196 replies to this topic

[MSpencer]

Ok, children, we're going to try something new.
STOP YELLING AT EACH OTHER!
In case you didn't realize it, generally, stupid arguments have impeded progress. There is no room for egos here, there is no room for personality, there is no room for impudence, there is no room for pointless argument. I agree that Revora has declined as of late, with so many arguments. I'm personally against guest posting, but I'm not making a new site. If we all want to fix Revora, we're going to have to work together, all of us, instead of acting like children and running away to a new site, or yelling at people and calling them traitors. You all need to get over your own egos and start working together, that goes for each and every single one of you active in this discussion. Your behavior is that of babbling peasants, not network leaders and staff members of one of the largest and most produtive creative communities on the internet. If you're all going to keep acting like 2nd graders, yes, Revora will die, and if you don't all grow up soon, you're going to see that people are going to be tired of this dramatical crap.

Edited by MSpencer, 03 May 2006 - 01:54 AM.

[Jsmooth13]

So why don't you start by taking your own advice?

[Mastermind]

There are more benefits according to YOU maybe. But why does that little bunch of 5 people get to ignore/overrule everyone else? I want to be seen as an equal here, not as someone who has to drag himself through the mud in an attempt to show that a problem actually needs solving, only to have it dismissed without proper reasoning whatsover!

I dunno, maybe because those 5 people are the ones that pay for things and keep them running. That might have something to do with it. And we've seen that guest posting has a large number of positives, and a lot of people will join after posting as a guest a few times. Heck, one of our administrators (ched) started as a guest poster!

I wasn't talking about feedbacl. People post this kind of stuff usually in open topic / backstage.

It's like the Death mercenary issue. You guys don't have any right to control other users' online activities yet hostile said he'd punish us if we kept it up at their forums. Now, I know that I seemed to support him, but I didn't. He told me to tell everyone else to stop. I guess he thought that people would have more respect for someone lower in rank. Why? Because I'm not some power hungry fool who wants to control everything.

We don't want Revora seen as a place that will spam up any forum that causes any trouble. As such we will punish members who feel that they need to pursue vigilante justice. As for the rest of your comment, I'm going to be kind and not say anything.

Damn, It reminds me of the Penisland issue. There was nothing wrong with it and certain upper level staff decided to jump down Koma's throat. It happens time and time again that we don't have any say in anything that happens here. Without us, revora would be nothing and I'll be damned if our suggestions and requests and complaints get ignored.

Mistakes happen.

[Jsmooth13]

No. You don't have to play the peace maker here. Tell me what you think.

I don't understand how other members' activities online have anything to do with Revora. You should but out of our lives.

Mistakes may happen but the definition of Idiot is one who doesn't learn from his mistakes. This is definetly not the only example of upper level interferance of something so small.

Oh, and according to you MM, I do believe you said that not all of the NL pay for the forum. I also remember you mentioning a specific Blaat who pays but for some reason agress with Immo.

[Mastermind]

No. You don't have to play the peace maker here. Tell me what you think.

I don't understand how other members' activities online have anything to do with Revora. You should but out of our lives.

Mistakes may happen but the definition of Idiot is one who doesn't learn from his mistakes. This is definetly not the only example of upper level interferance of something so small.

Oh, and according to you MM, I do believe you said that not all of the NL pay for the forum. I also remember you mentioning a specific Blaat who pays but for some reason agress with Immo.

You come from Revora, talk about how you're going to do things at Revora, and all of that. We don't condone spamming up other forums. I never agreed with allowing it in the first place. And the main people jumping on Koma are the ones starting the Forge Forums. You'll note that I said pay for or keep running. The leaders are people who have been chosen (by the original leaders going back to the days before the merger) to run things. Initially they were just administrators, and as things have grown we've added new levels to give more people power over things and to allow some delegation.

[MSpencer]

Maybe you should understand that there are underlying issues which you're not privy to. Perhaps you should realize that you're acting like a small child clinging on to every detail which might be exposed in casual conversation without realizing the underlying causes and effects. I'm not taking sides. You're clearly taking sides, and you're telling me not to yell at anyone and not to be insulting? Please, you're picking a fight with people.

EDIT: Not you MM, El Capitan was the intended target. I was too slow

Edited by MSpencer, 03 May 2006 - 02:08 AM.

[Fighting Phantom]

All of this is so off-topic. This thing is filled with nothing but petty arguments and spam . Someone should lock this topic. Does anyone here remember why we are in this thread?

[Jsmooth13]

So let me get this right MM, you have to give me permission to post on another forum?

I know that about Koma, however Immo has let it go. I know there are things that I "wouldn't understand" but doesn't that jsut go to show that you isolate decisions amongst yourselves?

Now, I know I've only been on Revora for a little while, but I've been around long enough to see what Immo is talking about. The problem I have is that no one can ever to shit if we think you did anything wrong. Us members want to have our voices heard and actually listened to. How about making decisions a little mroe public so that the little guys can have their say.

I'll relate it to exporting jobs out of a company. The little people who work for the company lose out and get screwed while the head honchos get more money. The little people complain but then the big guys say "We have more stock and can do what we please." It doesn't make it right does it?

@MSpencer

I never said that I wasn't taking sides, and I never said I was picking fights. I acknowledge all that. But do you think NCOs go to boot camp and get treated nice? NO. If you want to have change you have to be forceful so that people take you seriously. Duh! Why do you think all revolutions in history have involved force?

Edited by El Capitan, 03 May 2006 - 02:17 AM.

[Hostile]

I wasn't talking about feedbacl. People post this kind of stuff usually in open topic / backstage.

It's like the Death mercenary issue. You guys don't have any right to control other users' online activities yet hostile said he'd punish us if we kept it up at their forums. Now, I know that I seemed to support him, but I didn't. He told me to tell everyone else to stop. I guess he thought that people would have more respect for someone lower in rank. Why? Because I'm not some power hungry fool who wants to control everything.

I also told you there was no way I could punish anyone, it was more a message to them that we wanted to stop the crap. And also I was busy working on things.

I also asked the same thing from Immo. I can't make anyone do anything. I can only strongly suggest. My punishment is a paper tiger.

And who cares if some top people make a new forum. I support it fully. We have Freedom Studios, we have RenClips, forums I enjoy. Another one successful would be great. I don't see any reason to pout, I see a reason to support them.

But yelling at each other this way is silly. It's just the internet people. Despite the time and effort we ALL put it. Is it really worth splitting Revora down the middle? To prove who is right? We are here to mod video games, talk computers, and art.

Not form dynasties and empires. The NL's just want to keep things running smoothly not form a commie government or a democracy. Because it's not real life people it's the fucking internet. This is a not a government, it's a forum. Nothing more nothing less.

As a participant, you are not a civilian, you are a user, some with more abilities and privvies than others. But that is all though. If you do not like working with Revora than gracefully leave, should have never accepted the position in the first place if you ALREADY knew how it works.

Now what is more important? Fighting or enjoying our gaming/creative hobbies? That's the question you have to ask yourself...

[Mastermind]

MSpencer, you've always been a dousche and always will be. I don't give a damn what you say.

A wonderful way to make your argument and break the forum rules. But it's minor enough it's not that big a deal. And I think it's spelled douche.

So let me get this right MM, you have to give me permission to post on another forum?

Did I ever say that? I just mean that if we ask you to stop doing something, especially when that something reflects poorly on Revora we can take action.

Now, I know I've only been on Revora for a little while, but I've been around long enough to see what Immo is talking about. The problem I have is that no one can ever to shit if we think you did anything wrong. Us members want to have our voices heard and actually listened to. How about making decisions a little mroe public so that the little guys can have their say.

I'm sorry, but you lost me in there. Could you rephrase that in a way that makes sense?

I'll relate it to exporting jobs out of a company. The little people who work for the company lose out and get screwed while the head honchos get more money. The little people complain but then the big guys say "We have more stock and can do what we please." It doesn't make it right does it?

It might not be right, but that's the way the world works. I do a lot of work on Revora and for it. I think that I've earned a leadership position, and my actions are guided by principles that have always held at Revora. We encourage openness and discussion. Guest posting is one part of that, and a vague set of rules that are enforced sparingly is another.

[Jsmooth13]

I never said you didn't deserve a leadership position, I said that other members deserve a say. I'm not demanding that everyone get acess to the AP. I'm saying that everyone should be able to have a say in issues.

So if that's how the world works and this isn't the world (real life) then why must the real world affect how we work?

Edited by El Capitan, 03 May 2006 - 02:33 AM.

[MSpencer]

@MSpencer

I never said that I wasn't taking sides, and I never said I was picking fights. I acknowledge all that. But do you think NCOs go to boot camp and get treated nice? NO. If you want to have change you have to be forceful so that people take you seriously. Duh! Why do you think all revolutions in history have involved force?

Excuse me? A douche? First I'll start with that one, I am not the action of manual cleansing of the vagina using any sanitary fluid, nor do I have anything to do with the practice.
Furthermore, of course people who undergo NCO training are not treated nicely. Obviously, if you're too nice to someone, they might lose a bit of their edge, fuck up, and get people killed. But that does not mean you need to be forceful to cause change. The English Revolution was totally bloodless, numerous reform movements in Eastern Europe have caused no deaths, and the reforms of modern European nations most notably Scandinavia have not caused any deaths.
So you're full of crap.

And we tried that say thing before you were here. It was called the Senate, and it was ineffective. We've all been here for years more than you. You hardly know everything about the history of Revora, or about running a network.

Edited by MSpencer, 03 May 2006 - 02:31 AM.

[Mastermind]

I never said you didn't deserve a leadership position, I said that other members deserve a say. I'm not demanding that everyone get acess to the AP. I'm saying that everyone should be able to have a say in issues.

So if that's how the world works and this isn't the world (real life) then why must the real world affect how we work?

You have a say. You see me here reading your posts and responding. If you read other topics you'll see me respond and explain why I disagree. My main reason for feeling that guest posting is a positive thing is the large numbers of guests who actually use it constructively. It's generally in project forums and such, so slightly off the beaten path, but I still see very much an overall positive to it. Of course there are negatives, mainly the guest advertisement spam, but eventually I'm going to attempt to create or install an IPB mod to take care of that, or at least reduce it. If a project has a problem with it, they just need to ask and it can be removed from their forums.

[Jsmooth13]

1) It doesn't take years to realize when the milk is spoiled.
2) I know plenty about running things thank you. and I know when things should be a collective constentive.

I don't care about guest posting.

Just because you are responding doesn't mean I have a say because since you are higher up then me and since I disagree with you you'll take your way.

[Mastermind]

If you have a good enough reason for your way we'll go with it. I don't just discard any ideas that aren't mine as not good enough. If a suggestion has merit, is an improvement on the status quo, and is reasonable to implement, it's fine by me. I guess it also has to not go against the few core beliefs I have about how things should be done, but there aren't a terribly large number of those.

[Jsmooth13]

But those ones to prohibit collective decision?

[Mastermind]

No, I don't have anything against a collective consensus. I do have something against straight majority rule by admins and staff. The network leaders have put in a lot of effort to create what you see today, and we don't want to be railroaded out of it by admins and staff just because there are more of them.

Think of it like the president's cabinet. They can all make their suggestions, but the President is ultimately responsible for enacting them and takes all of the credit and the blame. In this case the cabinet are the administrators and staff (who have some power over their areas of expertise) but the ultimate power is in the leaders who oversee everything.

[Jsmooth13]

I'm not tlaking about admins and staff. They're still higher level members.

I'm talking about us down here in member and project team. So what if I am project team? I, at least, remember my roots and am willing to fight for the commoners. Either way, I think this thing was just a stunt or a way for us to vent the stress that we have accumilated. I've got my use of it so thank you for keeping it open long enough for me to get it all out.

[Mastermind]

There are forums for feedback and suggestions. Topics in there get replies. Like I said, if an idea is sound, it doesn't matter where it comes from. The problem is that there are over 200 project team members, and around 800 normal members. That's a lot of people to try to get to discuss a topic, and a lot of them aren't terribly active either way. So things have to be concentrated somewhere, and that's what the leaders, admins, and staff are for.

[Jsmooth13]

I'm not defending those who post once every seven years. I'm talking abiut us who are active in Revora because we like it. There's only like 100 or so of us who are active consistintly. Anyway, I'm done with this discussion. Feel free to reply and lock. If you need me, I'm on msn.