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Steel Legion 1.5


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#1 ThetaOrion

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Posted 15 April 2006 - 01:16 AM

Well, everybody knows how disappointed I am with the Eldar in 1.75 of the AI Skirmish Mod and Steel Legion 1.5 at the HARD setting on the larger maps -- over a month without a single win as the Eldar at the HARD setting on Mountain Trails and Soul Forge and Mortalis.

As a betatester, my job is to find things to complain about.

But, I wanted to take a moment and tell everyone how pleased I am with the performance and the production and the balance and the feel and the play of the new Steel Legion. Thud is blaming all the goodness on Arkhan and Larkin, but I just wanted to say that there is plenty of goodness to go around.

While playing as the Steel Legion on Mountain Trails at the HARD setting, I didn't run into production issues, and though each game was long and difficult, I was able to win. The Steel Legion hasn't been nerfed. They aren't impossible for me to win with at the HARD setting.

Remember, anyone, all the complaints I had about the Chaos not getting a BloodThirster during the Skirmish Mod Betas?

Well, while playing as the Steel Legion, not only is it possible to beat the Chaos at the HARD setting with the Steel Legion if you work at it, but I have also seen three different BloodThirsters in three different games on Mountain Trails from the enemy Chaos AI. This is Mountain Trails, and the Chaos in the Steel Legion Mod are producing BloodThirsters along with all their tanks. It's also neat with the Steel Legion to have tanks that can actually stand up to the Chaos spam, and their main troop can take and hold ground too against the Orks, and their production keeps up with the enemy AI's production just fine.

The Steel Legion Mod is good stuff, and when you play as the Steel Legion, it seems to have a good balance and some troops that can last and do damage against the enemy, troops that can hold ground so you don't lose all your listening posts.

So, even though the Eldar are a losing and disappointing faction for me at the HARD setting on these medium and larger maps in Steel Legion and the AI Skirmish Mod, the Steel Legion modders seem to have gotten the balance of the Steel Legion right at the HARD setting for the human player who is playing as the Steel Legion. It's difficult to win, and you have to work at it, but it's not impossible to win playing as the Steel Legion at the HARD setting, unlike how it is impossible for me to win as the Eldar.

I still can't get over the Eldar. Their units still cost twice as much, but their units are no longer twice as powerful. I can't even get Banshees to stand one-on-one against Bezerkers, and Plain Vanilla 1.41 Banshees could stand up against Chaos factions all day long and last, back in the Plain Vanilla days.

Anyway, while complaining about the things I didn't like, I wanted to take a moment and try to give equal attention to something that I do like, playing as the Steel Legion at the HARD setting on Thudo's favorite map.

Good stuff!!

#2 ThetaOrion

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Posted 15 April 2006 - 07:58 AM

I post this here, because on Relic Forums Thud keeps bragging that this is Steel Legion Mod is one of his, the AI anyway.

I can even win 6P Soul Forge Map with the Steel Legion 1.5 at the HARD setting, and Soul Forge seems to favor the enemy AI in most of the games that I play. As Arkhan implied, the person who created Soul Forge is a genius, and the map really does give the AI a good showing.

For me, Soul Forge is one of the hardest maps to get a win on at the HARD setting 3vs3 with a human in the mix. In fact, I didn't play all that well, but at least I had production and troops and didn't get overrun like I always do while playing as the 1.75 AI Mod Eldar or the Steel Legion 1.5 Eldar. I can take and hold ground with the Steel Legion at the HARD setting, unlike the Eldar.

Yes, with the Steel Legion I also lost a couple games on Soul Forge before I figured out a strategy that worked, so the Steel Legion are NOT overpowered either at the HARD setting. It's much the same as my previous 1.75 AI Mod IG HARD setting victory on Soul Forge. I lose some before I figure out a strategy that wins.

The Steel Legion is a winning mod. I think the Steel Legion is just right, from what I have seen so far.

I don't know if the Game Clock is working right with the Steel Legion Mod, but if it is, that's actually one of the fastest victories I have ever had with Soul Forge, though it didn't feel like a fast game in any respect. Of course, I lost three times in a row before getting the victory, so maybe that's what made this game feel like a long game.

Three losses in a row with the Steel Legion before getting a victory -- it's a lot better than losing as the 1.75 AI Mod Eldar at the HARD setting dozens of times in a row over two months without a single victory.

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Edited by ThetaOrion, 15 April 2006 - 08:04 AM.


#3 LarkinVB

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Posted 15 April 2006 - 08:40 AM

Eldar is same in WA and Steel legion mod. AI is the same too. Only difference is an additional race.

How long will it take for you to get the clue that the AI is completely unrelated to balance ? There are no artificial nerf/buffs. It just does what is possible. Some races suffer more as they are not shooty (harder to handle for AI) or some of their race traits can't be used (IG/eldar).

#4 Guest_Guest_*

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Posted 16 April 2006 - 04:55 PM

Certain maps favour certain races: Mortalis favours races that are good in Close combat. Eldar will loose here most of the time. I tried it myself. I used 3 Eldar (one of them was me) versus 3 Chaos on HARD, once in the SL mod and once in the AI mod. The result was the same: Eldar lost big time.

I once thought that the AI mod was the reason behind certain defeats, too (back in one of the early AI mod versions). But luckily LarkinVB had some patience left and showed me that my assumption was wrong. :)

There are some things that affect the outcome of a Skirmish besides the AI:

-The map layout
(small maps favour CC, so Orks and Chaos will be better)
(large maps favour SM and Eldar, they are very mobile And Eldar can build webgates everywhere)
(maps with chokepoints favour ranged units, e.g. IG)

-balance problems of the official units
(Eldar FP, SM AT etc.)

But as i told LarkinVB back then: There will be more complaints about imbalances WITH the AI mod than without it, simply because one finally sees the truth.

Without a working AI you will NEVER see any imbalances.

It's like having a new car without a key. Without the key you will never know if it is a good car or a "lemon".
With the key you WILL know. And then maybe you will complain :lol:




and yes, i know that there are ways to start a car without keys :lol:

#5 Excedrin

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Posted 17 April 2006 - 11:14 PM

Certain maps favour certain races: Mortalis favours races that are good in Close combat. Eldar will loose here most of the time. I tried it myself. I used 3 Eldar (one of them was me) versus 3 Chaos on HARD, once in the SL mod and once in the AI mod. The result was the same: Eldar lost big time.

The most important factor is still skill.

-The map layout
(small maps favour CC, so Orks and Chaos will be better)
(large maps favour SM and Eldar, they are very mobile And Eldar can build webgates everywhere)
(maps with chokepoints favour ranged units, e.g. IG)

This is absurd. It's true that large maps give an advantage to Eldar, but it has nothing to do with CC vs Ranged.

Without a working AI you will NEVER see any imbalances.

With the exception of things like Prism spam and mass ATs, the AI doesn't make imbalances apparent.

There's two kinds of imbalance, internal imbalance and external imbalance. Internal means that for a specific situation, between a pair of strategies, a particular race always wins with one over another (WA example, making reapers instead of rangers, or deciding to make ASM instead of tactical marines). External imbalance is between two races, for example an IG player who uses the commissar rush vs SM.

The AI doesn't play well enough to expose early game external imbalances.



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