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Thoughts on resource limits.


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#1 Guest_Manic_*

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Posted 19 October 2006 - 05:34 AM

Hello all, I'm a bit of a newbie, but... I had a thought on resources.
1. Do away with resource cost. Every unit has a capacity cost of zero. (Easily accomplished.)
2. Each individual soldier(excepting heroes) carries a cost per minute. (unsure if this would even be possible, which is why I'm posting my thoughts here) This emphasises keeping your cash flow running smoothly, to support your army.
Example:
Standard archers carry with it an inherent per-minute cost of one gold. Elite archers would carry an inherent cost of 2 gold per minute. (or half-minute, I haven't worked out the benifit/balance ratios yet) Therefore, you could build a massive army, IF you have the economic infrastructure to back it up. If you build an army which has a greater requirement than you can provide, your coffers simply run dry. You'd be financially crippled, and would be unable to upgrade your troops properly. At all. Which would leave you vulnerable to someone who knew how to run thier budget properly.

If this IS theoretically possible, I'll begin work immediately. :lol:

#2 Bart

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Posted 19 October 2006 - 07:57 AM

making units cost money per minute is possible i think, but i wonder what happens when the money reaches zero. i don't think there's a way to kill the units or something
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#3 Guest_Manic_*

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Posted 19 October 2006 - 03:17 PM

Wouldn't really need to be a way to kill them off, I suppose... though the thought had crossed my mind as well. Troops probably wouldn't walk off the battlefield if they didn't get paid, not in a situation like this... but it would stunt the ability to bring more troops on the field, or upgrade them. (the upgrades being the decision-maker in BFME2)

#4 Lauri

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Posted 19 October 2006 - 03:54 PM

well, if you can't upgrade them, and they don't die, and if thier free, you can make MANY, and gain a massive army.

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#5 morgoth946

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Posted 19 October 2006 - 03:56 PM

I would rather to change the gold to food instead.
I think that it's possible to do, I'm not very sure though..
It'd be a nightmare to balance :lol:

Edited by morgoth946, 19 October 2006 - 03:58 PM.

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#6 Bart

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Posted 19 October 2006 - 04:31 PM

so you're going to build castles and catapult made of food? :lol:

well, if you can't upgrade them, and they don't die, and if thier free, you can make MANY, and gain a massive army.


then don't make them free, give them a small initial cost
btw, you (manic) will have to make it so that e.g. 1 gold is 3 times/second deducted from the total, not 3 gold 1 time/second (because for expensive units this might leave you with e.g. 10 spare gold, which allows you to buy a new unit when you can't)
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#7 Solinx

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Posted 19 October 2006 - 05:17 PM

(...)if they didn't get paid(...) it would stunt the ability to bring more troops on the field, or upgrade them. (the upgrades being the decision-maker in BFME2)

He has already considered a stop to production, as well as a stop to upgrading. Upgrading is logical, as it would cost money, but the production stop is less logical, as it requires nothing (from his idea) and needs to be halted in another way.

Instead of making it harder on yourself, I'd just make units cost a little bit of cash, as a first payment to the unit and to cover the costs of the starting equipement.

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#8 Manic

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Posted 19 October 2006 - 07:04 PM

(...)if they didn't get paid(...) it would stunt the ability to bring more troops on the field, or upgrade them. (the upgrades being the decision-maker in BFME2)

He has already considered a stop to production, as well as a stop to upgrading. Upgrading is logical, as it would cost money, but the production stop is less logical, as it requires nothing (from his idea) and needs to be halted in another way.

Instead of making it harder on yourself, I'd just make units cost a little bit of cash, as a first payment to the unit and to cover the costs of the starting equipement.

Solinx

Which is exactly what I was considering... What I originally meant was setting the CommandPoints to "0" for each horde, and leaving the initial financial cost as-is. This would enable one to still build a massive army, but you would have to have a massive financial infrastructure to support and/or expand it. This would promote expansion, as well. So, as it were, production would be halted - if you wipe out the source of income.
edit- I suppose this would also involve increasing the influx of gold from resource points, but that can be worked out later. (once I figure out how to get the thing working in the first place)
edit2- From what I can best figure, this would involve adding a behavior to the object... but I haven't found anything like it in the ini's to base from. Anyone have any suggestions on where to look?

Edited by Manic, 19 October 2006 - 07:34 PM.


#9 thelemur

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Posted 19 October 2006 - 07:57 PM

i dont think its too wise to eliminate the command point cost. this will produce a lot of lag cause you wont want to stop producing units until every inch of the map is covered by them.plus, its been done before,and it doesnt seem to be a very popular thing. if you were to do this though, you would have to edit some coding so that the individual units wouldnt cost you any cps when they were made.
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#10 Fingulfin

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Posted 19 October 2006 - 09:24 PM

Read his post. If you don't have the money, you don't have the units. As for lag: Who cares? If it lags, he can fix it one way or another ;)
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#11 Manic

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Posted 20 October 2006 - 03:12 AM

Quite true. Plus, one could balance it out so the troop-to-farm ratio was roughly the same... Basically, the same limits, just more realistic... plus, in order to have an army large enough to lag the game, you'd need farms in such quantity that it'd be nearly impossible to defend them all. Raiding parties would be more important, and unit rushes far less so.

#12 Solinx

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Posted 20 October 2006 - 12:07 PM

In fact, as the farms are dependand on the area available to them on their money output, you will be able to make a perfect balance. It really doesn't matter who owns how many farms, there is a maximum area size that can be covered by farms, which means there is a limit to the income.

Naturally, you'd have to remove the income through the Fortresses, as that would break the balance. Also, you have to keep in mind that the total area = map size, which means that the bigger the map, the more units can be sustained.

What also counts is that a player can recruite more forces than he can sustain, as long as his treasury isn't depleted yet.

There are likely some more things to keep in mind while implenting this, so before doing the code, I'd take the time to think about what the result has to be. After that, you can look if there is any code get there or at least near enough.

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#13 Manic

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Posted 21 October 2006 - 05:41 AM

In fact, as the farms are dependand on the area available to them on their money output, you will be able to make a perfect balance. It really doesn't matter who owns how many farms, there is a maximum area size that can be covered by farms, which means there is a limit to the income.

Very true.

Naturally, you'd have to remove the income through the Fortresses, as that would break the balance. Also, you have to keep in mind that the total area = map size, which means that the bigger the map, the more units can be sustained.

I don't think that'd really be needed, as fortresses are generally considered to be created to support troops. Perhaps an increase in cost.

What also counts is that a player can recruite more forces than he can sustain, as long as his treasury isn't depleted yet.

This is also true. That's definitely one that would require careful balance.

There are likely some more things to keep in mind while implenting this, so before doing the code, I'd take the time to think about what the result has to be. After that, you can look if there is any code get there or at least near enough.

Solinx

I'd feel more comfortable balancing it out if I knew it was even possible, before spending hours rebalancing...

Edited by Manic, 21 October 2006 - 05:42 AM.


#14 Fingulfin

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Posted 21 October 2006 - 07:42 AM

Quick Question: Exactly how (code wise) are you going to get units to cost money per time elapsed? Quick question :sleep:
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#15 Lord Of Gifts

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Posted 22 October 2006 - 01:42 AM

As far as I can tell, it needs to be scripted. I've tried implementing something just like this in the past, but couldn't get it to work via code.

#16 Fingulfin

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Posted 22 October 2006 - 06:47 AM

Ahhh... Then in my sight you have two options:You can make a map playable Online Via Map.ini
You can make a set of scripts and export them to every map

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#17 Manic

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Posted 22 October 2006 - 10:23 AM

Quick Question: Exactly how (code wise) are you going to get units to cost money per time elapsed? Quick question :thumbsupsmiley:

That was my question in the first place. :grin: I was hoping to impliment it with a behavior... if that isn't possible, then it might as well not be done... (third party map compatibility is a consideration here)

#18 Bart

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Posted 22 October 2006 - 10:55 AM

You can make a set of scripts and export them to every map

since a long time i have had the idea to put other kinds of script in the music scripts, but haven't gotten around to trying it yet
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#19 Fingulfin

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Posted 23 October 2006 - 06:38 AM

In "Wars of Arda" me and Argolis are working on a set of scripts that we can export to every map in case some of our Top-Secret Experimental coding doesnt work :thumbsupsmiley:

Speaking of that, next time I catch you on MSN there is something I would like to discuss with 2Play...
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#20 Kelso

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Posted 24 October 2006 - 05:41 AM

You can try using the AutoDeposit behavior with a negative value but I don't think it'll work. And then you'd also have little -$$'s flying up from all your units every 30 seconds.

Good idea, and something that was possible and done frequently in past EA titles (TS and RA2) but it gets sloppy on SAGE.
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