67 replies to this topic

[Silent_Killa]

And I thought you had more dignity than to claim that the majority of US soldiers intentionally killed women and children. I guess we were both surprised.

A military will very rarely fire on it's own citizens. The majority of America believes in a democracy, which means the majorty of soldiers believe in democracy, if the government suddenly declared themselves fascist, I'm thinking the majority of troops wouldn't go along with it. Sure soldiers would chose sides, but what you're talking about is civil war, soldiers aren't all like minded individuals other than the fact that they want to serve their country... what they believe that country should be differs vastly.

[Drewry]

I don't want to turn this into a you said I said that you said that I said argument. But for the record, I never said that the vast majority of US soldiers openly and intentionally kill women and children.

I said "If these soldiers will kill women and children willingly", these being a portion of all the soldiers, sorry if that was not clear to you. Obviously I do not imagine the entire military opening fire on masses of innocent civilians. Even the British military prior to the war of independence was not that blood thirsty on what was then their citizens.

I agree, I don't see or forsee a military of one mind. However, I'm not sure you understand the harmful influence lies can have on people. Just look at Iraq. My point is, under the right circumstances, in the future some soldiers could very well do something VERY stupid, and it would erupt from there. I don't care who you are, if you are being attacked by a civilian, you will open fire. Defending yourself, is then your top priority.

All it takes is one person to do something very stupid. It could come from either sides. Or perhaps it could be done through a lie. A fake rebellion, a staged one. I can't tell you as I cannot see the future, but something of that sort could drive this nation into a civil war, easily.

Edited by Drewry, 20 October 2006 - 05:50 AM.

[Silent_Killa]

In that case I think I misinterpreted what you were trying to say, and I apologize if that's the case. I do agree that soldiers would defend themselves, and would also have the right to do so. Things could erupt into a mass riot from this point, and as soldiers generally don't like it when their buddies are attacked, it could get very, very bad. It wouldn't be a matter of the military siding with the government, however, it would be soldiers siding with soldiers.

What we're talking about is some sort of a fascist takeover of our country though, and remember, troops follow the general, not politicians. I figure there would be a great deal of chaos in the military as I'm sure there are plenty of crazy fascist type guys in positions of power in the US military, but at the same time there are a lot of people who are the exact opposite.

I hardly think civil war is in the best interest of those in power. People don't work during civil war and thus are much harder to exploite, it's far easier to rule from the shadows, make a profit, and live the good life.

[Drewry]

Hmm.. I think its hard to say what is in the best interest of those in power.

[Comrade Kal]

, troops follow the general, not politicians.

EXACTLY

How do you think military coups happen?

I'm not suggesting something as obtruse as that would happen in America, but without doubt some sort of cryptoo=fascist state that waves the stars and stripes would have the army's full support.

[Tom]

Citizens vs the US gov and military.

We would lose horribly if we did fight. This would cause the nation to split into factions (Like on Shattered Union) and fight over dominance.

The purpose of those citizens fighting the us gov would not be to win, it would be to SURVIVE. It would be difficult and whilst there might be a minority of citizens, it doesn't take much to crumble a country anyway. The way the west is going we might make some very powerful enemies soon, and those enemies could easily crumble our governments if our countries were also at breaking point and in chaos.

Soldiers on the other hand follow orders, there will be some who might desert the military, some might break away, some might even fight for the other side, but there will be those loyal to this system, including generals.

If a war breaks out it will be those who have everything to lose (greed) against those who have everything right to fight for. Its the hope that helps people hold on, not greed. Greed is destructive, hope is constructive. What greed destroys hope can always prevail over. Regardless of the odds, regardless of how bleak the future looks. There is always a possibility.

Whilst lies can easily mislead people, as Drewry said, this happens naturally in war.
"In time of war, The first casualty is TRUTH"

These people are not at war with the middle east, whilst they are, its all part of the war against the larger picture. They are at war with us but we just sit around and let them do it because they tell us they are here to protect us from "terrorists." I'm still wondering when people realise who the other terrorists are. Islamic Fundamentalists can be terrorists if they use terror to try get their ideals across, but these current governments are also terrorists.

People sooner or later in our countries will have to decide who is more of a threat. Islam or our governments. I'm also sure Islam might be crippled soon if a major war breaks out in the middle east.

It still leads to one truth of cycles that humanity naturally does to renew itself and rid itself of corrupt from time to time:

[CodeCat]

[Tom]

I'm amazed the media finally showed something like that, i'm also amazed it was allowed as well. About time.

[MSpencer]

Oh PLEASE. Do you really think that the second someone says something controversial they're shot?

[Airman]

That guy sounds like one of those "Alien abductees" accusing our government of bad things. I can't srgue with the past, but I know that US citizens WILL NOT be pulled off the streets for "Not being a citizen". Obviously, you would be one if you have records here and a social security number. That guy must not know what he is saying...

Plus, Bush is a good president, and probably was forced to sign it. But otherwise, the stuff that guy says is total crap.

[MSpencer]

He knows what he's talking about, you don't.
This bill has indefinitely suspended habeas corpus for every single person in and outside the United States, even if they don't fall under our jurisdiction. At any given time, any US citizen or non-US citizen may be classified as an enemy combatant and may be arrested simply on suspicion of terrorism. They can then be sent out of the country to an internment camp baking in the hot sun in a cage without a fair trial or even the right to face their accusers, or the right to petition for their own release. Habeas corpus was guaranteed by the Magna Carta, and is protected by the Bill of Rights, and as a result this law is clearly unconstitutional, but it is very unlikely that it will be swatted down in judicial review by the Supreme Court.
You obviously know nothing of the law or government, so it's pointless to try and illustrate this point to you. Simply, you can be arrested, by the FBI, by the military, or by any governmental agency, simply upon decree by the President or Secretary of Defense or their appointees, where you will then be sent to Guantanamo Bay in Cuba, where you will be denied a fair and impartial trial, if they ever get around to it. If they don't, you'll spend the rest of your life in a cell being tortured, under or overfed, and not allowed to bathe.

[Drewry]

Spence is correct, I do not think a single person here could argue with that, with any sense at all in their head.

[Silent_Killa]

Only approach the think tank if capable of thinking

Things like this have happened through out American history, in 20 years we'll all look back on it as a mistake, and wish that we hadn't done it. I see a democrat in power next term, and most likely a fairly liberal one at that, people are fed up, it's time for the political pendulum to swing back the other way. It is good that people are making a big deal about this, however, otherwise we truly would slide into a fascist state.

I'm not suggesting something as obtruse as that would happen in America, but without doubt some sort of cryptoo=fascist state that waves the stars and stripes would have the army's full support.

You do realize that there's more than one general, right? Many Generals may be conservatives, but I assure you that the majority of them are very anti-fascist. As a matter of fact, if you look at those currently pushing us towards fascism, you will find that they are all draft dodgers.

[Pyth]

Well it's official. I'm very scared of this... These US laws about arresting people and torture, al lthat sort of thing. Off to Switzerland...

No really. This is very, very, VERY freaky. ANyone have any statements about this that are true and make it seem like we AREN'T going into the depths of Nazi German Hell?

[Airman]

Hey, be a good citizen and you won't be suspected.

[Pyth]

And how do you define that? "Not killing people"? Or "Worships God and waves around the flag?"

Absolute power corrupts absolutely!

Edited by Pyth, 21 October 2006 - 08:44 PM.

[chemical ali]

Hey, be a good citizen and you won't be suspected.

The thing is, when you have a bill like this passed, the government could make a whole load of lists on what is bad.

You can not define 'Good'.

And to complete Pyths excellent saying from Lord Acton, 'Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Great men are almost always bad men.'

[MSpencer]

Just wait until you're an unlawful enemy combatant if you vote for the Democratic Party.
Democracy is dead.

[Drewry]

Democracy is alive as long as the people will it. The founding fathers knew that a day like this would come. It is the responsibility of us as citizens to act.

When, in the Course of human Events, it becomes necessary for one People to dissolve the Political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume, among the Powers of the Earth, the separate and equal Station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent Respect to the Opinions of Mankind requires that they should declare the Causes which impel them to the Separation.

That to secure these Rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just Powers from the Consent of the Governed, that whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these Ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its Foundation on such Principles, and organizing its Powers in such Form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

[Silent_Killa]

You're all fucking drama queens, the "elite" have kept America the same for this long for a reason. They're happily on top of society while the rest of us toil beneath. This happens every so often, anybody remember when Truman tried to sieze the steel industry? When Japanese-American citizens were sent to internment camps? How about good 'ol McCarthy? There will be no fascist takeover of America because it is not in the best interest of those who run our country.