104 replies to this topic

[Pyth]

Yes, indeed. Religion is the main one. (The half-truths and lies.)

[Ash]

You'd make a really bad Christian Ash, you actually explore the context and meaning of the bible rather than play along with some shite some guy in a dodgy bathrobe tells you and practice it word for word rather than allowing for alternatives, such as reality, and dwelling on the positive messages and guidelines it sets.

No, I'd make a bad Christian because I'm cynical and was never baptised. I also don't feel I need the "moral guidance" it professes to give. One does not need to follow a religion in order to have morals, ethics and to lead a good life. This is why I think, if there is a God (which I obviously doubt), He should judge me on what I have done, not on what I haven't done. And if He doesn't, then I have even more reason to renounce His existence, because, frankly, He's a git, and I wouldn't want His eternal company as a result. Simple as.

[AOWR-Theoo Stratiotes]

You don't need to be baptized to be a Christian. Actually, a good many Christians aren't baptized.

And if you read the Bible, you will find that God does judge based on what we have done.

That is why the phrase "Heck-bound jerks" literally applies to the Nazis, because if God judged them based upon what they hadn't done, they'd get off free: they only things left that they hadn't done would be anything kind and decent.

Edit: The reason he'd make a bad Christian is that he doesn't explore the context: Which in this case is the pharisees (pardon the mispelling) were sending Jesus a trick: By Jewish Law, the woman had committed a crime deserving of death. In our world, I don't consider the crime okay, but in every newspaper and the cover of every tabloid, this crime is right there.

The pharisees' trick was that, because Jesus preached forgiveness (prelude to the forgiveness he would give) he shuld let her go. But, by the law of Moses, she needed to be stoned. Hence, "Let he who has no sin cast the first stone."

Now, the pharisees probably tried other tricks like this, but this made it into the Bible. Why?

This story has a point.

Sometimes it can be better to forgive.

That is the context, prtext, and postext of this story.

P.S: Sorry if postext isn't the word I'm looking for.

Edited by AOWR, 03 July 2006 - 04:48 PM.

[Cossack]

I was actually baptized a protestant, but I don't even practice, and neither do my parents.

[Ash]

And if you read the Bible, you will find that God does judge based on what we have done.

Is that so? If so, why is it then that because I am an Atheist that I am a Heathen?

That is why the phrase "Heck-bound jerks" literally applies to the Nazis, because if God judged them based upon what they hadn't done, they'd get off free: they only things left that they hadn't done would be anything kind and decent.

How do you know they've gotten away with it? Spoken with t'old Adolf from Beyond The Grave, have you? I should certainly hope not. I hope to God that there is no Afterlife. I don't want there to be. By virtue of the fact I'm dead, I've lost the will to live. I hope to God that's the end, or else there will be no end to my pain.

Edit: The reason he'd make a bad Christian is that he doesn't explore the context: Which in this case is the pharisees (pardon the mispelling) were sending Jesus a trick: By Jewish Law, the woman had committed a crime deserving of death. In our world, I don't consider the crime okay, but in every newspaper and the cover of every tabloid, this crime is right there.

Excuse me? Personally, I don't consider adultery a crime, except deserving of divorce (who wants the STDs that person has picked up from their other partner. If one is not happy with the person they are with, I would rather they divorce me than lie to me. I'm sure God would understand if He existed.

The pharisees' trick was that, because Jesus preached forgiveness (prelude to the forgiveness he would give) he shuld let her go. But, by the law of Moses, she needed to be stoned. Hence, "Let he who has no sin cast the first stone."

Yes.
I'd still disagree, purely because the atrocities that happen in war are, even for someone as drunk as I am right now, unforgivable.

If God existed, He wouldn't allow men to be torn apart by gunfire, shrapnel and explosives. He wouldn't allow men to stab at half-dead twitching corpses with a bayonet. He wouldn't allow white phosphorus. He wouldn't have sat back and watched while Hiroshima and Nagasaki were blown off the face of the Earth, its inhabitants either vaporised in an instant, or their skin and flesh melted away by searing heat and energy, or their bodies wracked by lethal radiation poisoning upon drinking the Black Rain because the heat dried up all their water. He wouldn't have allowed napalm, or VX nerve agent, or any of the other weapons man does, and has, and will, use in warfare.

God loves His children? I think fucking not.

Now, the pharisees probably tried other tricks like this, but this made it into the Bible. Why?

This story has a point.

Sometimes it can be better to forgive.

That is the context, prtext, and postext of this story.

P.S: Sorry if postext isn't the word I'm looking for.

Pretext is a false pretense for doing something. So I think that is the word you aren't looking for. I don't find what America did in 1945 to be forgivable, anymore than I find what the Germans did for the five years before that to be forgivable, any more than I find what the Americans are doing NOW forgivable. There is NO God, purely because such shit happens in the world. If there WAS a God, he'd do something to stop us being the animals we are. He'd save us from OURSELVES. But no. He'll allow us to destroy ourselves in his name, despite the tenets in every holy book that tell us to love our neighbour, no matter his creed. What a load of bollocks.

Even if there IS a God, he can shove it. He isn't doing his job as a Diety by not delivering us from salvation. He deserves to be renounced. And yet he blames people for renouncing him.

What a dick. No wonder he doesn't exist.

[Soul]

Holy shit that's amazing Ash I never knew you had it in you.

Edited by Forgotten_Soul, 03 July 2006 - 08:39 PM.

[AOWR-Theoo Stratiotes]

Have you ever thought about one thing people say a lot on this site? Free will. God isn't happy about what happens in the world, but he gave us the right to free choice, and he respects that right.

And I find the nukes dropped on Japan to be the lesser of two evils; if we had take the other option and invaded, more Japanese civilians would have died than in the nukes. Add on top of that the soldiers from all the sides, and people would be critcizing us now for not dropping the bombs.

Now, what the Nazis did; that is pure evil. The people can be forgiven, but they still would have to be punished. And so far I can't find it in my heart to forgive them.

As per your comments on getting off free, that is the exact opposite of what I said; I said that God judges based on what we have done; they would have gotten off free if God didn't (and they didn'tt get off free, eternity wise, at least).

And according to the Bible the only ways to heaven are these: Be perfect (no sins whatsoever), thus if you have done anything wrong, well... bye-bye. The other way is through his son, who died and rose again for us. Thus, when God judges you based on what you've done, a single bad (no matter how little of a bad) would condemn you ontop of all the good in the world that you've done.

And who called you a heathen?

Again going back:


Quote from Paradox:
"If God existed, He wouldn't allow men to be torn apart by gunfire, shrapnel and explosives. He wouldn't allow men to stab at half-dead twitching corpses with a bayonet. He wouldn't allow white phosphorus. He wouldn't have sat back and watched while Hiroshima and Nagasaki were blown off the face of the Earth, its inhabitants either vaporised in an instant, or their skin and flesh melted away by searing heat and energy, or their bodies wracked by lethal radiation poisoning upon drinking the Black Rain because the heat dried up all their water. He wouldn't have allowed napalm, or VX nerve agent, or any of the other weapons man does, and has, and will, use in warfare.

God loves His children? I think f***ing not."

God respects our free will. Essentially: He doesn't CAUSE things to happen, but He does ALLOW them to happen.

I asked questions like "Why is this happening" or "Do You even care" while I was watching cancer and kemo destroy my grandfather's health, and then eventually kill him over a slow period of two years.

I asked these questions when I meet people born with deseases that will kill them before they even reach 20.

I asked this question when my youth-leader told me about a girl he knows who has a non-contagious disease that keeps her downstairs in constant pain, unable to go outside because the vitamin-D from the sun makes it worse.

I ask it every time I see the paper saying "child missing".

When the twin-towers fell, "Why God" was the first thing that crossed my mind. "Do You care"came next.

I've seen things that most people couldn't live with even knowing existed, and I still believe in God.

Why?

Because God never promised an easy life, nor said that He liked what happens in this world. But He does allow it to happen because of free will, but He still loves us and wants us to recieve Him.

Ultamitely, it's not God who is the bad guy, it's us. WE are the ones droping nukes and burning people to death with napalm, not God. WE are the murderers, the rapists, the thieves, and all other evil, not God. It's OUR fault this happens, our choice. And God respects our free will, even though He doesn't enjoy our choices, so he won't and can't intercede.

[Athena]

And according to the Bible the only ways to heaven are these: Be perfect (no sins whatsoever), thus if you have done anything wrong, well... bye-bye.

No one is perfect. We can aim for it though.

As for myself, I don't believe in God, but I don't mind if people tell me about their belief, as long as they're not trying to force it upon me. Openmindedness, if you will.

[AOWR-Theoo Stratiotes]

That was the point, Blaat; no-one is perfect.

Edit: I suggest this be moved to the think tank.

Edited by NecromancerAOWR, 03 July 2006 - 08:59 PM.

[Ash]

Have you ever thought about one thing people say a lot on this site? Free will. God isn't happy about what happens in the world, but he gave us the right to free choice, and he respects that right.

Well then, He should not banish the people who choose not to believe in Him to Hell purely for the fact that, despite they've led good lives, do not believe in Him. On principle, I would tell God to shove his Heaven purely on that basis alone.

And I find the nukes dropped on Japan to be the lesser of two evils; if we had take the other option and invaded, more Japanese civilians would have died than in the nukes. Add on top of that the soldiers from all the sides, and people would be critcizing us now for not dropping the bombs.

Not really. The Japanese were on the verge of surrender. The lesser of two evils is still fucking evil. Over a hundred thousand fucking people DIED in those two attacks, many of whom were CIVILIANS. Now, soldiers want to go fight eachother, hey, occupational fucking hazard, but when you massacre civilians like that without even giving them a fucking chance to escape...that's as abhorrent as anything the Germans did at Auschwitz. It's certainly as genocidal.

Now, what the Nazis did; that is pure evil. The people can be forgiven, but they still would have to be punished. And so far I can't find it in my heart to forgive them.

Then you ignore everything your Messiah teaches. You haven't turned the other cheek. And rightly fucking so. One death is not punishment enough for the Nazis. They should be forced to live a thousand lives of pure agony. But they won't. But nonetheless, you have forsaken a teaching by not forgiving them. Indeed, they do not deserve your forgiveness, but they did what they did, supposedly, in God's name. They persecuted Jews at least partially for being heretics, while proclaiming themselves good Roman Catholics.

As per your comments on getting off free, that is the exact opposite of what I said; I said that God judges based on what we have done; they would have gotten off free if God didn't (and they didn'tt get off free, eternity wise, at least).

Have you ever actually read the Old Testament?

And according to the Bible the only ways to heaven are these: Be perfect (no sins whatsoever), thus if you have done anything wrong, well... bye-bye. The other way is through his son, who died and rose again for us. Thus, when God judges you based on what you've done, a single bad (no matter how little of a bad) would condemn you ontop of all the good in the world that you've done.

That's exactly why I think that, if God does exist, I wouldn't WANT his "salvation" purely because he's a complete git. If he's going to be that utterly sickening, despite all whatever good works I do or have done, he can keep his Heaven. I don't want any part in it.

And who called you a heathen?

Anyone who thinks so. I half-expected you to do so.

God respects our free will. Essentially: He doesn't CAUSE things to happen, but He does ALLOW them to happen.

Well then, he's irresponsible. If He created man in his own image, what the hell does THAT say about God?

I asked questions like "Why is this happening" or "Do You even care" while I was watching cancer and kemo destroy my grandfather's health, and then eventually kill him over a slow period of two years.
I asked these questions when I meet people born with deseases that will kill them before they even reach 20.
I asked this question when my youth-leader told me about a girl he knows who has a non-contagious disease that keeps her downstairs in constant pain, unable to go outside because the vitamin-D from the sun makes it worse.
I ask it every time I see the paper saying "child missing".
When the twin-towers fell, "Why God" was the first thing that crossed my mind. "Do You care"came next.
I've seen things that most people couldn't live with even knowing existed, and I still believe in God.
Why?
Because God never promised an easy life, nor said that He liked what happens in this world. But He does allow it to happen because of free will, but He still loves us and wants us to recieve Him.
Ultamitely, it's not God who is the bad guy, it's us. WE are the ones droping nukes and burning people to death with napalm, not God. WE are the murderers, the rapists, the thieves, and all other evil, not God. It's OUR fault this happens, our choice. And God respects our free will, even though He doesn't enjoy our choices, so he won't and can't intercede.

Well then, he cannot blame us for the choices we make. Nor can he judge us by them. He has absolutely no right to do so, because, despite the fact he COULD intervene, he chooses himself not to. People often choose to shame other people because of their diffusion of responsibility, and the fact that although they COULD HAVE intervened, they did not do so. Well, I accuse God of the same goddamn crime. That is, of course, assuming God exists. It's quite clear to me that he doesn't. If He did, we would not be having this conversation, because murderers, rapists, thieves, nuclear weapons, napalm, war, death, famine, etc would not exist.

Through his apathy, God has disproved his own existence. He did that long ago. Nobody who loves humanity could allow it to destroy itself. Nor could he allow it to destroy the planet as humanity has. Now, on the other hand, if God wanted us to cause this destruction, and that it was somehow part of His Grand Design, that means that he is Satan, and you are yourselves worshipping the Lord of Destruction. Congrats, guys. You're as bad as you perceived pagans to be several hundred/thousand years ago.

Trust me. It's better to be Atheist.

[Athena]

http://www.bozzetto.com/Flash/Life.htm

[AOWR-Theoo Stratiotes]

Paradox, as you yourself stated, some things are near unforgivable; I pray to God I can forgive these people. Someday I hope to.

And God created us in His own image as in we know right and wrong, we have the choice to do right or do wrong. Another reason God won't intercede.

The ultamite reason God doesn't intercede is that most human beings don't want Him to; He respects that choice.

He is not like us, who come in and crush other peoples problems even after asked not to. We don't want His help, so He won't give it.

And we were and are warned about hell, along with the way to escape it. If you don't accept it, well, that's your problem.

And why one sin condemns us is this; no right can undo a wrong.

If I were to kill someone, all the right in the world won't bring him back to life.

Let's say I lied; if I came back and told the truth later, did I still lie at one point?

Yes.

Ultamitely, it comes to this: God loves us and wants to stop the evil, but we don't want His help. So we continue doing wrong. And He still loves us and gave us a Savior. Despite all that we do.

And remember this: WE are the ones doing wrong, not God. If you can't accept that, well that's your problem.

And Paradox, when we die we will find out who's right; where would you rather be:

In eternal unconciousness.
In an eternally burning blackness of the worst torture possible.
In a place of eternal paradise.

The choice is yours, and at this point the argument comes to an impass; I say it's our problem, you say it's Gods. All we're doing now is representing the same arguments.

I say we have ending arguments and close the topic.

[Ash]

Paradox, as you yourself stated, some things are near unforgivable; I pray to God I can forgive these people. Someday I hope to.

Good for you. Wish I could be so forgiving, though if God won't intercede (you say this yourself later), why bother praying to him? You know yourself he won't do anything.

And God created us in His own image as in we know right and wrong, we have the choice to do right or do wrong. Another reason God won't intercede.

As I said, what is the point in worshipping and praying to a God you know won't answer your prayers? That's like asking your mum for the car keys at Christmas; you just know she won't deliver. If God has given us the choice to do right or wrong, he shouldn't be so judgemental when we choose to do wrong.

The ultamite reason God doesn't intercede is that most human beings don't want Him to; He respects that choice.

Damn, I'd LOVE him to intercede and stop all pain and evil in the world, but he won't, because he either is not there at all, or he doesn't give a shit about us. Either way, why should I worship him?

He is not like us, who come in and crush other peoples problems even after asked not to. We don't want His help, so He won't give it.

If nobody wanted his help, religion wouldn't exist. Sorry, but that's pissed on that bonfire, hasn't it?

And we were and are warned about hell, along with the way to escape it. If you don't accept it, well, that's your problem.

And why one sin condemns us is this; no right can undo a wrong.

If I were to kill someone, all the right in the world won't bring him back to life.

Let's say I lied; if I came back and told the truth later, did I still lie at one point?

I agree. But when the 'wrong' is atheism, when one compares that to the 'wrong' of cold-blooded murder, which is worse? In God's eyes, atheism. A murderer can repent and confess his sins, say he's sorry and still be on the stairway to Heaven. For me, that in itself is wrong. Sorry, but you're not fooling me. Not every sin or wrongdoing is severe enough to warrant punishment. Nobody can or should have to forgive a murder, however my atheism affects nobody on the planet but myself. Given that I live a good life, do not kill anyone or commit crimes, and do well for my future family, I should not be punished on the fact I DO NOT worship, but instead should be praised on the things I HAVE done.

Ultamitely, it comes to this: God loves us and wants to stop the evil, but we don't want His help. So we continue doing wrong. And He still loves us and gave us a Savior. Despite all that we do.

No matter how much we ask for His help, he does not answer. If he wanted to stop all the evil, he could just snap his omnipresent fingers. It really wouldn't be that hard for an all-powerful diety to end all wrongs of the world. The fact he does not do so disproves your very statement. God, as our Father, as any Father should, should be looking out for and making the very best for us all. Is the fact he allows the atrocities to go on, and punishes those who have done fuck all, a sign of a bad father, or an even worse deity?

Oh, and by the way, I know that we're the ones doing wrong. However everyone seems to tell me that bystander apathy is every bit as bad as committing the crime itself. Therefore I accuse God of bystander apathy. That was my point.

And Paradox, when we die we will find out who's right; where would you rather be:

In eternal unconciousness.
In an eternally burning blackness of the worst torture possible.
In a place of eternal paradise.

I choose Door Number One, thankyou very much, Jackie. On principle alone, I cannot wish for eternal paradise. That's on the very assumption and hypothesis that God DOES exist, just as much of this post works on. Were I to be giving you the answer on God NOT existing, it would be the same.

[AOWR-Theoo Stratiotes]

"We" is a general statement, first of all.

And I pray to Him because He will intercede in some things, I.e. the girl with the one disease, God may intercede, or he may not. Praying for something beyond any human control, and thus not praying for something against human free will, is different from praying for God to intercede against the will of a human being doing something wrong.

And I ask you this: what is right and wrong if you're an athiest? Who decides whether you should be able to do this or not? And why is something you decide is wrong wrong?

Let me propose to you a situation:

A small child sees a thorn bush, and asks his father what it is.
"A thornbush, it's a plant with small poking things sticking out that hurt when you touch them."
The child reaches out to touch one, and the father wanrs him "don't touch the bush; the thorns can hurt alot"
The child reaches out again and is again warned.
The child reaches out a third time, but this time the father doesn't stop him; the child has proven the only way he will learn is experience.
And he grabs a thorn.
"OW!" The child screames, now knowing that the thorns hurt. The father then helps the child and bandages the small cut.
A few minutes later they come to more thorn bushes, and the child again reaches out to touch them.

[Athena]

What does your example have to do with believing in God or not?

That's the natural way humans (and other organisms) learn, if it hurts to touch those thorns, they eventually will stay away from it. Pain means something's wrong with the body.

For me personally, I decide what I find right and wrong. And I try to act like what I see as right. The Bible does contain some good things (the 10 commandments I believe) on morality, treat others the way you want to be treated, don't kill, etc. I do wonder though, where that leaves a few of those religious fanatics, as they seem to disregard some words.

[AOWR-Theoo Stratiotes]

I agree that some Christians don't act like it, but I find that the majority of people throw the whole of Christianity in as just like them.

And the story is this:

We found out what right and wrong were the hard way; God warned us, but we tried it out anyway; and after 5,000 years of this, all the pain, the death, etc., etc., we continue to do wrong, continue to make it worse.

EVEN IF GOD FIXED ALL THE WRONG IN THE WORLD WE WOULD HAVE JUST AS MUCH AGAIN IN 24 HOURS.

[Athena]

I think a 4-year-old child doesn't know thorns can hurt until he/she has tried it himself/herself.

Define what you see as wrong. I don't believe one person can be blamed for another person's wrongdoings. They could've tried to stop the person, but it's mainly the person who did wrong that is to blame (or maybe their parents etc.), not humanity as a whole.

[Az3r^]

God is but Ink on paper....

[Athena]

I'm not saying there cannot exist a God. But that example given doesn't convince nor proves much.

[AOWR-Theoo Stratiotes]

I believe that children need to learn it that way myself. I learned the same lesson myself.

But even 4-year-olds know better than to do the same thing again. I.e: grabing MORE thorns after the first painful experience, just as in the story (didn't you read the end?). Just like we should know better than to continue doing wrong.

Edit: I have not said that the rest of humanity is to blame. But that we each have our own wrongs to account for, myself included.

Edited by NecromancerAOWR, 03 July 2006 - 11:06 PM.