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#1 Guest_Adoldhus Perrywinkle the 13th_*

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Posted 14 October 2006 - 08:38 PM

Hello. ^_^ I'd just like to hop in and give my general praise to the Dawn of Skirmish team. You have not only improved the game for me and many others, for me you've actually saved it. The whole production litterally seethes of style. I was impressed when I first downloaded 1.9, and realised you had even included a user-friendly tool that had a really simple and practical slider-function you'd use to increase or decrease the time it took the AI to attack, turning things such as dancing and harrassing on and off etc. (For a future release, how about adding a "Revert to Defaults"-button in the AI menu?) What's more, the whole mod came with a smart installer-exe file as well, so that I didn't have to mess around with files, folders and the likes. :)

And the fact that you heighten the vanilla experience aside; the fact that you keep supporting mods with truly excellent AI is also a point of honour in my book. Where would mods like DoWpro and the likes be then? BTW; from various posts on this forum; I get the impression that you sometimes speak a little bit with some representatives from the devs about your work or something? In other words, they actually know about you people too? Could this perhaps be the reason for the lackluster vanilla AIs?

I've just got Dark Crusade, and I'm litterally suffering. :grin: The game is absolutely great, but the AI's so downright horrible, (Surprise, surprise!), that I contemplated uninstalling it until the DC version of your mod was released, thus saving some space on my PC in the process. However, I figured that at least Quickstart-mode shouldn't be too hard on the AI, as everything is more availiable. Although, even the AI in-combat-tactics suffer. When you seem to be in a bad spot during a firefight, it might be a good idea to pull back in beforehand, before things really go bad, right? Well, maybe not if you're the Necrons. When your troops move slower on the battlefield than you do when crawling out of bed in the morning, you might not want to have them slowly, no haste, turning their backs to the enemy before sloooowly, caaalmly, luuumbering off to home-base, allowing your guys to simply run after them and relentlessly shoot them in the back with no resistance from the Necron warriors in question.

When on the topic of Necron AI, there are many other stupid instances from them as well. Like resurrecting the hero right in the middle of your army, allowing your guys to shoot him straight down again before he could get anywhere, for example. ;)

Really, I can't wait for you guys to release Dawn of Skirmish for DC. Anyways; I just wanted to say good job, keep going strong, and, well, thank you an awful lot. You people seem to be really enthusiastic about what you're doing. still, kinda sucks that players will have to depend on a third-party mod for the vanilla game to be enjoyable. :)

#2 thudo

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Posted 14 October 2006 - 08:49 PM

Thanks! Trust me: DC AI is gonna get a massive facelift. I went trying the DC AI to see how it faces each other in a FFA. Damn it was sad. Utterly.. I'm a little taken a back why Relic didn't do much with it - they had our project ready for months and then they did nothing.

Granted, Relic DID add all that new AI functionality but never added the advanced behavour and build/research orders. I was utterly shocked how the DC AI *DOES NOT* assist its ally on defense of its ally's base. Oh man this was bad. All this was long since in our AI.

Anyway.. with the new functionality in DC + our Advanced AI = :grin: :) ;) ^_^

Good times lay ahead...

We hope to have a working v1.10b1 build before DC is globally released in 2 weeks. I am dying to get this going and will put as much effort into seeing this thru. I've been scripting the DC stuff into our AI for 3 days and its pretty much complete - will go back to it once I see the AI working then start optimizing for gameplay. Just waiting on Arkhan to acquire DC then we'll press forward. Regrettably, Europe doesn't have DC yet for another 1-2 weeks. :( Sad considering Warhammer40k has its greatest following in Europe compared to anywhere in the world.
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#3 Malkor

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Posted 15 October 2006 - 11:04 PM

Relic can't put in your AI project without paying you, and without admitting they are idiots. I really wouldn't depend on them to make it official.

Who knows, though. If you keep at it enough, they might try to hire you. That's what Blizzard did with Andy Bond, who pioneered Starcraft modding, and is now a lead programmer in Warcraft III and WoW.

Also it's no surprise companies like Relic ditch the AI. Few games even have a Skirmish mode anymore, which is a good reason why I don't give a damn about 99% of the games released in the past five years. It just sucks the maps in DoW are so small, and games are way too fast.

Edited by Malkor, 15 October 2006 - 11:06 PM.


#4 thudo

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Posted 16 October 2006 - 12:32 AM

Maps small in DoW/WA/DC? Which maps are really big compared to scale? Age of Empires? Well thats just the way the theme goes. Plus, DoW is based kinda on TT.. are boardmaps in TT massive? Nope. In fact they are mostly the size of a 4 kitchentop stoves put together to form one large square. Most RTSes have small maps anyway. DoW/WA/DC is based on fast combat engagements anyway.. no turtling.. no superweapons..
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#5 Malkor

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Posted 16 October 2006 - 01:12 AM

Well, I just like FFAs to be a bit more about strategy then rushing your neighbors. The bigger the maps the better. Plus I find it really hard to turtle in DoW and in DC it's going to be even harder.

#6 ThetaOrion

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Posted 16 October 2006 - 02:18 AM

If we are going to talk about maps, Rise of Nations lets you create some really huge maps and select six or seven opponents, and those maps can take a very long time to clean out. And, sometimes when an enemy takes out another enemy and gets his territory, you can find yourself an hour into the game and then suddenly losing big time. When you hold 25 percent of the map, and the leading enemy holds 50 percent or more, you are in for a very rough time.

I was pretty pleased with Rise of Nations, although there are 25 plus different factions, there's not much diversity in those factions, of course. And, sometimes the AI gets confused, but sometimes it is brutal and you are gone before you really get started. It really depends upon which factions you choose to play as and against.

Excellent skirmish mode play, imho, when it comes to Rise of Nations.

But, you are right, it's hard to find a good skirmish game any more.

Although, I have also been enjoying the BFME II skirmish mode. There's not as much diversity in BFME factions, either, although there are six of them. What is cool about BFME II is that there are so dog gone many maps. I have spent a month and only gotten through a third of them. There must be sixty different maps to try, if not more. It can keep you busy. And, creating your own custom hero can be a lot of fun as well.

There are other good games out there that can provide some enjoyment, even in skirmish mode. But, none of the others out there seem to have the diversity of factions and the intense gameplay and Thud on the case making an AI for them. Thud's AI really is special and unique, and does add a whole other dimension to the game. I haven't seen working mods for RTS games that don't crash anywhere else. Nothing that compares to what has been done and is being done for DoW. And, Thud really is the heart and soul of it all. DoW and DC would be just mediocre, or so so, like the other games, if it weren't for Thud, Arkhan, Riker, and Larkin cooking us up some good gameplay.

#7 Zenoth

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Posted 16 October 2006 - 02:56 AM

If we are going to talk about maps, Rise of Nations lets you create some really huge maps and select six or seven opponents, and those maps can take a very long time to clean out. And, sometimes when an enemy takes out another enemy and gets his territory, you can find yourself an hour into the game and then suddenly losing big time. When you hold 25 percent of the map, and the leading enemy holds 50 percent or more, you are in for a very rough time.

I was pretty pleased with Rise of Nations, although there are 25 plus different factions, there's not much diversity in those factions, of course. And, sometimes the AI gets confused, but sometimes it is brutal and you are gone before you really get started. It really depends upon which factions you choose to play as and against.

Excellent skirmish mode play, imho, when it comes to Rise of Nations.

But, you are right, it's hard to find a good skirmish game any more.

Although, I have also been enjoying the BFME II skirmish mode. There's not as much diversity in BFME factions, either, although there are six of them. What is cool about BFME II is that there are so dog gone many maps. I have spent a month and only gotten through a third of them. There must be sixty different maps to try, if not more. It can keep you busy. And, creating your own custom hero can be a lot of fun as well.

There are other good games out there that can provide some enjoyment, even in skirmish mode. But, none of the others out there seem to have the diversity of factions and the intense gameplay and Thud on the case making an AI for them. Thud's AI really is special and unique, and does add a whole other dimension to the game. I haven't seen working mods for RTS games that don't crash anywhere else. Nothing that compares to what has been done and is being done for DoW. And, Thud really is the heart and soul of it all. DoW and DC would be just mediocre, or so so, like the other games, if it weren't for Thud, Arkhan, Riker, and Larkin cooking us up some good gameplay.


I never played Rise of Nations, I heard it's a great game, despite the aging graphics (of course, that's secondary, and maybe third after game-play itself, in importance).

Also, I've read that Rise of Nation's vanilla A.I is one of the best out there.

As for map sizes, I remember those "Giant" or "Huge" type of maps in Age of Empires II / Galactic Battlegrounds are indeed giant maps, especially if the A.I takes the advantage of free terrain space to build stuff regardless of strategies and locations, as long as resources are available to build them.

#8 ThetaOrion

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Posted 16 October 2006 - 03:10 AM

For me, Rise of Nations turned out to be everything that I had been hoping or wanting the Age of Empires II to be.

I was pleased with Rise of Nations. I also enjoyed Galactic Battlegrounds, the Star Wars Age of Empires thing.

The nice thing about simple or 'aging' graphics is that I never had a lag or a crash with Rise of Nations ever, and I played it every day for a month.

Now, BFME II, it lags every game, and I have a 6800GS. I really should put the graphics on Medium instead of the default HIGH, and see what that does. BFME II crashed on me once, during a prolonged lag, with a month's worth of gameplay.

Anyway, simple graphics often makes for better gameplay simply by the fact that the simple stuff doesn't seem to crash or lag as often. There are advantages to some of the aging stuff out there.

In Rise of Nations, you can have enemy factions starting in your back door, practically, even with the huge maps, and the enemy covers the whole map because they are evenly distributed around the map. It can be a real fur ball or frag fest in that game, and you have air units, nukes, and sea units as well as the typical land units. It's a great RTS, imho.

But, I tend to prefer futuristic weapons rather than the more conventional weapons, but Rise of Nations takes your from the stone age all the way into the space age, all in the same game. Kinda cool, but no lasguns or phasers -- just guns, lots and lots of guns, and rockets, and bombs.

#9 ThetaOrion

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Posted 16 October 2006 - 03:25 AM

--

The point of all this is that even though there is good out there, it's still not as good as what Thud and Arkhan have been creating for DoW, imho.

I don't think Relic fully appreciates what Thud and Arkhan have done to improve the quality of gameplay in their products.

I don't think the user community fully appreciates what Thud and Arkhan have accomplished either. There are still people out there who are playing the "Plain Vanilla" stuff, and they are really getting shorted out of the full experience. And, Relic's laziness or refusal to beef up the AI is short-changing a lot of people, especially if a lot of these users never discover Thud's AI Skirmish Mod.

I had never even heard of the AI Mod or even considered giving it a try until my friend Aralez conviced me to give the 1.55 AI Skirmish Mod a go. How many other people out there are like that and still haven't tried the AI Mod or its offspring?

That's why I have said elsewhere that it is probably not good for Relic to rely upon Thud to do a good AI, but it seems rather clear to me that Relic is doing just that. Relic should really negotiate something with Thud and get the AI Mod incorporated into the product itself so that everyone who buys the game will get a good gameplay experience.

But, just like Thud keeps insisting that he will never do any rebalance work, I'm pretty much starting to believe that the people at Relic have decided that they are never going to put a sophisticated AI into Dawn of War or its offspring.

People just don't know how lucky they really are to have Thud and Arkhan apparently willing and even excited to go through this whole process yet again. Some people do burn out, you know.

#10 Zenoth

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Posted 16 October 2006 - 04:18 AM

The point of all this is that even though there is good out there, it's still not as good as what Thud and Arkhan have been creating for DoW, imho.


They are the best.

I don't think Relic fully appreciates what Thud and Arkhan have done to improve the quality of gameplay in their products.


Meh ... they probably don't care anyway. After all, Relic might well have great minds, great guys to work on superb projects like the Dawn of War series, but in the end they are a business, and all that is important for them is to make the money. Once they have it, they're not gonna look at the best known Mods, or the lesser ones, do a full community-creations scan and start to bitch about their accomplishments.

I don't think the user community fully appreciates what Thud and Arkhan have accomplished either.



Those who know and tried the Mod, and still complain about anything in it, if they can compare it properly with the Vanilla A.I, are ungrateful and, shall I say it, idiots. Whatever Thudo, Arkhan, Larkin and others responsible for the A.I can do is, and will always be better than anything Relic can make, until they prove us and everyone else wrong. And that isn't my opinion, it's a fact.

I had never even heard of the AI Mod or even considered giving it a try until my friend Aralez conviced me to give the 1.55 AI Skirmish Mod a go. How many other people out there are like that and still haven't tried the AI Mod or its offspring?


Sadly, a lot of people still don't know about it. Just look at the Relic's forums, and see all the complaints about the Vanilla A.I. Usually I have to step in those threads and relax them all and tell them to hang tight, because great things will happen once the team figures out what needs to be changed/modified so to incorporate their A.I in it (Dark Crusade). If they knew of the A.I Mod's existence, I'm sure they wouldn't have created the threads to start with, knowing that Relic couldn't do *beep*, nor give a Rat's arse for producing a decent A.I comparable to the Mod. They would have rather asked when the Mod would be released.

That's why I have said elsewhere that it is probably not good for Relic to rely upon Thud to do a good AI, but it seems rather clear to me that Relic is doing just that.


On this one I would disagree. Let Relic give all opportunities to them and the rest of modders in the community to let go their imagination and skills. I myself wouldn't want to willingly wait for Relic to actually pull off something of community's caliber. Just look at the Elder Scrolls series, mostly Morrowind (in quantity) and especially Oblivion (in quality), it's incredible how much skill is just waiting an opportunity to rise in the community, some people are just asking for tools, which sometimes is quite difficult to get.

But, just like Thud keeps insisting that he will never do any rebalance work, I'm pretty much starting to believe that the people at Relic have decided that they are never going to put a sophisticated AI into Dawn of War or its offspring.


I agree with Thudo and the rest of the team for that point in particular. We're all lucky enough to have them with us, players, to support the game the way they do best (making A.I). If they took time and resources to focus more on balance issues, it would probably bore them in the long run. I mean there is seven races in there. It took Blizzard three years to properly balance three races, but even in that case it's still subjective.

And Relic has a job to do. When I buy a game from them, it's because I expect them to at least fix their mess through patches (and so far they did, at least I myself think so). Which is a minimum. I wouldn't like to see our scripting Gurus burn their brains and waste their time on yet another job someone out there at Relic couldn't manage to polish or finish.

People just don't know how lucky they really are to have Thud and Arkhan apparently willing and even excited to go through this whole process yet again.


And I would never be able to thank them enough.

I wish I had at least some A.I scripting/coding skills, so I could also be part of the Mod in a meaningful way. I just want to help them, but I know I can't, other than testing their work the best I can.

I speak for myself, but it ain't exaggeration, if the A.I team tells me tomorrow they don't support Dark Crusade (pure example), I seriously un-install it and go get a refund at my local store. Without them I wouldn't have kept Winter Assault either, and I wouldn't have liked my experience with Dawn of War as much as I did.

Edited by Zenoth, 16 October 2006 - 04:22 AM.


#11 danuker

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Posted 16 October 2006 - 06:27 AM

Hi all, I would also like to chip in my 2 cents to say a big thank you to the Dawn of Skirmish dev team.

I'm been lurking around in these forums ever since I discovered the Dawn of Skirmish for WA for some time now, and I'm glad to say that each new iteration has brought more challenge and interesting twists into my skirmish games, keeping them fresh when I just want to sit down and bash some AI skulls in.

Please do get it going for DC soon! The current AI is absymal without it once you're past the initial 1 minute "rush" and I look forward to those nerve wrecking moments that you simply can't get with the current AI! :p

#12 Zenoth

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Posted 16 October 2006 - 06:33 AM

Hi there danuker ! Welcome aboard !

Fresh blood will help perpetuate our message to the desecrated :p

:p

#13 Grey

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Posted 16 October 2006 - 09:10 AM

While I have been a member for quite some time, I'm rarely here.

Now that I am, I'd also like to say thanks to the AI team.
I must admit though that I like human opponents better, but usually fall back on the AI since its not a jerk, and doesnt flame me if I win. :p
And yes, I too have noticed that the new DC AI is... crap.
But it still does ok in 2v2 - it does a combined rush quite nicely.

I wish I could contribute with some coding, but I don't know lua.
I'm already a programmer, so learning it should be possible...
What is lua similar to? Java? Javascript? Something else? Object oriented?
Any good tools available, or is it notepad all the way? :p

Anyway, good work. :p
/Lars Støttrup, Denmark

#14 thudo

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Posted 16 October 2006 - 12:14 PM

Grey - we could always use some extra help if your willing to want the challenge. If you know programming, then learning LUA is like knowing Italian to then learn French but probably simpler. Send me a PM so we can chat. The DC AI is soo very much lacking in all areas its not funny. Only the Necron AI is good whereas the Tau and others are aweful. Necrons dominate too easily anyway but thats for the balabce police. :p
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#15 section8

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Posted 16 October 2006 - 07:38 PM

Grey - we could always use some extra help if your willing to want the challenge.


Heya Thudo! Figured while we're singing praises to this project that I should chime in as well. A group of buddies and I have really had great bit of fun playing against the Skirmish AI for the last few months in WA. It's really kept DoW interesting and added to the replay value immensely. So thanks to you and everyone associated with the project, it's really fantastic.

Also, I wanted to add that we're actually a bunch of coders during the day as well, at our respective jobs. I've even had some experience modding as well, I've modded Quake2 and Unreal2003, here are my two mods (though they're getting pretty ancient now):

http://www.planetunreal.com/systemic
http://www.planetquake.com/devastation

Granted these aren't RTS games by any means, but I've messed around quite a bit with scripting. My last project was with the Torque engine, just playing around with it really, nothing fantastic, just keeping the gears turning. Anyway, I won't blather on about that stuff, but I would certainly like to offer any assistance you may need with your Skirmish Mod. Be it actual scripting or testing or whatever. My buddies and I play usually 2-4 nights out of the week 3v3s and 4v4s, so we could probably provide you with some decent input, or maybe even help you debug.

Either way, at very least I wanted to say thanks for the great work! And best of luck with it!

Edited by section8, 16 October 2006 - 07:41 PM.


#16 thudo

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Posted 16 October 2006 - 07:44 PM

Thanks Section8 - like Grey.. send me a PM and we'll chat! Need to know how much of general LUA code you understand and if you plan on buying DC? I gather you fully know how the AI plays and what the basic play mechanics in DoW/WA are? Having the game is obviously a major deal so you can playtest.
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#17 ThetaOrion

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Posted 17 October 2006 - 01:25 AM

"Necrons dominate too easily anyway but thats for the balance police."

--

You keep mentioning 'balance police'. I know you coders are fixated on the idea that AI code and Balance Code or Stat Codes are two separate files or two separate codes.

But, AI does influence gameplay feel. AI can indirectly influence balance, if you look at it from a gameplay or a feel point of view.

If you give the Tau and other factions AI enough to actually stand up and play against the Necrons, then you are indirectly changing the balance of the game and are directly changing the gameplay or the feel of the game, from the end user perspective.

It sounds like to me, from Thud's input, that just by giving the Tau an AI, the Necrons will no longer dominate so easily, and you don't have to wait for the Relic balance police to do it. You can do it just by improving the AI or connecting up the new AI functions so that all the factions besides the Necrons get to use them too. And, if you were purposefully slow to improve the Necron AI, that would also change the gameplay or the perceived 'balance' from the user's point of view, all without even touching the RGD stats or the balance files whatsoever.

In past beta's that I tried, one week the SM were unbeatable, and the next the Orks were wiping the floor, and then the next 'the Eldar Rocked.' You guys supposedly were doing nothing to change the stats or the RGD files or wherever the hardcoded balance stuff is, yet the gameplay balance or the dominant faction was changing every week simply by the fact that you guys were changing the AI every week. Every week the dominant faction would change in the AI Skirmish mod betas, and all you guys were doing was changing the way the AI performed for the different factions. You guys do indirectly influence the gameplay balance through AI changes, and you guys can indirectly rebalance the game simply by modifying the AI. I witnessed it. I know it is true.

Changing the AI has an impact on the gameplay or the feel or the end-user balance of the game. Just by changing the AI, you guys can make it so that the Necrons are no longer the dominant faction, and you can do the same for the other factions as well. So, maybe a balanced AI is something for you guys to consider or at least be aware of. You are playing with the AI anyway, so there is no reason why you can't achieve a balanced AI in the process, without having to wait for the balance police or blaming everything on Relic. Balance the AI so that the smarts of all the factions are equal and none of the factions are clearly dominant in terms of AI.

#18 LarkinVB

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Posted 17 October 2006 - 12:14 PM

As far as I know the policy of this mod is still to make the best possible AI for each race, regardless wether the races will play balanced afterwards.

You ask to cripple the necron AI for balance. This is not good and not the goal of this mod. But I guess we had the discussion a while ago, right ?

Welcome back, Theta !

Edited by LarkinVB, 17 October 2006 - 12:15 PM.


#19 Malkor

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Posted 17 October 2006 - 03:48 PM

If anything I want an unbalanced race to have the toughest AI there is. It's all the more satisfying to beat it, then.

#20 danuker

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Posted 18 October 2006 - 02:27 AM

I agree with Malkor there. The AI mod should concentrate on churning out the best skirmish opponent it can within the current framework of the game, whether or not are they any balance issues with them.

This way, you get to practice against supposedly IMBA tactics more easily and find weaknesses in them!

I do appreciate a variety of different AI build orders/tactics though.



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