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AI Difficulties - need your opinions.


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Poll: How should Contra.04 AI change?

The EASY AI must become:

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The NORMAL AI must become:

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The HARD AI must become:

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#21 Pendaelose

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Posted 29 June 2006 - 05:42 PM

if they have access to all that will they use all the promos at once or not, also the normal ZH hards are harder then ur ones ( no offence)

i think lets them ave all those cheats except stuff like less sw timers and faster build times that will take da mik abit.....




What version are you refering to? If your playing the WIP copies are playing against Robot USA?
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Between now and the next polished release there should be very little new art work done. Instead the focus is on designing, testing, and fixing. the mod has always been so close to finished that its nearly criminal. I'd love to see this through to the end with a real community effort.


#22 Calamity_Jones

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Posted 29 June 2006 - 05:49 PM

everyone is so going to vote insane for the hard AI :lol:
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#23 alpha86

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Posted 29 June 2006 - 10:59 PM

That's because thats where the challenge lies, and as far as I know, most like the challenge :lol:

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#24 Phoenix911

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Posted 30 June 2006 - 01:47 AM

challlange = fun.
I'm all for having a really kick ass hard ai, But at the same time i also think all AI setting should be beatable. And so far all the thngs pend has said he will do to make the hard AI hard kinda make me think they will be too hard.

It says "(1 AI beats 2 or more players)" it beats 2 players fair enough 3 maybe but 4? i don't think that should be possable.
The way pend has depicted his insain AI IMO sound like not even 6 players could beat it. All his gen powers and super weapons charge times incressed to near crap your pants speed, his money and infinate (thats not a problem)
His build speed (crap self again) and so on....

basicly by the time any of the players get to tech level 2 they probley be dead or on there last knee's even with all there buddies helping.

I am intreaged(sp) and can ot wait to try the Ai, but i am skeptical as to how meny player will actuly player the insain setting more than once, and if the insain setting is even POSSABLE.
the second diffcualty actuly sounds like it will be more than a challange for some players, and sounds to me like most will play that more than the insain.
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#25 alpha86

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Posted 30 June 2006 - 04:58 AM

Basically, although it says 1vs2 I reckon with extreme skill and the right play, its dead possible it kick the AI. It takes learning to know the ins and outs of the generals... also its a new style of play for remix 3 compared to contra 4. What would usually work in contra 4 rarely works with remix due to the agressiveness of the AI.

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#26 Phoenix911

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Posted 30 June 2006 - 10:33 AM

Basically, although it says 1vs2 I reckon with extreme skill and the right play, its dead possible it kick the AI. It takes learning to know the ins and outs of the generals... also its a new style of play for remix 3 compared to contra 4. What would usually work in contra 4 rarely works with remix due to the agressiveness of the AI.

I agree with this, as i have said in other post before humn can learn and adapt(sp?) Computer can't (not yet anyways :lol: lol)
But ask yourself this how meny player will use it more than once?
most player that play Ai is playing ai cos none of the friends are online or because they don't have the internet very often or a slow speed. Most humans when online will play Human vs human.
I think it maybe possable to beat the insain, BUT how meny players have the skill level or the ablity to adapt to the situaltion? There has meny posts in the forums asking to have the ai already made easyer as these players lack the skills or the abilty to adapt fast enough.

Ask yourself this do u consider yourself a ok, good or super player in generals? Be honest, I rank myself as being on the borader of good and super. But not higher not lower. My point is i not a crap player when i want to be other times i can be crap.
Now then can u honestly say that u and whoever u play with will have teh skill to beat such a CHEATING computer?
Take into consideration all the stuff pend plans to do to make him hard IE: infant money faster reload times on SW and generals power (alot faster) Faster rank times and faster build times, near enough a constent wave of enemys coming at you.
And now add player skill level into the mix, Bearing in mind that u maybe a good player but i amd sure your not the greatest player ever, infact i sure everyone in this forum would rank them selfs like i did. Some maybe lower, and now after u think about that i would say do u think the insain AI is Beatable and how often do u think it will be play'd?


o and btw if anyone thinks ther are the great6est or a super player then u are probley not as u are far to big headed and such will be your downfall, a baby has to learn to crawl before they can walk, just remember u maybe good but your always learning.
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#27 alpha86

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Posted 30 June 2006 - 10:47 AM

Basically, although it says 1vs2 I reckon with extreme skill and the right play, its dead possible it kick the AI. It takes learning to know the ins and outs of the generals... also its a new style of play for remix 3 compared to contra 4. What would usually work in contra 4 rarely works with remix due to the agressiveness of the AI.

I agree with this, as i have said in other post before humn can learn and adapt(sp?) Computer can't (not yet anyways :lol: lol)
But ask yourself this how meny player will use it more than once?
most player that play Ai is playing ai cos none of the friends are online or because they don't have the internet very often or a slow speed. Most humans when online will play Human vs human.
I think it maybe possable to beat the insain, BUT how meny players have the skill level or the ablity to adapt to the situaltion? There has meny posts in the forums asking to have the ai already made easyer as these players lack the skills or the abilty to adapt fast enough.

Thanks. True people don't play online because of connections and stuff, as to players having the skill, well it depends on their ability to learn. I for one, take several games to learn things. Like the game where I fianlly beat the Robot Hard AI. Usually I never build a war factory, but now, its a tech requirement to get the tech centre... before it used to be war factory or airfield... and me loving planes and all always took the airfield. Its true there are many players who can't adapt fast enough, and they ask for help. That's all part of the learning and adapting.

Ask yourself this do u consider yourself a ok, good or super player in generals? Be honest, I rank myself as being on the borader of good and super. But not higher not lower. My point is i not a crap player when i want to be other times i can be crap.
Now then can u honestly say that u and whoever u play with will have teh skill to beat such a CHEATING computer?
Take into consideration all the stuff pend plans to do to make him hard IE: infant money faster reload times on SW and generals power (alot faster) Faster rank times and faster build times, near enough a constent wave of enemys coming at you.
And now add player skill level into the mix, Bearing in mind that u maybe a good player but i amd sure your not the greatest player ever, infact i sure everyone in this forum would rank them selfs like i did. Some maybe lower, and now after u think about that i would say do u think the insain AI is Beatable and how often do u think it will be play'd?

I consider myself a reasonable player. I'm certainly not what I thought I was after the first time I played against the Hard AI of remix. As to playing with other humans, well most people I would usually play with do have reasonable skill. Even considering the fact they they prefer something like TS over Generals. As to beating the cheating AI, well maybe and being beatable, I stick with my answer - yes. I don't know about how often it would be played, but I always take hard. Once you learn how to beat hard, then everything falls into place.

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#28 Pendaelose

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Posted 30 June 2006 - 04:11 PM

But ask yourself this how meny player will use it more than once?


Right now it looks like my most populare setting... people seam to love the challenge.

I wasn't able to get everything I wanted working for the Insane AI. the build speeds and reload times are all set in stone. But it is still easily a 2vs1 AI for most players. Its good and hard, and I like it. I think you'll like it too. It will crush you a few times... maby 20. But you'll eventualy beet it one time and feal just increadible for a while.
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Between now and the next polished release there should be very little new art work done. Instead the focus is on designing, testing, and fixing. the mod has always been so close to finished that its nearly criminal. I'd love to see this through to the end with a real community effort.


#29 alpha86

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Posted 02 July 2006 - 10:31 AM

Its a great setting... although in the last couple of days I've been playing the other settings just to see if there are problems. They seem find atm. I like what you've done with the a 1.9 fix. Multiple command centers? Now that is definately new... and certainly adds a challenge...

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Also can something be done about that?

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#30 Guest_Guest_*

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Posted 02 July 2006 - 11:11 AM

i quite like new contra ai especially as planes are used to full effect in it however i feel that the difficulty of the original ai by ea was good and new ai only needs to be there to make surenew units are used. is u want a challenge play against humans or lots of hard opponents but let ai be easy when easy and medium when medium so that people can try new tactics without getting steamrollered and just totally pwn if they fell like being a loser. Pllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllz

#31 alpha86

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Posted 02 July 2006 - 02:04 PM

True, theres no true substituation for human intelligence (or lack of it :) ). But however, for many, that's not possible, so we deal with the next best thing - and intense AI which would usually kick a good players butt :p If your finding it way to hard... turn the game speed down... it usually helps.

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#32 Pendaelose

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Posted 03 July 2006 - 02:26 PM

i quite like new contra ai especially as planes are used to full effect in it however i feel that the difficulty of the original ai by ea was good and new ai only needs to be there to make surenew units are used. is u want a challenge play against humans or lots of hard opponents but let ai be easy when easy and medium when medium so that people can try new tactics without getting steamrollered and just totally pwn if they fell like being a loser. Pllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllz


For many of us, several of the Old hard AIs wasn't hard enough.

Also, if you want to try out new tactics and play around, thats fine, just play against an Easy or Normal. Or give yourself an ally.
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Between now and the next polished release there should be very little new art work done. Instead the focus is on designing, testing, and fixing. the mod has always been so close to finished that its nearly criminal. I'd love to see this through to the end with a real community effort.


#33 Phoenix911

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Posted 03 July 2006 - 03:46 PM

But ask yourself this how meny player will use it more than once?


Right now it looks like my most populare setting... people seam to love the challenge.

I wasn't able to get everything I wanted working for the Insane AI. the build speeds and reload times are all set in stone. But it is still easily a 2vs1 AI for most players. Its good and hard, and I like it. I think you'll like it too. It will crush you a few times... maby 20. But you'll eventualy beet it one time and feal just increadible for a while.

Yes but this is a vote, no one has really tryed it yet. If it going to be as hard as u say it will be then alot of ppl may actuly try once or twice then give up. I really hope the hard ai is hard and challanging yet at same time not goint to be off putting to alot of players like it sounds like it will be imo. Not saying i will be off put by the ai but some might even i might if i find it rediculosly hard.
Hope it all plays out how it should tho.

O and btw alpha not all ppl adapt one of my friend is a moron and wont evne take small tiny advice on how to incress his speed and surviabilty(sp) some ppl are like that and wont change for nothing/no one.
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#34 Pendaelose

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Posted 03 July 2006 - 07:50 PM

But ask yourself this how meny player will use it more than once?


Right now it looks like my most populare setting... people seam to love the challenge.

I wasn't able to get everything I wanted working for the Insane AI. the build speeds and reload times are all set in stone. But it is still easily a 2vs1 AI for most players. Its good and hard, and I like it. I think you'll like it too. It will crush you a few times... maby 20. But you'll eventualy beet it one time and feal just increadible for a while.

Yes but this is a vote, no one has really tryed it yet. If it going to be as hard as u say it will be then alot of ppl may actuly try once or twice then give up. I really hope the hard ai is hard and challanging yet at same time not goint to be off putting to alot of players like it sounds like it will be imo. Not saying i will be off put by the ai but some might even i might if i find it rediculosly hard.
Hope it all plays out how it should tho.


Its been downloaded 20 times and I've got about a half dozen people who have played it and told me how they felt about it. The hard AI is a success.

O and btw alpha not all ppl adapt one of my friend is a moron and wont evne take small tiny advice on how to incress his speed and surviabilty(sp) some ppl are like that and wont change for nothing/no one.


Yes, but even your Moron friend is more adaptive than the most advanced AI on the planet.
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Between now and the next polished release there should be very little new art work done. Instead the focus is on designing, testing, and fixing. the mod has always been so close to finished that its nearly criminal. I'd love to see this through to the end with a real community effort.


#35 alpha86

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Posted 04 July 2006 - 09:03 AM

I didn't say it was hard as such, I said it was challenging, which is much better :huh: As to your friend, Pend is right, humans have a choice to adapt, its their loss if they choose not to. An AI has no choice, so once you've figured it out, its plain bright sailing trip from there on.

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#36 1337Ninja

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Posted 15 July 2006 - 03:32 AM

Easy: A little easier. (No cheating, toned down a bit.)

Normal: A little harder. (No cheating, but do everything legally possible.)

Hard: Insane. (Cheat like you've never cheated before, do any and everything to win.)

I'd welcome the challenge. Contra A.I. is much more fun than vanilla ZH. Though nothing beats a good human player.

And its nice to see another AirForce lover in here.

#37 Guest_Violence (Not Logged)_*

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Posted 04 August 2006 - 11:05 AM

The AI on Hard should definitely;

- Reconstruct their HQs when destroyed, or even proceed to construct spare ones after some time or after they reach a certain money limit.

- Build more Superweapons than a couple, even when not playing as the SW General. Furthermore, consider having the AI use them smartly like waiting for both to get ready for use before launching.

- Build better defenses. Right now there's always two sides easily breachable on the AI's defense pattern.

- Fortify the positions they take supplies from with defenses and units.

- Use the Sneak Attack in a proper way, right now there's a great delay and sometimes they even just leave the tunnel like that.

- Choose their abilities a bit better and actually target something of importance with them. An example is the Howitzer, it never waits to destroy a single target before choosing another when used by the AI so it's a useless thing to them.

- Raid your own supply positions faster. The player is usually able to make the cost for creating 3 supply tracks and the supply center and even more, before the AI decides to raid.

- Pay more attention to capturing oil derricks and such buildings, and even do it faster by sending more troops/vehicles to them, and fortify those positions as well.

- Attack from many sides, not just spam vehicles with the player's defenses as their waypoint. Right now it is possible to spam defenses on a single opening of the map and the computer won't try to go around it 80% of the times, bottlenecking its forces there.

- Defend artillery units better, because right now they come in alone and aircrafts eat them for breakfast before they fire.

- Synchronize artillery/aircraft/tank/infantry and ability/superweapon strikes. Right now it is able to only do these things as separate plans or actions, giving you enough time to recover for the next AI action. Used simultaneously, they could be devastating to the player.

- Aviod area effects. There is nothing more ridiculous than a HUGE AI spam walking straight into your napalm fields for instance. Or if you have the Nuclear General you can have some Nuke Cannons fire at the ground in some range in front of your defenses, and the AI will walk right into the firing field, they never even touch your defense if you do this properly. The AI should target defensive artillery.

- Move explosive/suicide units away from their buildings. There is usually demolition trucks and such very near the AI armies in their base, so when you destroy those they take half the buildings and units off. Very silly.

- It should use infantry as meat shields for turrets, especially against USA sides. And generally it should combine infantry/vehicle spam attacks better.

- Manage air combat better. Sometimes it has Auroras on patrol a mile away from base, alone!! And it sends aircrafts to your defenses without ground forces backups.

- Build secondary bases or even more, and many more power plants than it does. It's very easy to cut the AI's power as it is.

- Build buildings a bit far from each other, because if you are carefull you can destroy far too many buildings and nearby units with 1 ability and 1 super weapon. Also it should build them in random spots each time. Facing the AI I always know where the palace, black markets, supply, barracks, war factory are going to be if I have seen their HQ, without scanning.

- Build more propaganda centers and maybe put some palaces in their defenses(for China and GLA).

- Choose Strategies more random. Right now, 90% of the times it chooses Hold The Line.

- Spam all kinds of vehicles. Half of what is in the mod is not produced by the AI with certain armies.

- Combine defenses and attacks with other AI allies. For instance, if the AI are a Nuclear and a Laser General, each should build extra defenses on their ally's defense pattern to help them.

- Build on random spots on the map, maybe even just outside the players' defenses, not just around supply depots. Again, if you have played enough you can hit their buildings 100% because you know where and what they have built on the map just by experiences.

- Build more inner base defenses, because once you use Abilities + Superweapon on their defense you can take their whole base with a small force.

- Guard their superweapons better from Lotus', Saboteurs, suicide attacks, flank attacks and Sneak Attacks.

- Spam more super units.

Anyway that's what I can think of from my playing experience against many mods' AIs, including Contra. Some might have been noted already, so sorry if I am repeating something already said.

#38 Pendaelose

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Posted 04 August 2006 - 03:07 PM

Alot of that looks like a list that was on the SDI (Script Development Iniative) forums. I'm too lazy to go check and see if its a copy paste. regardless, its holds true... except for one thing... have you ever used the Scripting tools???

a whole lot of those options don't even exsist within the tools. Creativity is not the problem, but rather the painfully dibilitating tools set given by EA. There are far too few AI behavior options and too much of it is hardcoded behaviors.

regardless, its a good list and can serve as an ideal, even if 90% is imposible.
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Between now and the next polished release there should be very little new art work done. Instead the focus is on designing, testing, and fixing. the mod has always been so close to finished that its nearly criminal. I'd love to see this through to the end with a real community effort.


#39 Guest_Violence (Not Logged)_*

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Posted 06 August 2006 - 10:13 AM

Hello again. No, it's not Copy/Pasted from anywhere. Those ideas are just what was on my head the moment I was replying to this thread. Some have been probably mentioned by other people, especially basic stuff like the rebuilding of AI bases and better defense patterns but nothing's really "stolen" from some other forum.


:p

#40 Hiroshi

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Posted 05 September 2006 - 04:54 PM

Alot of that looks like a list that was on the SDI (Script Development Iniative) forums. I'm too lazy to go check and see if its a copy paste. regardless, its holds true... except for one thing... have you ever used the Scripting tools???

a whole lot of those options don't even exsist within the tools. Creativity is not the problem, but rather the painfully dibilitating tools set given by EA. There are far too few AI behavior options and too much of it is hardcoded behaviors.

regardless, its a good list and can serve as an ideal, even if 90% is imposible.


Oh how wonderful it'd be if EA would fix the little bugs in their Engine that crashes C&C every now and then. Me, my brother, and Phoenix kept suffering from crashes throughout our games, and it wasn't caused by anything specific. It was just a lot of bad luck, and the engine crapping out on us.

Mind you at least it's a lot more reliable than a lot of modern games have become. I see countless games being released now where they don't even bother fixing anything, or supply any real support. It seems to be just: Create game, release game, onto the next project. Ugu~

I thoroughly enjoy playing against the new hard AI with Phoenix and Stinger. However I think the human starting cash should be boosted, since the AI can do far more actions at a time than a human is capable of to begin with, on top of everything else that makes it that much harder. I'm not saying to level the playing field or anything, or make things more fair. I'm just suggesting a good starting amount so that the human player isn't stuck waiting for cash before he can build anything. It's not like unlimited money like the AI has.

And if people find it too easy, they can easily choose any of the other cash selections available when starting a new game anyway. Though i'd think even with the cash boost it'd be hard enough. Without the cash boost, it isn't just hard for 2 or more people to beat them, it literally makes it 'almost' impossible. When a computer is building 10 different things at once with unlimited cash, waiting for cash is something a human player simply can't afford to do. o_o;

Though that's just my thought on it.

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