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#61 Athena

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Posted 03 July 2006 - 11:04 PM

What do 'we' wrong then? I do not believe I have participated in much acts that I see as wrong.

#62 Ash

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Posted 03 July 2006 - 11:08 PM

And I pray to Him because He will intercede in some things, I.e. the girl with the one disease, God may intercede, or he may not. Praying for something beyond any human control, and thus not praying for something against human free will, is different from praying for God to intercede against the will of a human being doing something wrong.

o_0
But you can't be sure he'll listen. If the girl with the disease recovers, you could claim it a miracle. Or you could realise she'd been popped a wonderdrug pill. Yet, had she not recovered, you would claim God had forsaken you. If God truly existed, you shouldn't NEED to pray for his help, for there should be no need to ask for his help in the first place.

And I ask you this: what is right and wrong if you're an athiest? Who decides whether you should be able to do this or not? And why is something you decide is wrong wrong?

Unlike the Christian, the Atheist is either bound by societal norms (just as the Christian is, though he is loath to admit it, preferring to account his morality to the Bible), or by his own set of moral and ethical conclusions that he came to himself based on past experience. Atheists are free to make of their own fate what they will. An atheist needn't be a causer of anarchy or mass-murderer. If an atheist believes something is wrong, he believes it is wrong, either because of what he has been taught (due to the norms and laws that exist in his society), or because of some conclusion he reaches on his own.
Humanity doesn't need a guidebook to tell us what is right and what is wrong. That notwithstanding, I don't see many Christians following the Old Testament's tenets very often (most specifically the 'stone your family to death for worshipping a false god). Clearly somebody's told them that that is wrong. What made them decide that stoning one's family to death for heresy was wrong? The human mind itself. The very same thing that told the atheist, or the people who worshipped gods before the Christian God was even thought of, that to kill every human being they saw was wrong.


I agree that some Christians don't act like it, but I find that the majority of people throw the whole of Christianity in as just like them.
And the story is this:
We found out what right and wrong were the hard way; God warned us, but we tried it out anyway; and after 5,000 years of this, all the pain, the death, etc., etc., we continue to do wrong, continue to make it worse.
EVEN IF GOD FIXED ALL THE WRONG IN THE WORLD WE WOULD HAVE JUST AS MUCH AGAIN IN 24 HOURS.

Not if he fixed all of it. If he is all knowing and all seeing, he can see and know all the wrong that *might* be conducted, and would snap his omnipotent fingers and cleanse it before we could do it. :)

This is my point about bystander apathy, dude. I hold God as accountable for the fact he allowed us to do it despite his all-governing Lordship (a title which by its very virtue conveys power and governance).

#63 AOWR-Theoo Stratiotes

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Posted 03 July 2006 - 11:08 PM

I'm not saying you have. I'm not saying any of us has.

And as per my definition of wrong: Largely the christian/jew veiw of wrong.

Edit: For the post by Blaat 2 things back.

Edited by NecromancerAOWR, 03 July 2006 - 11:10 PM.

Into the fires of Orodruin,
The One must be cast
This is the price that must be paid,
Only thus its power will be undone
Only thus, a great evil, unmade

There is no other choice.
There is no other way.
One of you must take it,
One of you must pay.

Mi naurath Orodruin
Boe hedi i vin
Han i vengad i moe ben bango
Sin eriol natha tur in ugarnen
Sin eriol um beleg ugannen

U cilith 'war.
U men 'war.
Boe min mebi,
Boe min bango.

#64 Athena

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Posted 03 July 2006 - 11:14 PM

People make small and bigger mistakes and learn from them. No one is perfect and no one is without a single mistake. It's the way the human mind works.

To quote someone (translated by me): A person who makes a mistake and doesn't correct it, makes a mistake again. Admit that you have made a mistake and it's halfway corrected already.

#65 AOWR-Theoo Stratiotes

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Posted 03 July 2006 - 11:15 PM

Dude, he is omnipotent. And Lord is actually a mistranslation on the part of Jewish=English translators.

Yahweh (God's actual name-name, in the way that Andrew is my name, English form Jehovah) means "I AM" and is mistranslated as "The LORD"

Adonai is one of the most frequent titles and is translated "The Lord" (notice the non-all-cap "Lord"), and has an unsure meaning, but probably "My God" would be the most accurate.

Although in my opinion God deserves the title anyway, yea though it was never claimed by Him.

Edit: The above is for Paradox.

Edit: The below is for Blaat:

Thank you, that is my point in case.

Edit2: Sorry, slight mistake on Yahweh's meaning: it is "I AM THAT I AM".

Edited by NecromancerAOWR, 03 July 2006 - 11:21 PM.

Into the fires of Orodruin,
The One must be cast
This is the price that must be paid,
Only thus its power will be undone
Only thus, a great evil, unmade

There is no other choice.
There is no other way.
One of you must take it,
One of you must pay.

Mi naurath Orodruin
Boe hedi i vin
Han i vengad i moe ben bango
Sin eriol natha tur in ugarnen
Sin eriol um beleg ugannen

U cilith 'war.
U men 'war.
Boe min mebi,
Boe min bango.

#66 Athena

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Posted 03 July 2006 - 11:46 PM

But why should anyone go to a church to someone they don't know and commit their 'sins' there? If I do something wrong, I learn from it. I don't need someone I don't know at all to put judgement upon it (unless it's hurting other people etc). I would not call a mistake a sin, you learn from mistakes, it's good that you make a mistake now and then, so you yourself can learn from it and improve upon. If you've made a mistake, you may as well learn from it. There doesn't have to be a higher being involved neccesarily.

#67 AOWR-Theoo Stratiotes

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Posted 04 July 2006 - 12:03 AM

I agree. I should have chosen something that was wrong and resulted in pain, rather than an innocent mistake. I am sorry for that.

And the catholics are the only ones who say you're "damned to hell" if you confess your sins in private rather than to them.

Most christians don't confess they're sin to some random priest, but to God, as the Bible says we're to. Most do say they're sorry to the person they sinned against.

Edit: No, honest, innocent mistakes can't really be considered sins. Although, many things that are 'mistakes' tend to be such things as I.e. taking drugs: a 'mistake' you were warned against by parents, one for which you take the consequences (drugs can permantly damage or kill you). But the thorns was definitly not in that category; it was childly innocence. The first time at least.

Edited by NecromancerAOWR, 04 July 2006 - 12:07 AM.

Into the fires of Orodruin,
The One must be cast
This is the price that must be paid,
Only thus its power will be undone
Only thus, a great evil, unmade

There is no other choice.
There is no other way.
One of you must take it,
One of you must pay.

Mi naurath Orodruin
Boe hedi i vin
Han i vengad i moe ben bango
Sin eriol natha tur in ugarnen
Sin eriol um beleg ugannen

U cilith 'war.
U men 'war.
Boe min mebi,
Boe min bango.

#68 Calamity_Jones

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Posted 04 July 2006 - 01:02 AM

http://www.bozzetto.com/Flash/Life.htm :)


that's brilliant :)

Dude, he is omnipotent. And Lord is actually a mistranslation on the part of Jewish=English translators.


'dude' I'm fucking omnipotent, and so is this coffee (damn it's good omnipotent coffee). It's what I believe, I'm God! hah! The flying spaghetti monster is God!

Dont go stating opinion in the guise of fact.

Yahweh (God's actual name-name, in the way that Andrew is my name, English form Jehovah) means "I AM" and is mistranslated as "The LORD"

Adonai is one of the most frequent titles and is translated "The Lord" (notice the non-all-cap "Lord"), and has an unsure meaning, but probably "My God" would be the most accurate.

Although in my opinion God deserves the title anyway, yea though it was never claimed by Him.


He's a narcissistic self loving zeus-ripoff really isn't he?

Edited by Calamity_Jones, 04 July 2006 - 01:08 AM.

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#69 MSpencer

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Posted 04 July 2006 - 01:27 AM

Nothing can be omnipotent. Look up the omnipotence paradox, it belies the true paradoxical nature of the mere thought.
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#70 AOWR-Theoo Stratiotes

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Posted 04 July 2006 - 01:54 AM

Omnipotent means "All-Powerful" or something just like it according to every dictionary I've ever seen.

And God by His very name is omnipotent.
Into the fires of Orodruin,
The One must be cast
This is the price that must be paid,
Only thus its power will be undone
Only thus, a great evil, unmade

There is no other choice.
There is no other way.
One of you must take it,
One of you must pay.

Mi naurath Orodruin
Boe hedi i vin
Han i vengad i moe ben bango
Sin eriol natha tur in ugarnen
Sin eriol um beleg ugannen

U cilith 'war.
U men 'war.
Boe min mebi,
Boe min bango.

#71 Calamity_Jones

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Posted 04 July 2006 - 02:32 AM

so is the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

that argument is ridiculous.

Edited by Calamity_Jones, 04 July 2006 - 02:33 AM.

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#72 MSpencer

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Posted 04 July 2006 - 03:17 AM

All powerful, able to do anything. That's what omnipotence means.
You can't just say "God is omnipotent by definition". While that is true, by the definition of the very word, it is a physical impossibility to be omnipotent.
For example, if an omnipotent being creates a rock so heavy that nothing, not even the omnipotent being can lift it, he is not omnipotent, because he can't lift that rock. If he cannot create a rock so heavy that even he himself cannot lift it, then he is not omnipotent. Therefore, omnipotence is paradoxical in nature, and thus, physically impossible.
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#73 Ash

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Posted 04 July 2006 - 10:47 AM

What a glorious and altogether awesome post. I salute you, Spencer! :huh:

#74 Calamity_Jones

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Posted 04 July 2006 - 11:13 AM

Agreed :huh: I can't wait to see what his counter will be...

Probably something like "[insert flimsy logic, incorrect and dubiously sourced 'facts' and something in caps lock]."

Edited by Calamity_Jones, 04 July 2006 - 11:13 AM.

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#75 AOWR-Theoo Stratiotes

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Posted 05 July 2006 - 07:12 PM

"All-powerful" is not the ability to do anything. It is power over everything. I agree there is no such thing as being able to do anything. It depends upon your defenition of "Omnipotent". I have already stated mine.
Into the fires of Orodruin,
The One must be cast
This is the price that must be paid,
Only thus its power will be undone
Only thus, a great evil, unmade

There is no other choice.
There is no other way.
One of you must take it,
One of you must pay.

Mi naurath Orodruin
Boe hedi i vin
Han i vengad i moe ben bango
Sin eriol natha tur in ugarnen
Sin eriol um beleg ugannen

U cilith 'war.
U men 'war.
Boe min mebi,
Boe min bango.

#76 MSpencer

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Posted 06 July 2006 - 01:09 AM

You can't have your own definition of the word "outside", or the word "lightbulb", or the word "computer". The entire English speaking world has decided what omnipotent means, you can't have your own definition.
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#77 Calamity_Jones

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Posted 06 July 2006 - 10:10 AM

you can, if you want, write the AOWR dictionary, with such entries as:

*Fact: A statement that can be created arbritrarily to support a religious argument and ignorantly dismissed if it counters one.

*Logic: What?

*Caps Lock: Instant agrument winner.

*Science: Wrong when it argues against Religion, right when it supports it.

but I suspect the Oxford dictionary might just get more appreciation and use.
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#78 Ash

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Posted 06 July 2006 - 11:44 AM

One word: OWNED.

Which, incidentally, has gained a new semantic definition in the past few years. :santah:

#79 Mathijs

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Posted 06 July 2006 - 12:23 PM

you can, if you want, write the AOWR dictionary, with such entries as:

*Fact: A statement that can be created arbritrarily to support a religious argument and ignorantly dismissed if it counters one.

*Logic: What?

*Caps Lock: Instant agrument winner.

*Science: Wrong when it argues against Religion, right when it supports it.

but I suspect the Oxford dictionary might just get more appreciation and use.


:santah: I laughed out loud, I frickin did..

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#80 MCV

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Posted 06 July 2006 - 12:26 PM

Meanings of omnipotence

Between people of different faiths, or indeed even between people of the same faith, the term omnipotent has been used to connote a number of different positions. These positions include but are not limited to:

God can not only transcend the laws of physics and probability, but can also transcend logical truths (for example, God could create a square circle, or could make one equal two), because God is not bound by any limitations.

http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Omnipotent


om·nip·o·tent
Having unlimited or universal power, authority, or force; all-powerful.

http://dictionary.re...owse/omnipotent

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