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Helm's Deep


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#1 Guest_Ich_*

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Posted 02 November 2006 - 03:26 PM

Hello.
I would find it better if you would add some more Elves to the reinforcements
in Helm's Deep. I think four battailons are not enough. In the film, Haldir arrives with
400 men(OK, you can't give the player 400 Elves).

Maybe, you can delete the "Build Elvenwarrior" function of the Archery Range and give
the player more Elves instead.

#2 Elvenlord

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Posted 02 November 2006 - 09:29 PM

I think he increased it, not sure though, I'm almost at helm's deep, I'll see

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#3 Celeglin

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Posted 02 November 2006 - 11:27 PM

Hello.
I would find it better if you would add some more Elves to the reinforcements
in Helm's Deep. I think four battailons are not enough. In the film, Haldir arrives with
400 men(OK, you can't give the player 400 Elves).

Maybe, you can delete the "Build Elvenwarrior" function of the Archery Range and give
the player more Elves instead.

This is certainly worth considering, seeing as I want to remove the Elves from the Rohan Archery Range anyway. A very good idea! Thanks for suggesting it!

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#4 Elvenlord

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Posted 03 November 2006 - 03:11 AM

That would be alot better, because elves couldn't just pop out of the hornburg or anything :dry:

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#5 Feanîmriel

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Posted 04 November 2006 - 05:00 PM

It would also fit more on the film
AND the faction Rohan would get a more human character
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#6 Guest_Guest_*

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Posted 04 November 2006 - 05:11 PM

Having just played the Helms Deep campaign on hard difficulty, it 's still pitifully difficult :(.

I'd suggest adding evil lots more ballistas from the start, and also many more crossbowmen with flaming arrows. The crossbowmen would prove a large threat against elves on the walls, and the ballista would force you to do rohirrim sorties to take them out.

Ecthelion

#7 Elvenlord

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Posted 04 November 2006 - 06:09 PM

Really? I'll have to try it :)

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#8 Nazgul Lord

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Posted 05 November 2006 - 07:35 PM

Please, don't add more Ballistas! I think they're a bit unfair on this map, since you can't send units out to destroy them until most of the attack wave is destroyed (the large number of uruks would decimate your units). All the while, the ballistas would pound the heck out of your troops, and they're so powerful they could kill a bunch of units in one hit. Plus, they can destroy the Deeping Wall themselves, and more would make it more likely. Oh, and one more change I'd like to see, move the main gate foward alittle. Right now, when a battering ram gets there to attack, my units have trouble firing at it because it's practically under their feet.
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#9 Ecthelion

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Posted 05 November 2006 - 08:05 PM

Nazgul Lord, the point I was trying to make is that ballistas add strategy since they can;t easily be taken out. Generally to remove the ballistas, charging with all heroes and some elven warriors will distract the wave surrounding theballista, then rohirrim take the ballista out. The battering rams at the front should maybe be made fire retardand of thats possible, as a couple of battalions of archers with fire arrows can take them out in 2 volleys.

Would it be possible to make the pikemen attack units on the wall with their pike as that would be pretty cool. What would be most useful though would be a Rohan unit with a shield, so as to make it so you don;t have to have Elven warriors on the walls once the orks scale their ladders.

Ecthelion

#10 Celeglin

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Posted 05 November 2006 - 08:28 PM

Please, don't add more Ballistas!

Don't worry, I won't. As much as Ecthelion has a good point concerning them, I personally hate the damn things (along with catapults and the Balrog, they're the most annoying things in the game for me).

Oh, and one more change I'd like to see, move the main gate foward alittle. Right now, when a battering ram gets there to attack, my units have trouble firing at it because it's practically under their feet.

I can't promise anything, but I'll see what I can do.

The battering rams at the front should maybe be made fire retardand of thats possible, as a couple of battalions of archers with fire arrows can take them out in 2 volleys.

I'll increase their resistance to pierce and fire damage, but not so much that it takes 4-5 batts of Elves to take one out before the gate is done.

Would it be possible to make the pikemen attack units on the wall with their pike as that would be pretty cool.

It would indeed be cool, but I don't see how I could do it.

What would be most useful though would be a Rohan unit with a shield, so as to make it so you don;t have to have Elven warriors on the walls once the orks scale their ladders.

True... but that would mean making a new unit... which would mean more balance work... I have half a mind to rework the Rohan faction so those damned peasants are the single source of melee infantry...

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#11 Nazgul Lord

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Posted 05 November 2006 - 08:36 PM

I agree with ya about the Balrog, catapults, and ballistas; they are anoying. As for Rohan infantry, I can see EA's thought behind adding them - they did fight at Helm's Deep, but from a gameplay perspective, it just doesn't make sense to have them as Rohan's only melee infantry. Rohan needs a decent infantry force; pikeman will slaughter their cavalry, and if the opponent spams pikeman (which a smart player would do when facing Rohan), they'll massacre even drafted peasants, leaving you just your heroes as melee infantry. Royal Guard swordsmen/spearmen would be a good fix.
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#12 Guest_Enerdhil_*

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Posted 05 November 2006 - 09:18 PM

Rohan had a number of skilled, well equipped swordsmen at Helm's Deep who stuck with Theoden. Royal Guards is a fairly lame name though, perhaps Eorlingas would be better. Maybe the ability to mount could be be purchased or gained at rank 2 for them. It would be appropriate to have a cap on how many battalions of them are available though. I just think it's unfair on Rohan to limit them to cavalry charges because they were good enough on foot as well.

I finished Helm's Deep a few days ago, I'm actually on to Minas Tirith at the moment (on ultra-low graphics it doesn't lag.) Helm's Deep is good as it stands but can be handled quite comfortably providing you take the siege equipment out as a matter of priority.

The ballistas only seemed to come later on. My method of dealing with them was Gimli and postern gates. Just get him to charge out and jump on them then charge back in to a well. He can survive the punishment whereas cavalry probably wouldn't.

It's also essential to ensure that everyone has fire arrows and that you have the very far left of the wall quite heavily manned with a hero there too. They seem to send a lot of ladders that way. They did get quite large numbers onto the wall at one point, you've just got to focus on getting the ladders down and then taking the walls back. The beserkers do a great job though, they really did help prepare the way in your version of Helm's Deep. One of my favourite units in the game :).

Minas Tirith on the other hand is posing me some problems. Those towers are seriously hard to put down. Arrows barely scratch them and the siege engines only hit them when they are stationary so you can't soften them up on their way in too easily. It's also impossible to prevent Grond breaking down the gate now too. I'm going to try a different tactic and have a reserve of Tower Guard & Ranger battalions ready for when the gate breaks to try and take some of the Trolls down in the initial charge. Might take Boromir and Gandalf off the walls when I see Grond to provide additional support there too. It's much more challenging, much more impressive and much more like the films now though. You've done some excellent works there and given the game a second wind for me.

I would suggest a few changes in regards to Glorinfdel though. I think a leadership bonus would be appropriate for him, as he did act as the commander of Rivendell's armies when Angmar was destroyed and he was a great commander in the first age too. I'd also consider making him a bit faster or increasing his capacity to kill in some way. It's just that, relative to the other heroes, he doesn't justify his cost at the moment and he doesn't quite live up to his name in my opinion. He looks fantastic though and some of his abilities are excellent.

Thanks for all the hard work, you've done a really good job of it thus far.

#13 Elvenlord

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Posted 05 November 2006 - 11:07 PM

I just played Helm's Deep and it was really fun!
Though they didn't destroy the wall, they did break through the gate, and I had to retreat my forces on the wall to help out because there was so many uruk-hai :)

Maybe you should add more bombs, they didn't even get clsoe to destroying my wall and I didn't see any on the first couple attacks, so maybe you could add them there? :thumbsupsmiley:

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#14 Celeglin

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Posted 05 November 2006 - 11:30 PM

Rohan had a number of skilled, well equipped swordsmen at Helm's Deep who stuck with Theoden. Royal Guards is a fairly lame name though, perhaps Eorlingas would be better. Maybe the ability to mount could be be purchased or gained at rank 2 for them. It would be appropriate to have a cap on how many battalions of them are available though. I just think it's unfair on Rohan to limit them to cavalry charges because they were good enough on foot as well.

Eorlingas sounds good to me... I was thinking of calling them Helmingas, but RA beat me to it. I won't give them a mount ability as that is an icredibly difficult and finicky thing to get a battalion to toggle mount. I'm also thinking of giving them spears, as Rohan will be lacking anti-cavalry with the loss of their Elves.

Minas Tirith on the other hand is posing me some problems. Those towers are seriously hard to put down. Arrows barely scratch them and the siege engines only hit them when they are stationary so you can't soften them up on their way in too easily.

Actually, your trebuchets should be able to hit them quite a bit while moving... Odd, they always do for me.

It's also impossible to prevent Grond breaking down the gate now too. I'm going to try a different tactic and have a reserve of Tower Guard & Ranger battalions ready for when the gate breaks to try and take some of the Trolls down in the initial charge. Might take Boromir and Gandalf off the walls when I see Grond to provide additional support there too.

Yip, it was my intention to make Grond unstoppable this time around. And your idea of moving Tower Guard, Rangers, and heroes behind the gate is exactly what I do while playing.

It's much more challenging, much more impressive and much more like the films now though. You've done some excellent works there and given the game a second wind for me.

You are very, very welcome, and thank you so very, very much.

I would suggest a few changes in regards to Glorinfdel though. I think a leadership bonus would be appropriate for him, as he did act as the commander of Rivendell's armies when Angmar was destroyed and he was a great commander in the first age too. I'd also consider making him a bit faster or increasing his capacity to kill in some way. It's just that, relative to the other heroes, he doesn't justify his cost at the moment and he doesn't quite live up to his name in my opinion. He looks fantastic though and some of his abilities are excellent.

Leadership... It would take away from the specialty I've set out for him, but it certainly would make sense with his character. And the cavalry units currently only receive leadership from Elrond and Galadriel, so it's not like it would be overpowering. We'll see.
As for his capacity to kill. I had him as having the highest damage output of any Elven hero (bar Galadriel)... But that seems to have changed somewhere down the line with my balancing of Elrond and Celeborn... Perhaps I could give him a small radius for his attacks, so he does damage to multiple enemies? I'd like to hear some thoughts on this, but please respond in the Beta Thread if you wish.

Maybe you should add more bombs, they didn't even get clsoe to destroying my wall and I didn't see any on the first couple attacks, so maybe you could add them there? :)

I think what I'll do is add more enemy infantry to add more chaos to the battle. The time I lost the Deeping Wall was when I just couldn't even find the mines until it was too late... Much like what happened in the book and movie... We'll see.

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#15 Elvenlord

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Posted 05 November 2006 - 11:33 PM

Yeah, when I was playing it they sent the bombs first with everyone behind, so that might be it :)

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#16 Guest_Enerdhil_*

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Posted 06 November 2006 - 12:46 AM

I've managed to finish Minas Tirith. I found that the summon elves power was handy early on because as soon as you use all the orcs converge on them. I just put them right by the gate in three lines and watched the orcs get funnelled in and butchered. Towards the end I managed to get things fairly stable and for the last 5-10 mins I could have held out like that indefinitely, the pressure was off which isn't ideal.

The evil men reinforcements never actually attacked the city too, they just kind of stood around, in the end I had to go after them. An army of mumakils with archers on their backs providing support for the orcs and towers at the walls would have added to Mordor's attack dynamic. Mumakil make great weapon platforms.

Also, when Aragorn arrived with the army of the dead, the attack had been stopped and we were taking out one of the two camps. Aragorn didn't actually get a kill. Seems kind of like a waste. The army of the dead should be your salvation, but they pretty much had nothing to do because they came so late on.

Overall though, lots of fun and tense most of the way through. You really have to work hard, particularly midway through and keep an eye on practically everything.

#17 Celeglin

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Posted 06 November 2006 - 12:54 AM

The evil men reinforcements never actually attacked the city too, they just kind of stood around, in the end I had to go after them.

Depends on which you're talking about... I know the large swarms that follow Grond and the Mumakil go straight for the gate... There are also some who wait around guarding against the Rohirrim and Aragorn.

An army of mumakils with archers on their backs providing support for the orcs and towers at the walls would have added to Mordor's attack dynamic. Mumakil make great weapon platforms.

Yes, I definitely need to get them doing something other than just wait around... I'll try have some stampede straight for the main gates in a long line..

Also, when Aragorn arrived with the army of the dead, the attack had been stopped and we were taking out one of the two camps. Aragorn didn't actually get a kill. Seems kind of like a waste. The army of the dead should be your salvation, but they pretty much had nothing to do because they came so late on.

As I said in the ReadMe, I need to get Aragorn to arrive quite a lot earlier.

Overall though, lots of fun and tense most of the way through. You really have to work hard, particularly midway through and keep an eye on practically everything.

Very good to hear! Thanks for the comments and compliments! Hope you have fun with the Mirkwood mission next (even though it's still not working 100%).

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#18 Elvenlord

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Posted 06 November 2006 - 01:06 AM

Man, you guys really go through the campgain quickly :) :thumbsupsmiley:

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#19 Celeglin

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Posted 06 November 2006 - 01:39 AM

Man, you guys really go through the campgain quickly :) :thumbsupsmiley:

I think my fastest is the first Eomer mission: I can beat that in under two minutes. I had to do it many times before I finally remembered to make a save just before Lothlorien for testing purposes.

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#20 Nazgul Lord

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Posted 06 November 2006 - 02:04 AM

I don't suppose you could take away Grond's invulnerability? Once the gate is gone, it'd be extremely tough to defend against the attack. I haven't played the mission yet though. One option would be to make the Grond super tough; make so you'd have to make all units in the area attack it, and have Gandalf fire off his spells as mush as possible in order to stop it from breaking down the gates. And even then, the gates should be one hit from destruction, so if a troll or mumak or battering ram got there, they'd be done for.
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