were you planning on doing? Just the normal BFME 2 walls? Or were you going to make some new Walkable ones like in BFME 1?

I read somewhere that, because of the big pathfinding problems, walkable walls are a real though job. :(

The way I see walls is that they are invulnerable to damage from normal units. If I were a swordman and would come across a castle, I would certainly not try to attack the walls with my sword.
As I said before, catapults are for siege, troops for the battlefield. Let's start from the beginning with this in mind. There are two party's involved, equal in strenght. After a number of battles in the open both have been able to build a strong castle.
Player A is going to lay siege on player B. First he has to build the catapults (cost & buildtime left to balance), then he has to transport them to the opponents castle. Because of the slower rate of movement they need protection. They are only usefull against stationairy units or structures and can't defend themselfs from any moving units. When the catapults arrive at the castle, they will need some time to aim. Not too long, but certainly longer than now, giving player B some time to prepare for the assault. Setting up a siege equipment costs time and they would be spotted from a castle at least some time before they would be ready to fire.

Now about the walls, they would be hit on more than one section (boulders spread), making the wall last a bit longer, then if all boulders would hit the same place. Because of the area of effect that boulders have the delay will be small. At the same time this creates an advantage to the besieger (player A), because when the wall is down, there will be a larger opening. That's why I cancel these two things out.
Leaving it to the siege duration to determen the damage that each boulder should do to the wall. Since the difficulty of getting siege equipment over to the siege, and the risk of losing them at the siege, possibly before firing a shot, player A would be best adviced to make more than one catapult. When determening the damage of the catapult, I would use 3 catapults. By using the reinforcement counter, the ingame time is readable. I'm still unsure about the amount of time that should be given to break the siege, before the walls go down. Perhaps 2 minutes (in game time). Figures are all subjected to balance changes after the final objects are added, so it isn't really worth the effort of discussing them yet.

But as I began, this is the way I see it. This mod is of Lord Dragonclaw, and I'm curios to know what he thinks about both the catapult and the wall.

Solinx

[Fingulfin]

Ok... It looks neat, but it takes so long to make walls... Most people dont do them cause they cost alot, take a long time to build, and hey, if you could rush your oponent whats the point in any type of turtling? Sounds like you need a mapper if you want seiges! If you do decided you want a mapper Ill gladly volunteer! This message is for LordDragonclaw of course.

Edited by Fingulfin, 05 April 2006 - 12:50 AM.

[Solinx]

Ok... It looks neat, but it takes so long to make walls... Most people dont do them cause they cost alot, take a long time to build, and hey, if you could rush your oponent whats the point in any type of turtling?

Rushing...maybe there should be two types of walls.
1. Very cheap, temporary walls, even weaker than the ones allready in the game and also attackable by all/most units.
2. The strong walls, which are more expensive, but only destroyable by siege equipment.
That way, you can set up a first defense line to get some protection from rushes. After you got those strong walls a rush isn't as easy to pull off, because they will always need the time consuming siege equipment.

Solinx

Edit: I just thought about this: Several upgrade stages for the walls. The walls you start building will be weak, but get stro....no never mind, it won't work because of the cost balance, or at least it would be very hard to balance it this way.

Edited by Solinx, 05 April 2006 - 10:25 AM.

[Lord Dragonclaw]

One huge problem is wall spamming. I hate people that do that. Walls will be invulnerable to anything but siege, but siege will take down walls fast. Wall upgrade spamming is also annoying so the only upgrades will be arrow towers, gates, and postern gates. Is it not logical that postern gates cost more than normal gates? After all its an invisible way to gain entry is it not? It should cost more thus promoting the use of actual gates. Also I dont want the arrow towers to be everywhere so either a cost increase or make arrow towers weak or both. Of course I do need a mapper for some of the maps that will be made, (Nottingham, Sherwood, and other castles) Walkable walls will be too hard to pull off so Ill stick with the normal unwalkable ones. However Sherwood isnt gonna get walls anyway (who ever heard of walls in the forest?) Solinex your wall/catapult ideas are perfect though I dont know if itd be able to be done but Im willing to try! One thing.. There has to be some way to forcce the player to build walls. Perhaps making siege wipe out buildings very fast then they would need walls for protection. Also perhaps there would also be a flaming projectile mode, this would take a very LONG time to prepare but when it does fire it splashes the ground with fire. On another note heres some hero ideas:

Robin Hood (Stealthed in trees, long range powerful archer who is just as good as a swordsman, can climb walls)
Toggle Bow/Sword
Leader of the outlaws (grants 100% attack and 50% armor to nearby units)
Prince of Thieves (level 2: can steal money from enemy farms)
Cloak (level 3: becomes invisible)
Disguise (level 5: looks like enemy unit for a time)
Silver Arrow (level 10: very powerful arrow attack)
Clover (invisible ability, grants 50% health when robin dies, like gimlis grudge)

Little John (stealthed in trees, alot of health and powerful attacks)
Leadership (grants 100% experience and 100% attack to nearby footsoldiers)
Sweeping Blow (level 2: knocks back units in front of him)
Cloak (level 3: becomes invisible)
Battle Fury (level 10: gains 200% attack, 200% attack speed and 50% armor for a while)
Clover (read above)

Maid Marian (stealthed in trees, powerful sword attacks but weakish armor)
Healing Herbs (heals nearby units and heroes)
Mount
Swordmaster (level 2: gains 100% attack and 100% armor)
Cloak (level 3:becomes invisible while standing still)
Clover (read above)

Friar Tuck (stealthed in trees)
Leg of Meat (heals himself)
Throw Wasp Nest (level 2: MUHAHAHAHA, it mainly stuns units nearby where it lands though in the game they would be yelling "THERES A WASP IN MY ARMOR!!!" or "DAMN WASPS!!!" or mostly "AHHHHHHHHHH WASPS ARE STINGIN ME DAMN IT" I wish I could make them do that it would be hilarious but i doubt its possible)
Cloak (level 3, he needs a big one because hes fat lol but it makes him invisible while he stands still)
Convert (level 5: converts an enemy unit permenantly)
Clover

Will Scarlet (can hide in trees, powerful attacks with knockback, can climb walls)
Slingshot (fires slingshot, knocks down units it hits, very short recharge)
Swing Flail (level 2: knocks back units around him dealing alot of damage as well)
Cloak (level 3: becomes invisible)
Crushing Blow (level 4: targets single unit dealing massive damage to it and also stunning it if it survives.
Sabatoge (level 6: deals massive damage to buildings and also makes them unable to be used)
Fight To The Death (level 10: just like boromirs last stand)

[zimoo]

Maybe you could make it so that arrow towers only work if they're garrisoned with units?

BTW, I like your idea of the postern gates costing more than the normal gate. You should make it cost atleast double the amount though to try and get people to use gates (ATM I only use gates for allowing big units to pass through)

[Solinx]

One huge problem is wall spamming. I hate people that do that. Walls will be invulnerable to anything but siege, but siege will take down walls fast.

I'm right with you on that. Maybe the cheap walls can be made real temporary. Like a summon, they would disappear after a short time. The good walls could have a radius around them where no other walls can be build. That and limiting the range from a fortress that walls can be build can supress wall spamming. This is a could very well be impossible to mod, but if it can be done...

Wall upgrade spamming is also annoying so the only upgrades will be arrow towers, gates, and postern gates. Is it not logical that postern gates cost more than normal gates? After all its an invisible way to gain entry is it not? It should cost more thus promoting the use of actual gates. Also I dont want the arrow towers to be everywhere so either a cost increase or make arrow towers weak or both.

I agree with you that stealthed gates should be more expensive, now I just never use the normal gates.
About upgrade spamming, what about increasing the space that needs to be between two upgrades?
About the tower problem, maybe, apart from raising the cost (and buildtime), limit the number you can build, this can be done with units, maybe also with buildings.

Solinex your wall/catapult ideas are perfect though I dont know if itd be able to be done but Im willing to try! One thing.. There has to be some way to forcce the player to build walls. Perhaps making siege wipe out buildings very fast then they would need walls for protection. Also perhaps there would also be a flaming projectile mode, this would take a very LONG time to prepare but when it does fire it splashes the ground with fire.

Thanks! At this moment I am already starting with a catapult. Just leave the coding to me. The only thing you'll have to worry about is the models. As I see it, the main problem will be the balancing. Between the damage it does to walls and the damage it takes from other units, etc.

Making normal buildings easier to destroy, only with siege equipment, makes having walls somewhat a requirement, which opens up more strategic battles. I'm all for it!

About the fire mode: After I have implented the basic changes I have in mind, I'll try to get the flaming thing to work. I'm fairly sure it won't be that hard, because the dwarven fortress catapult has a similar effect.

On another note heres some hero ideas:

Looking good!

Maybe you could make it so that arrow towers only work if they're garrisoned with units?

A last minute quote from Zimoo. This is an very interesting idea and I think also very easy to implent. It limits the number of effective towers, scalling to the number of troops allowed in the game, and adds to the cost of an effective tower. A third point is that players won't be annoyed about it so fast as a building limit on towers.
Im all for it

Edit: I was thinking about removing the weapon of towers completely, the archers within should shoot by themself. But maybe that nerves towers too much to be worth building.

Solinx

Edited by Solinx, 05 April 2006 - 05:13 PM.

[Lord Dragonclaw]

Good ideas. Towers being garrisonable to work is a good idea in itself Also do you have msn, yahoo, AIM, or xfire? Mod Forums

Edited by Lord Dragonclaw, 05 April 2006 - 11:04 PM.

[Solinx]

Some progress on the catapult is made. I copied the gondor trebuchet code in (almost) all involved files and started from there.

The new trebuchets now spread their boulders, are a bit more though, more expensive and slower. The trebuchet of gondor already had an area effect, I just hadn't noticed that before.
Besides that I also greatly increased the preattackdelay, which roots them to one place for some time if they want to fire. The problem with this solution is that the animation doesn't change along. But I wanted to do all the code first, the animations can be fixed later.
At this moment I'm half way on getting your fire idea to work. I got all the code there (I think) and the buttons and upgrades work, it just won't fire. So I've probably forgot something.
I tried to finish everything before today, but because of some error I couldn't find, I had to redo the whole thing from zero. Sadly, I can't work on the code before next monday, so you'll have to wait a bit longer for any real results.

Solinx

Btw. I have msn. I'll add you next week, otherwise I'd be to much distracted by the modding

[Lord Dragonclaw]

Mod on hold until Im interested again. Been playing BF2 lately, makes BFME2 look like shit.