26 replies to this topic

[ArkhanTheBlack]

Next one!

- Necron Lord got an emergency teleport.

- Fixed a bug in the allied support section.

- Tomb spyders only built if the AI has a decent army size (Except the tier 2 one)

- Improved gathering behaviour

- Better threat on path handling for engineers

AI trace is activated in case if anyone gets a crash or an execution error. Therefore some files 100xaitrace.txt are written on C:\. You should delete them regularly when they get too big.
If anyone gets a crash or execution/fatal AI error then check all files for the two last lines...

AI Difficulty Setting
2

If those lines are missing you've found the guilty AITrace file. In this case just post the last 50 - 100 lines.

But maybe we are lucky and nobody gets an error...

[thudo]

Sending to site in under 2 hours.. Massive thanks to Arkhan!!! Superb work as always!!

[ArkhanTheBlack]

I've sent you an update for the beta 3 with the necron fixes (braindead & nightbringer problem). Therefore check your E-Mail...

[thudo]

Done! SENT UP to site for the testers!

Up for testing! Necrons are officially fixed thanks to the fantastic work of Arkhan! I tested em on a massively under-resourced map and they played like themselves. Problem is: Necrons on such maps cannot gain pop caps since they need strats to do so so not sure if Relic thought of that. :( Still.. their presence in the 3vs3 game won them the championship whereas they would have otherwise not.

Bravo Arkhan!!!

Btw.. we can keep the IG's Commissar's Execute script the same.. there is no need to change it as it works as it should.. read:

Execute
Allows you to execute one of your own units.
Executing a unit frightens nearby units into fighting harder.
Nearby units will double their firing rate.

This is from the game. Its meant to be used often and without prejudice! We use it when the squad has greater than 7 troops so thats optimal!

[Malkor]

Okay, I was quite pleased to see the Necrons building normally in Rhean Jungle in a 4v4 insane, but as soon as one of their bases came under fire, they all went braindead again, even after that ally was killed and they were left alone for a bit. Only ressurecting Necron Lord and suiciding workers.

Speaking of suiciding workers, the Necrons have reached new hieghts in running their scarabs through my towers and speeders. Is this a bug or was it overlooked? The other races SOMETIMES suicide their workers, but not nearly as often as the Necrons do.

Additionally, the necron that was under attack himself also went kinda braindead. He mostly spammed workers instead of getting warriors or anything else otherwise useful. The same thing happened when another one of the Necron bases came under attack - two monoliths that usually build nothing but workers during the attack.


If I were to make a guess I'd say their ally support stuff is being weird.

Edited by Malkor, 15 November 2006 - 04:30 AM.

[dctrjons]

Execute
Allows you to execute one of your own units.
Executing a unit frightens nearby units into fighting harder.
Nearby units will double their firing rate.

This is from the game. Its meant to be used often and without prejudice! We use it when the squad has greater than 7 troops so thats optimal!

Understanding it's a game---

This is one of those things in this game that gives it the character I love. It's war baby.

IG are MY troops, I even have a snazzy CCCP theme. But I don't use this ability unless I need it. Even though it is an extremely cheap ability, one unit who is cheap and fast to replace. AND I not too long discovered it is true area effect...not squad only (hence one guy out of 50 is also negligable).
I just get this slight pang of guilt using it on near full morale troops...even though doing so is the wiser choice.

So yeah execute away, just wish I had the same guts to do so : )

[ThetaOrion]

It sounds like from Malkor's recent report that it's going to take a bit more time for Arkhan and Thud to sort through or work through all the Necron weirdness, but I kind of predicted that it would take a bit of time.

It's just good to know that they are on the case. Soon, the 'braindead' Necron attackees will be fixed up and working right too, knowing Arkhan as we all do.

Edited by ThetaOrion, 15 November 2006 - 05:18 AM.

[Malkor]

The necrons perform very well in FFA's, now. Without any allies to cause problems, they are teching and fighting, although it will take time to bring them up to par with the other races in these matchups. (They still don't stand a chance against those dreads/speeders when they show up).

[thudo]

I was also thinking about the Firewarrior's ShieldDrone ability. Currently its not working as desired..

I've set it to:

if (self.squad_ai:WasRecentlyHurt() or self.squad_ai:GetHealthPercentage() < 0.4) then
		Ability.DoAbility( self.squad_ai, Firewarrior.shield, Ability.PredicateFilters.IsInCombat )

. Doing this, the AI engages the shield more often although I'll have to play with using either WasRecentlyHurt or a HealthValue. Thoughts? RecentlyHurt will cause the ability to be used more often but when the squad is hit hard.

[LarkinVB]

Replacing AND with OR makes the check for self.squad_ai:GetHealthPercentage() < 0.4 useless. I suggest keeping the AND and raising the health limit to 0.8

Just watched my first b3 battle tau vs necron. Good job guys but of course there were some problems.

1. Both tau and necron builders were constantly on suicide missions mid to endgame. Didn't we fix this problem Arkhan ? Seems it is back again.

2. Tau only build a single early capper squad. After that it did build commander. This made them much slower in getting map control than necron.

3. Necron lord was utterly confused/useless the whole battle. Died a thousand times without achieving nothing. The only thing he managed was an early skirmish with the tau commander. Was also trapped in this back and forth move loop often. His ineffectivness did lead to necron destruction.

4. Tau commander was using his snare traps uneffectivly. (Throwing behind approaching units ...)

5. Necron lost big fight against tau and failed to rebuild warriors as fast as he could. They should replentish warriors more often.

6. AI should try to mix attack forces with detectors as necrons lost in 5. because they couldn't fight all enemies.

7. Scarabs were waiting in front of a fortified tau LP just getting shot to pieces.

Replay available.

Edited by LarkinVB, 15 November 2006 - 12:19 PM.

[Zenoth]

Right now I am watching a replay of a game I just played, and taking notes of it for my report, but right now I'd like to say that there is a potentially huge bug with the Orks. I say potentially because it might just be related to the map, but if not ... then there is something up for sure. The map is Testing Ground (3 Vs 3). Basically they did nothing until I decided to attack them. Almost as if they had no A.I. They built a few things, and then Requisition and Power accumulated up to the 2000+ I believe (at least 10 minutes of standing by).

Then I decided to see what was up, since I gathered my forces and awaited a potential early rush from them, or the Necrons. Nothing happened, and I saw that not much happened either on the map against my allies ... so I went to the Ork base only to see that I received no warm welcome. Even the Big Mek was trained right when I first hit one of their structure. As if my assault suddenly put them out of stasis and resumed their early game priorities.

I'll be sure to leave the replay. It's very strange, first time I ever observe something like that.

Edit: About the Big Mek, never mind, he was trained before, I forgot, however it was pretty much the only forces they trained and sent out, they "resumed" their things when I started to attack them.

Oh and on a side note, there's something up with the Necrons as well, especially the Necron Lord, they were all confused, and constantly went back and forth between locations, never attacking bases nor entering enemy territory, and only attack if enemies were seen on their path.

More on the report, I'll try to take some pictures and write down more details.

Edited by Zenoth, 15 November 2006 - 10:51 AM.

[ThetaOrion]

I have noticed that same behavior in the DC Plain Vanilla AI as well.

The AI factions build nothing for forever, yet, if I attack them and somehow fail to destroy them, when I finally get back to them, they have suddenly built a huge base and are real trouble.

It's as if they needed to be attacked in order to start building, or needed to be attacked to get out of some do-nothing loop they were stuck in.

The indecisiveness of the AI's Necron Lord has also been noticed. And, I think the only NL special ability that I have ever remembered seeing the Necron Lord do is that Solar Pulse thing.

The AI in Dark Crusade is a real disappointment at times, and it only makes sense that the AI Mod would inherit some of that at first, but hopefully over time will be fixed up or remedied as time allows.

[Zenoth]

Map: Testing Ground
Difficulty: Hard
Resources Sharing: Off
Resources Rate: Standard
Players: SM, Eldar & Tau -Vs- Necron, Orks & Chaos
Winners: Me and my allies

Some pictures ..

That's for early game details mostly.

º Necron Lord built, along with one Necron Warrior squad


º Then the back and forth/confused behavior starts, there, where they are on the picture, but also all around their own territory and their allies's territory as well, but never venture completely into enemy territory


º This one is strange, a squad of 8 Necron Warriors, however one of them is completely separated from the group, sometimes even walking in completely different directions than the 7 others and vise versa, here are 7 of them


And here the 8th Warrior of the squad in question


Might not be a "bug" per se, but I don't see why that happened, I might have missed the spawn of one of them during the reinforcement process but I haven't noticed how they got separated. Just something strange I wanted to point out at.

º Here the Necron Lord attacks an un-built/finished Tau LP on its "back and forth path" because it was on its way


And then suddenly runs away and resume its confused scouting


º Here the Ork's Big Mek approaches my western LP, and starts engaging my forces, only to die during the fight, never to get trained again until the moment when I decide to attack them a couple of minutes later


º Shortly after the Orks engaged me there, the Necron Lord teleported itself into the mêlée and fought against my forces for a very short period, a few seconds, and then went backtrack where it teleported from, and then resumed its back and forth behavior further north and west into his own territory, along with a few other Necron units that also "assisted" him during the fight for the same period, and then also went backtrack with it (such as a squad of NW and at least one Wraith)




Such behavior was seen everywhere he and any other Necron forces where. Always avoiding fights, keeping their distances, and sometimes engaging enemies for a few seconds only to turn their backs and go back into their territory, never truly helping the Orks nor even the Chaos (their other ally).

Example here of them avoiding combat even though they started it all



Another example here, back and forth within a short space, around a Chaos LP



º That's the Ork base, the whole base, by around 8 minutes


º Shoota Boys, a single squad, consisting of the complete Ork army by around 9 minutes


º The last of the Shoota Boys die a few seconds later by one of my ally's LP, which starts the "standing by" behavior for the Orks, they do absolutely no actions by that very moment



º This is the moment when I decided to attack the Orks, it shows the very fist shots fired at them


º Right when I start that assault, they suddenly resume everything






º Strangely enough, during the assault against the Orks, the Necrons teleport a squad of Flayed Ones, and also suddenly trains a Tomb Spyder, strange coincidence if so


Alright, all these points I noticed them between the beginning and middle-game, however the Necrons were pretty confused for the whole match, and the Orks ... well, they didn't last long.

As long as the Tau and the Eldar (my allies) were concerned, I believe it was alright, they were doing their things as they should, scouting territory, venturing into enemy territory, capping LP's and CL's, as well as fighting against the Chaos. Also, the Chaos were also doing fine from what I've seen. It's really just the Orks (surprisingly) and the Necrons. The Tau, Eldar and Chaos all spent their resources when possible. And despite the confused behavior from the Necrons I noticed that they still spent their resources as well, even though they never really made an "army". As far as resources accumulation goes and stalling behavior goes then the Orks are the concerned ones.

Overall ... very strange match.

If all of the above can be explained simply by the fact that the map would be responsible for all the strange things I saw then, oh well I must have wasted my time. Otherwise then, there's definitely something up. Yes ? No ? I'll surely need comments about all this.

Edit: I just added the replay.

Edited by Zenoth, 15 November 2006 - 12:27 PM.

[LarkinVB]

Stealth suit cappers start to do silly stuff once jetpack is researched. I had one capping, then jumping to new location while not finished just to run back. This went on for some time and the point remained uncapped much too long.

Replay available.

Kroot rush build strategy is very weak versus necrons and weak versus others but has the highest chance to be triggered.

[ThetaOrion]

"6P Testing Grounds," right, Zenoth?

Of all the maps I have played using the Plain Vanilla, I have seen the most aberrant or strange AI behavior on the Testing Grounds map.

Most of the AI factions do nothing and build nothing, but one of them goes crazy every time and takes over half the map in a matter of minutes.

And, it's never the same faction twice.

One game, the Necrons went crazy and were everywhere. The next game, the Space Marines swarmed and were everywhere. Then another game, the Orks fully capped and fully teired mowed over me as Tau and my fully tiered and fully capped Necron AI ally.

In one of my more recent games on Testing Grounds, the Chaos AI had done nothing, so I went and attacked their base, and suddenly they started producing, and wiped out all my troops. Then the Chaos swarmed and eventually joined with the Orks and took the map.

I witness the strangest and most aberrant AI behaviors on the Testing Grounds map. If Thud and Arkhan and the team can recode Dark Crusade so that all of the AI factions work right and play right on Testing Grounds, then they will have arrived, imho!

Edited by ThetaOrion, 15 November 2006 - 12:30 PM.

[Zenoth]

"6P Testing Grounds," right, Zenoth?

Of all the maps I have played using the Plain Vanilla, I have seen the most aberrant or strange AI behavior on the Testing Grounds map.

Most of the AI factions do nothing and build nothing, but one of them goes crazy every time and takes over half the map in a matter of minutes.

And, it's never the same faction twice.

One game, the Necrons went crazy and were everywhere. The next game, the Space Marines swarmed and were everywhere. Then another game, the Orks fully capped and fully teired mowed over me as Tau and my fully tiered and fully capped Necron AI ally.

In one of my more recent games on Testing Grounds, the Chaos AI had done nothing, so I went and attacked their base, and suddenly they started producing, and wiped out all my troops. Then the Chaos swarmed and eventually joined with the Orks and took the map.

I witness the strangest and most aberrant AI behaviors on the Testing Grounds map. If Thud and Arkhan can code Dark Crusade so that all of the AI factions work right and play right on Testing Grounds, then they will have arrived, imho!

I've done a good amount of test matches on Testing Grounds during the WA beta days, and never did I notice anything like what happened to the Orks. Nor even the Necrons. Maybe I've been lucky up to this very day, possible I guess.

I don't know much about map building for Dawn of War and how the engine deals with path-finding and such, however because of a map layout that a faction entirely stalls and needs some sudden alert to resume their things just surprised me, since I never saw that happen before, not that exact same way. That's why I decided to post about it.

If the coding team can confirm that the very map itself is the universal cause of all the points I pointed at then I will simply never touch that map with a kilometer-long rod for the rest of my life. So to avoid wasting further time for me and the whole team and the beta testing process.

Edited by Zenoth, 15 November 2006 - 12:34 PM.

[ThetaOrion]

No, there was no weirdness on Testing Grounds until Dark Crusade arrived. Everything seemed normal on Testing Grounds with Winter Assault and the AI Skirmish Mod.

It's a phenomenon that is subsequent to the introduction of Dark Crusade.

I mean, those Chaos AI enemies literally came alive right before my very eyes.

An AI that starts producing troops and starts building Machine Shops ONLY AFTER the human player has attacked it -- now that's strange AI behavior in my book. And, I have only seen it in Dark Crusade and not before.

Of course, Thud or Arkhan will never see this strangeness in their AI vs AI tests, because there is no human player to attack the AI and wake it up. They will only see it when you report it to them. The whole thing works differently when there is a human in the mix.

Shades and specters holding over from the Dark Crusade Plain Vanilla. And, it will take a few trips from the ghostbusters to get them out, and it may take some time.

No reason to be afraid of the Testing Grounds map if the AI is working right -- it is an official map, and Thud says that the team officially supports official maps as much as reasonably possible. Testing Grounds was always a good map and a good game on that map, a classic, but it has gone a little weird recently thanks the Dark Crusade.

I imagine that some of the strange weirdness that Malkor is seeing on the new official 8P Rhean Jungle map are symptoms of the same AI syndrome. Once they figure out what it is and what is causing it and fix it, then all will be good on all these maps with winding passageways, including the new Morriah Coast map.

The enemy AI needs to start producing and building Machine Shops before the human player arrives, and the Allied AI needs to be made so that it too produces and builds right from the start of the game instead of hybernating and waiting like it sometimes does.

[thudo]

Zenoth - yes I've noticed that behaviour where an Ork AI will stop building/doing anything before it gets the MachineShop only to then start up fast when provoked close to its own base. Its rare and seems to be totally map-dependant where the Ork AI starts. It happened to me when the Ork AI was placed on StartPoint#3 on 6p_BloodAlley. I think it was more a fluke it happened. More testing will see if it happens again but yes this does happen where "the scripts don't fire off correctly".

Larkin - okay will investigate that about the Kroot buildprogram although I find no matter what buildprogram the Tau use they just always own in 1vs1. They simply are a very powerful faction. They need some nerfing by Relic. Also.. the StealthSuit behaviour.. Hmmm.. haven't noticed that per se.

And there is one critical point to the betatests you betatesters must understand:

Please don't judge ONE game - play a few more games from the same map with either the same start locations for each faction or randomize. Dawn of War's AI system is known for scripts not working based on flukes or simply bad luck. Round out the test and try another game before reporting in. You must experience the same result a 2nd or 3rd time then we can determine if its a "reproducable bug".

[ArkhanTheBlack]

If orks stop building anything they've most likely run into a tech trap, which usually means that one or more build programs are messed up. If you see it again please check the chosen build strategy and if possible post the last segment of the AITrace.

I'd hoped that the builder suicide rush is fixed in DC. But like the force commander in the main menu always says: "Hope is the first step to dissapointment." (Especially in case of Relic). Therefore I reactivated the valid movement code for them.

I also found the reason for the chaotic movements while the army is gathering for an attack. The gather position changes somehow during the delay time of two AI refreshes. In other words the AI LUA/SCAR script looses/changes/overwrites variable values. I tried everything: renaming the gather pos, making it global, storing a copy. Hopeless! All vectors that get the value are changed. Even the start pos changed, but since it's only used at the initialization phase, it's not that important. The only way I was able to solve the problem was storing the three coordinates of the gather pos in three separate variables and refresh it each round. It seems like the data loss stays restricted to vectors.
Personally I'm quiet shocked about this behaviour. A script/programming language which looses data is crap, worthless garbage. Therefore I'll try to fix only the most important issues now and then release the mod.

[LarkinVB]

If you fixed the builder suicide I'd say the most obvious flaws remaining are the Necron lords back/forth and the stealth suits jumping around instead of finishing a capture.

@thudo : Tau kroot BO was pwned by necrons. It has a 40% to happen on standard maps +20% vs necrons.

Any idea why I get a sync error trying to watch one of my recorded battles while the other is fine ?

Edited by LarkinVB, 15 November 2006 - 08:56 PM.