92 replies to this topic

[Ash]

Quite.

[Nighthawk]

It's even worse here, they put their foot in the door so you can't close it on them.

[Andre27]

Before this goes into another anti-christianity rant, you folks should realize that the Jehova's Witnesses are a sect totally unrelated to Christianity.

[ambershee]

No they're not; they're just an example of one of many a divergent Christian faiths.

[Pyromeleon]

no Andre's right, their belief system is alot different

[ihateharriers]

the jehova's are a very different sect compared to say roman catholicism, but the biggest thing is that thier religion works more off the paranoia/fear/teh omg impending doom part of your brain whereas Catholicism is more of the part the brain that deals with servitude and duty.

as for AWOR, he's thirteen and lives a tiny little shit town that's probably in the middle of nowhere in washington state - not the most exciting place to be. and as a thirteen year old living in a place like that, if there was a cult that involved jumping off of cliffs he's prolly be willing to throw himself to that allegiance just as he would to religion. i know, i was thirteen once, and although it wasn't religion i was going gung ho for it wasn't too much different, but i was lucky enough to have to been bit in the ass enough times as to where i can when something is going a little too far. i have become the bitter asshole as well as the intelligent thinker, both of which are almost a result of each other. and i am totally cool with you believing what you want to believe in, but it has to be within reason.

as for preaching this idealogy on these forums, i think he's gonna find out real fast how sticking to an idealogy blindly is gonna hurt when somebody gives him a run for his money and shows him that you have to be careful to know what you believe in and not just follow those who tell you what to believe. he's still young, and i hope that somebody teaches him a lesson before it's too late.

[ambershee]

no Andre's right, their belief system is alot different

Their belief system is based on literal translation of the Bible, they claim to be the restoration of that of the first century Christian belief system.

They don't differ very much from "mainstream" Christian sects, but notably in certain doctrines such as Hell or Trinity and adopting a more unitarianist approach. Other than that, their doctrines and practices are very much Christian in nature (Except maybe disfellowship, but that's something that still happens in small Christian communities anyway).

[Fingulfin]

OK now for my post, which you guys will probably eat alive.

I am A christian, and a "Religiously Home schooled" Christian at that. I disagree with what a lot of you have been saying but agree with others.

1: The Bible DOES say that we should try to convert others. See number 6

2: Jehovah's Witnesses are a TON Different from the central Protestant belief.

3: I do read my Bible, and take nothing my Pastor says unless he has good, Biblical Evidence.

4: I do believe Evolution is a STUPID Theory, but I will not openly debate it. See number 6

5: Its your judgment whether I'm an Extremest or not. If given the Choice, I would rather Die for my God than Kill for my God. However: If he asks me to kill, I will.


6: I do NOT believe in even attempting to witness over any kind of Forums, E-mail or IM Service. It is an utter waste of time. It is your choice to choose what you believe. The best thing you can do in life is choose a system and remain faithful to it. The only time I will even mention my Faith here is if it is under attack because of some nOOb who thinks he can "lead you all to salvation" or some other kind of crap.

The only thing I ask of you is not to be quick to judge. Don't Stereotype an entire group because of one idiot. I have met good Atheists who live better than some "Christians". I have met some Christians who live better than some Atheists. If you get any thing out of my post, please make it point number six. Kill me if you will, but that's my opinion on this subject.

Edited by Fingulfin, 15 July 2006 - 10:18 AM.

[ambershee]

2: Jehovah's Witnesses are a TON Different from the central Protestant belief.

Yup. But it's still generally classified as Christian. There's also a lot of minor differences I didn't touch on. Let's end that argument anyway, I'm sure there's plenty of material out there for those that want to read up on it anyway.

4: I do believe Evolution is a STUPID Theory, but I will not openly debate it. See number 6

I'm curious to hear your arguments for that one, subjectively, but I'm not going to press you into it.

The only thing I ask of you is not to be quick to judge. Don't Stereotype an entire group because of one idiot. I have met good Atheists who live better than some "Christians". I have met some Christians who live better than some Atheists.

The relevant part of that post. I think that's bang on the buck. You can't brand a number of people for the actions of a select few individuals.

[ihateharriers]

the problem is that the number of individuals is starting to outgrow what most consider "the few". in my little town of baldwinsville, NY, there are well over a hundred kids in the church groups sponsered in the area, most of which reside in a program known as "latter rain", which i think a national organization that is compried of smaller groups in different cities and towns. add in the fact that about 500-700 people consider themsleves athiests, another 50-100 (with a hundred maybe being a little high, but it wouldn't surprise me at all) consider themselves devil worshippers, that means about 4200 out of roughly 5000 people are Christians are part of this somewhat extreme group. put that into a national or worldy perspective, and that's a lot of people.

Just so you know, i describe the latter rain group as extreme not because they take extreme actions actions to get their point across to others, but because they are literaly obsessed with what they are doing. one of my friends had to hold me back from beating the hell out of a kid in the group who replied to the question "What's up" with the response "Preparing for eternity."

[Andre27]

2: Jehovah's Witnesses are a TON Different from the central Protestant belief.

Yup. But it's still generally classified as Christian. There's also a lot of minor differences I didn't touch on. Let's end that argument anyway, I'm sure there's plenty of material out there for those that want to read up on it anyway.

Well they don't classify themselves as being Christians so why should de rest of us classify them as such?

Calling a jehova's Witness a Christian is like calling a Muslim a Christian.

[MSpencer]

Calling evolution a stupid scientific theory is like calling the Bible literal fact.
Evolution changed the way biologists look at the world. To dismiss it as a "stupid theory" is like saying the entire discipline of physics is wrong because you say so.

[Fingulfin]

I beleive there is Strong Scientific Evidence against it, I did not immediatly pass it off the first time I heard of it. I however do not really want to debate it, cause it normally starts long and heated hatred between people.

And yes, saying the Theory of Evolution is wrong IS saying the Bible/Koran/Book'o'Mormon/whatever-you-want-with-creation-in-it is right. There really isnt a choice other than Chance or Design. I dont know what you call "chance", but I will edit my post if it represents your side of the story better.

Edited by Fingulfin, 16 July 2006 - 03:37 AM.

[Destroyer]

Fingulfin, could you please explain the following to me:

How is it that almost all species have changed over time? To back that up, I call upon all discovered human fossils. Is that not evolution?

How do all organisms share a large percentage of DNA, if they are not from the same original organism?


I won't even go into how cells could have easily formed on earth's early surface.

[MSpencer]

I'm a staunch believer in science, so unless you decide to bring out the "strong scientific evidence" which doesn't exist, I'm just not going to listen to you. People have had their theories proven and disproven numerous times throughout the history of science. The theory of evolution and natural selection is one of the boldest, greatest theories ever put forth by any biologist, and is undebatably considered true in the field of evolutionary biology, developemental biology, and in general, the entire field of biology. We can prove it just like we can prove parts of relativity on a small scale, but the only reason why it's still a theory and not a law is that we can't completely put it in mathematical tems.
But as I was saying, unless you have this miraculous proof, you're just another one of those people who doesn't want to understand the world, and as a result gives up and says "God did it".

[Fingulfin]

Not reall. At Destroyer: Define for me "Evolution". There is more than one kind of Evolution, But Im only gonna list two, cause I can't remember the others right now Ill look them up later.

1: Macro Evolution: The change of one KIND into another. EXAMPLE: Apes to Humans.

2: Micro Evolution: The change of one SPECIES to another. EXAMPLE: Saltwater Croc to Freshwater Croc.

While I believe Macro evolution is not the brightest theory man has ever had, I know that Micro Evolution is possible.

@ MSpencer: You havent shown ANY Evidence at all to prove evolution. While I can show plenty of Evidence that disproves evolution, you would show it off or ignore it. Give me evidence and Ill debate it. As far as positive evidence towards creation, you give me one for evolution, Ill debate it, then Ill give you one. If I can't, then show me off as an idiot. Or, you could Ignore me, and I say the same of you that you said of me. (The You have no evidence bla bla bla...) Quick Question: I want to know if you believe in the big Bang. Thats one of the easiest to debate

Edited by Fingulfin, 17 July 2006 - 03:17 AM.

[MSpencer]

It would take far less time for you to point out your non-existent holes in the modernized Theory of Evolution and Natural Selection than it would for me to go through all the proof behind it. Although, if you really want, I can recommend about three hundred books, and about three thousand scientific papers which all contain supporting evidence. Although I'm sure you're waiting for a "reputable" source, perhaps something from the Vatican.

[Hostile]

I'm a staunch believer in science, so unless you decide to bring out the "strong scientific evidence" which doesn't exist, I'm just not going to listen to you. People have had their theories proven and disproven numerous times throughout the history of science. The theory of evolution and natural selection is one of the boldest, greatest theories ever put forth by any biologist, and is undebatably considered true in the field of evolutionary biology, developemental biology, and in general, the entire field of biology. We can prove it just like we can prove parts of relativity on a small scale, but the only reason why it's still a theory and not a law is that we can't completely put it in mathematical tems.
But as I was saying, unless you have this miraculous proof, you're just another one of those people who doesn't want to understand the world, and as a result gives up and says "God did it".

Well, I hope you would not die based on those words. I assume you also know that there is one GIANT bug in the evolution theory. That is the fact that any genetic change is considered a mutant and it mostly has dominant traits, and usually results in the the death of the offspring.

When an organism's DNA changes it's a liability, not an evolutionary process. It hinders, and does not perpetuate a species. I'm sure someone of your great scientific understanding has to agree, change does not happen based on mutations. Mutated organisms die, like improper coding.

So if mutations are OBVISIOUSLY not the reason why things evolve, than what is? How are these organsims evolving if it is not happening by genetic mutations?

Now it is time for you to climb out of your (scientific) bunker and tell us how evolution works if it DOES NOT USE MUTATIONS. As we all know mutations are a liability, not a blessing.

[MSpencer]

They're not mutations if they affect a large population of a species. It has to do with the accumulation of changes based on reproductive success. Think of it as a mean genetic presence curve being affected by numerous forces, such as predation. Those with genes that make them less fit organisms (decreasing their likelihood to reproduce), die more often than more fit organisms, thus decreasing the allele frequency of that certain gene. Then, depending on the allele frequency of certain genes, and other factors, speciation can occur, but this normally can only occur when a certain population is isolated either by pre-zygotic or post-zygotic isolation, which can be due to location, mating habits, or genetic makeup.
In short, not everything is a mutation. Many genes are controlled by multiple alleles, and when allele frequencies change and changes start to accumulate in a certain population, speciation begins to occur. This happens over hundreds of generations though, so it's not exactly an instantaneous thing.

And mutations can be a blessing. What if you have a genetic mutation which might protect you from liver cancer, such as a deletion in a sequence of amino acids in a gene which you inherited from your parents, which would normally produce a protein that increases your chances of getting a tumor. It's all well documented stuff, and also, you've got plenty of mutations in your body, you just don't know it. DNA Polymerase is incorrect every 100,000 base pairs, and the sealing enzymes can fuck up too, meaning your DNA can be screwed up quite a bit when it's replicated, you just don't see any differences because normally the changes are within introns, pieces of DNA which aren't actively transcribed and translated, or are cut out by certain enzymes when they are transcribed.

In short, looking from an inexperienced view, it may seem like there are issues regarding evolution and mutations, but there aren't, really. It just depends on the depth you go into. Most high school biology classes don't exactly cover much more than the basics of why evolution is a good theory, but if you study it in college, you study the details too, and believe me, the details blow your speculation out of the water.
It's just how life works.

[Hostile]

So blow my specualtion out of the water. Show me where a mutation has resulted in a changing of an organism? Show me how an organism was mutated naturally, and it followed through to a result that ended up as positive for the organism.

Mutations are a genetic defect, not an evolutionary process.