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Will the real Mr. Chavez please stand up, please stand up.


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#1 Hostile

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Posted 31 May 2006 - 01:11 AM

If this guy was playing Circum Central RPG, he'd win. His level of manipulation needs to be written down and taught in school. Almost a comic book style leader. He uses the forces at his disposal with efficiency.

People like this define the reason why I post articles here. I praise him and cut him all in the same breath. I praise him because he thinks of ways of manipulation that I would not have thought of. This guy is GOOD in that area.

But we also see his free education programs and such. Free oil to the poor abroad. People should love him. Except one thing. This is a disguise for something larger. He is increasing his military 30%. But I already know that you can simply say something and it's up to the other player (nation) to dispute.

It's propaganda in a really great form. He simply states things, true or not, and it keeps the US on the run. While he builds up his military forces based off the same oil profits that he blames for corruption in the US.

You know I'm gonna say it...

The irony is absolutely staggering....

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#2 Jeeves

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Posted 31 May 2006 - 04:34 AM

Venesuala has a couple of helicopters?!? Sounds like a good reason for the US to increase their millitary buget by 30%... :D
Then Australia, just to follow suit... :p

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#3 wilmet

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Posted 31 May 2006 - 07:07 AM

I read elsewhere more interestingly, that his aid programs were often quite cosmetic and just good for media attention. He has these discounted food markets to help the poorest neighbourhoods but often supplies arrive late and with less stuff than promised, that kind of thing...

I dunno, I guess he is a bit of annoying, but no worse than most other politicians, he's just pleasing the anti-US crowd of latin america, but he's also making enemies at home.
We'll see what the future holds for mr chavez.
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#4 Comrade Kal

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Posted 31 May 2006 - 08:48 AM

Late food is better than no food at all.

The reason he's increasing his military is probably because America is going on about how he is a dictator.

He does far more for the poor than America have ever done.

How much of a tosser do you have to be to say "well, yes, he may be increasing equalit and ending poverty and bringing them free education and healthcare, but, um, it's just a ruse, cause you know he's bought a few AK-47s... which haven't been used...

And criticising him for being 'populist' like it's a bad thing. Leaders should be HATED by the people! Of course!

Chavez buys a couple of helicopters and a few AK-47s. Pretty much all the rest of the money went to public spending. Also, he pledged only to use them in defence. And there is Bush going about saying he's a dictator and recently going on about socialism and communism. Bush, on the other hand, has cut public spending and spent FAR more on the military and has invaded other countries.

You're the hypocrite, Hostile. It's clear that you've detected a socialist and want to attack him but can't work out how to.

Edited by Comrade Kal, 31 May 2006 - 08:51 AM.

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#5 Tom

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Posted 31 May 2006 - 10:05 AM

Its a politician, what do you expect? "Normal" friendly people or powergrabbing fascist meglomaniacs?

#6 Comrade Kal

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Posted 31 May 2006 - 11:04 AM

Who cares how many weapons he has if he's only using them for defence?

I fail to see how the man is a fascist.
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#7 MSpencer

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Posted 31 May 2006 - 11:33 AM

Hitler always said he was defending himself against the territorial ambitions of France and England.
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#8 Ash

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Posted 31 May 2006 - 01:27 PM

I don't see a report of Chavez killing Jews. Or invading his neighbours. Or wanting Lebensraum.


If tensions are growing and the USA is urging other countries to not make these arms deals, it's quite clear that the USA is paranoid.


Let's look at the USA's defence budget for a minute, shall we?

$465.0 billion
(Source)

Whopee fuckin' do. Venezuela's building a bit of an army. Is it not their right as a nation to defend itself?

If Chavez suddenly goes attacking his neighbours, by all means, stop him. But I don't see any fucker out there complaining about the USA's four hundred and sixty-five BILLION dollar military expenditure. Venezuela's is a mere two billion. That's less than the stamp duty tax alone collected in the last quarter by the UK government. Sorry, but this is not as big a deal as Hostile makes it out to be, save for, as Kal says, his dislike for all things socialist.

#9 Comrade Kal

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Posted 31 May 2006 - 01:30 PM

If Chavez starts invading people i'll denounce him, of course. But he's using it for defence.
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#10 Ash

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Posted 31 May 2006 - 01:31 PM

Exactly. I wouldn't support an imperialistic aggressive nation, despite my entry on the Circum-Centro War. I do, however, support and agree with any nation's right to defend itself against a foreign aggressor.

#11 Jeeves

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Posted 31 May 2006 - 02:50 PM

How about against a foreign liberator? :p
Had to say it :D
And how in the Hell US does one jump from "more popular than a french kiss at a family reunion" to "fascist dictatorship"?!

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#12 duke_Qa

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Posted 01 June 2006 - 05:13 PM

its not like they are going to invade the states with those ak's. although it would be interesting to see them try ;)

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#13 Blodo

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Posted 01 June 2006 - 05:38 PM

It's actually interesting, this global paranoia that is going on currently. Any country that is not a first world country, and starts arming itself - obviously it is buying ak's to invade it's neighbour or *gasp* to terrorise the US ;)

I think it's rather obvious USA is trying to depose him, just like they always were trying to depose Castro. The guy wants to have some security so that he can at least try to prevent yet another country being overthrown by the US army then left to rot with a criminal in charge.

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#14 Hostile

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Posted 01 June 2006 - 11:47 PM

Now that you all replied, I'll clarify. It isn't so much the military build up, or whether he follows through with his promise of a socialist paradise. It is powerful use of proganda statements.

For example, after the failed coup he blamed the US for it. While no other nation besides his cooherts did. Whether it's true or not, just by stating it, it leaves one open for speculation.

Another example. He uses the reason of an American invasion as a reason to increase his military. What invasion? I''ve never heard of any US planned invasion! The US does talk it's own propaganda shit before it moves on someone. Yet there is none...

He could have just said we're increasing military spending to modernize our forces, or like China, they just do it and say nothing. But he CHOOSES to use the idea of a fictional US invasion to insite "speculation" where there was none.

I really don't care if he's socialist, I don't care if he hates the US. What I find the most fascinating about him is his very precise wording of events in his country.

Always somehow connecting the dots back to some fault or aggression of the US. The US is doing the best media return fire of it can, a simple and blantant ignoring of any of his statements. Like his free offer of heating oil for the US and Europes poor when everyone knows darn well they would not except it. But he plays a good game...

Now the US is of course is skilled in propaganda and uses it to speed up the process of conflict when it wants to. All countries do. He's also doing the same. Stating things that are speculation as though they are fact.

Sometimes just making shit up along the way! This is the part of the individual that interests me. Not his ideology but how he is feeding off of anti US sentiment to place himself of the world stage.

Does the avergae person know who is El Presidente de Argentina? Chances are not off the top of thier head. But you know who Chavez is. Because he's creating a persona for himself.

Nothing wrong with it, he's completely a paper dragon. But you have to appreciate the meglo-maniac inside the man. A socialist country could just implement it's social programs, instead he blasted about them and magnifies thier success.

I'm not cutting him down. I'm amazed by his cleverness. As long as he doesn't try to start a war, he can talk all he wants.

He's just an interesting character, that's the only point of the article really.

The reason he's increasing his military is probably because America is going on about how he is a dictator.

I cannot find an offical US statement that says this though. Granted I only looked so long. But because he stated it you quoted it. That is the fun of propaganda.

Not unlike when someone starts a rumor in school and next thing you know everyone is talking about it as fact. Awww the power of words...

http://www.thirdworl...ion_Chavez.html

This tells alot of US media that is hostile, yet no true official statement from the US. I guess the US make use these tools as well. But alot of these media tools are actually not friendly to Bush, while some obviously are.

#15 Comrade Kal

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Posted 02 June 2006 - 12:15 AM

Now that you all replied, I'll clarify. It isn't so much the military build up, or whether he follows through with his promise of a socialist paradise. It is powerful use of proganda statements.

For example, after the failed coup he blamed the US for it. While no other nation besides his cooherts did. Whether it's true or not, just by stating it, it leaves one open for speculation.


There's no doubt that the US would support any coup against him. I think it's a safe assumption.

Another example. He uses the reason of an American invasion as a reason to increase his military. What invasion? I''ve never heard of any US planned invasion! The US does talk it's own propaganda shit before it moves on someone. Yet there is none...

He could have just said we're increasing military spending to modernize our forces, or like China, they just do it and say nothing. But he CHOOSES to use the idea of a fictional US invasion to insite "speculation" where there was none.


The US is speaking about him in exactly the same way they spoke about Saddam. I'd be worried.

I really don't care if he's socialist, I don't care if he hates the US. What I find the most fascinating about him is his very precise wording of events in his country.

Always somehow connecting the dots back to some fault or aggression of the US. The US is doing the best media return fire of it can, a simple and blantant ignoring of any of his statements. Like his free offer of heating oil for the US and Europes poor when everyone knows darn well they would not except it. But he plays a good game...


They did accept it. So your entire argument is void.

Now the US is of course is skilled in propaganda and uses it to speed up the process of conflict when it wants to. All countries do. He's also doing the same. Stating things that are speculation as though they are fact.

Sometimes just making shit up along the way! This is the part of the individual that interests me. Not his ideology but how he is feeding off of anti US sentiment to place himself of the world stage.


No, it's called the people not liking America so they vote in an anti-american president. That's how your much chirped-on-about democracy works.

Does the avergae person know who is El Presidente de Argentina? Chances are not off the top of thier head. But you know who Chavez is. Because he's creating a persona for himself.

Nestor Kirchner. You have my word I did not look that up. Some of us know there's an outside world.

Nothing wrong with it, he's completely a paper dragon. But you have to appreciate the meglo-maniac inside the man. A socialist country could just implement it's social programs, instead he blasted about them and magnifies thier success.

Well they are successful. Most socialists would like to see them replicated in other countries because they tend to be internationalists. You'll notice Chavez doesn't go for the whole patriotism thing, rather he goes for ideology.

I'm not cutting him down. I'm amazed by his cleverness. As long as he doesn't try to start a war, he can talk all he wants.

Our point entirely. Shut up about him then.

He's just an interesting character, that's the only point of the article really.

Course it was.





The reason he's increasing his military is probably because America is going on about how he is a dictator.

I cannot find an offical US statement that says this though. Granted I only looked so long. But because he stated it you quoted it. That is the fun of propaganda.


http://news.bbc.co.u...cas/4723902.stm


http://www.thirdworl...ion_Chavez.html

This tells alot of US media that is hostile, yet no true official statement from the US. I guess the US make use these tools as well. But alot of these media tools are actually not friendly to Bush, while some obviously are.

People like Pat Robertson, who has the ear of many religious rightists are.
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#16 Hostile

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Posted 02 June 2006 - 12:30 AM

I really don't care if he's socialist, I don't care if he hates the US. What I find the most fascinating about him is his very precise wording of events in his country.

Always somehow connecting the dots back to some fault or aggression of the US. The US is doing the best media return fire of it can, a simple and blantant ignoring of any of his statements. Like his free offer of heating oil for the US and Europes poor when everyone knows darn well they would not except it. But he plays a good game...



They did accept it. So your entire argument is void.


I could only find sources that said they wouldn't.

I'm not cutting him down. I'm amazed by his cleverness. As long as he doesn't try to start a war, he can talk all he wants.


Our point entirely. Shut up about him then.

Actually I can talk abut him if I choose in my forum section. This is not the kinda place we simply tell each other to shut up. That woul be the HOP, do not confuse the two.

I cannot find an offical US statement that says this though. Granted I only looked so long. But because he stated it you quoted it. That is the fun of propaganda.


http://news.bbc.co.u...cas/4723902.stm

That was the kinda link I could not find but I only spent a few minutes looking for something like this.

This tells alot of US media that is hostile, yet no true official statement from the US. I guess the US make use these tools as well. But alot of these media tools are actually not friendly to Bush, while some obviously are.


People like Pat Robertson, who has the ear of many religious rightists are.

The antipathy I have for this individual is worthy of it's own article. Yes there is that segment of the US society that gets me. BUT we have to take the good and the bad represented here. Like the US Nazi party, and The US communist party.

What can you do, by law they can speak thier mind....

#17 Tom

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Posted 06 June 2006 - 08:20 PM

Wow this spawned out of Chavez. Chavez = politician. Politician = puppet of elite rich men who do what they are told when they are told to do it. Same with any country. Same with GWBush, some with Blair, some with the president of Iran. Manipulating the world ready for the new world order. I no longer feel the purpose of wasting words over such puppets.

Chavez says America is corrupt, Bush says Chavez is dangerous, tit for tat, divide and rule, again you have the people dupped by fake enemies and fake allies.

#18 Comrade Kal

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Posted 06 June 2006 - 08:25 PM

He's not much of a revolutionary and that view, when taken as a law, is even more narrowminded than the capitalists that oppose it.

He's infinitely preferable to george bush and he does a lot lot more for the people. That's my only point. What you said is a whole different argument.
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#19 Athgar

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Posted 13 June 2006 - 10:45 AM

Humans werent made for gathering in millions, and being led by "politicians", so called voice of the people. It only gives problems, and starts wars for no reason.

Why are all Americans so much against Communism, anyway? Its a lovely idea, even if its unrealistic. Capitalism is as bad as Communism, everything is controlled by mega corporations..
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