25 replies to this topic

[PhoenixHeart]

I followed a link here to this forum from the Relic forums through a link in someone's sig. I've read through some of the posts so far, most notably the most recent DC Beta test thread. After reading what the AI can do now, I'm..... speechless..... so I'm typing. My friend and I love to play DC, mostly against comps, as players, for the most part (the ones we've met at least) are very immature in both winning and losing. Fighting comps is nice because they don't smack talk, play a clean game, but are unfortunately debilitatingly stupid. As far as we're concerned, this mod is the best thing ever to happen to Dawn of War. Period. I want to share an experience of fighting the vanilla AI as I see you guys call it. It was the ONLY time we've ever seen the comp perform well...

We were playing Into the Breach, and earlier that day my brother and I had, on a whim, decided "Hey, lets see what insane Tau comps do." The game ended in under 4 minutes with our complete and total annihilation. After that, I wanted to try that again with my friend (who is more experienced as a RTS player), and we agains played Into the Breach against 2 insane Tau comps. THAT WAS THE BEST GAME I'VE EVER PLAYED!!!! It was so much fun because the AI was GOOD!! (as a side note I would like to say that this is the ONLY time I've seen the AI perform well, even having done this exact setup again, it died fast, nothing like this first time). The comp weakly rushed us, but it felt more like a scouting attack than a full on rush. A few minutes of frantic building later my friend and I had sizeable armies, perpared to defend the breach. Then came the Tau.... and pain, lots of pain blood gore and horror. The comps were RUTHLESS. Unlike every other game where they rush then go dormant, these comps threw everything they had against us, they didn't let up at all. It was one of the most intense battles we'd ever had...... and we've never had more fun with a game than that one, because it was HARD AS HELL. we both had insane body counts, and we finally won, but only because my Space Marine Friend used repeated Deep Strikes (it took more than 1 full DS to dent them) to take out one of the Tau bases while I held the front.

Now, after what I've been reading.... the Skirmish AI performs like this EVERY SINGLE TIME. You have no idea (or maybe you do) how happy I am to see something like this, and....

When is it going to go public, and how can I get my hands on it, and when it is going... wait I said that already.

(I'd ask to help Beta Test, but I'd just get distracted and wouldn't test, I'd just be playing it all day. )

[Malkor]

If you want to get totally annihilated then the Insane difficulty DoS is definately for you. As you may have guessed by reading my various post I am aiming to turn it into a well-oiled killing machine. Plus there's a new tech slider, haven't toyed with it yet, but if it does what I think it does, baneblade rushes by the AI are possible...


Here's a screenshot from one of my insane FFA's. I'll let it do the talking.

Attached Files

•  relic00023.jpg   1.01MB   94 downloads

Edited by Malkor, 15 November 2006 - 12:08 AM.

[PhoenixHeart]

Actually, Malkor, your posts were the most inspiring..... the thing I love most is not to totally annihilate the enemy, but rather be crushed, because it means I have room for improvement, and makes me think of new ways to try and annihilate the opponent. If I do this, it means I'm bored, and need to be killed some more. But seriously, when you were describing the IG attacking you, THAT kind of tactics, that kind of ruthless persistence is what I want. Though I do prefer to have games that aren't all about rushing, and instead let you tech up a bit first and have a good last-tier game duking it out.

*EDIT* I just saw your edit, you must've made it while I was writing this..... nice screenshot.... killing fields, I think I'm in love. Do you use Yahoo or MSN messengers? if so it'd be fun to talk to you

Edited by PhoenixHeart, 15 November 2006 - 12:14 AM.

[thudo]

Yep.. that about sums it up. Problem is: how do you get sooo many bodies? I enabled Persistent Bodies to FULL but I don't see alot of corpses. Do they only count a certain % of bodies from a single squad to remain on the ground? I want all bodies from every squad to show.

[Malkor]

My msn is ICSW_Lurker@hotmail.com

Most people play only standard or hard, and find that challenging enough. I aim to have the most devastating opponent that is possible. To me, insane right now is good, but it can be a lot better. I've been pressing for the DoS team to help shape insane into something truly terrifying. It's the only difficulty I ever play.

Right now only the Necrons truly suffer from deficiencies, but that's what I'm here for - to help point these out and get them fixed.

edit - Thudo, I went into options from the main menu and set everything to max. If you still don't get bodies, I have no idea what's wrong. It has always worked this way for me.


edit II - Also, make note bodies won't be permanent if the player you have selected to view doesn't see them die. For example, in that game I had the IG comp selected. Every ork he killed stayed there, but when the orks killed Eldar elsewhere, those bodies were not permanent because the IG didn't see them. Weird bug, but that's what happens.

Edited by Malkor, 15 November 2006 - 12:23 AM.

[thudo]

Well when a full squad dies, do all its members stay on the ground decaying? Or does the game pick 1-2 units of a squad to remain? I have well beyond the system specs for even Oblivion (except the GPU which new ones comes next week). Maybe there is a switch somewhere to increase body count.

[Malkor]

Heh, oblivion isn't really that high spec to be honest.

Every infantry unit that dies stays there for me. Every single one. So, IG vs Orks for half an hour ends up like that shot above.

[ThetaOrion]

Me, I lived for the Skirmish Mod (at HARD setting) to get the Tier 4 huge armies battling it out -- the pyrotechnic lightshow was just astounding. I like seeing things get to Tier 4.

So, to complete the process, I then get a huge 1024 map with a huge strategic chokepoint, something like Aralez's DrawBridge Recreated or Aralez's Winter Gauntlet, and then watch the bodies and the flames, and the nukes pile it high and deep right in that guantlet or chokepoint.

THE MOST AWESOME screenshots to ever come out of a game, right at that chokepoint or gauntlet with either Teir 4 armies battling it out with ubers and Orbital Strikes into the gauntlet or with three Titan Cannons fully blazing into the gauntlet on the Winter Gauntlet map. You ain't seen anything yet until you have seen three Titan Cannons mowing down Tier 4 Armies inside the gauntlet while your Restored Necron Monolith is up there on the ledge shooting down into the gauntlet as well.

Turn on persistent bodies with something like that, and watch your frame rates drop!!

You guys just haven't lived yet. You need to try a couple of Aralez's castle maps with the huge chokepoints, Winter Gauntlet if you want massive carnage and piles of persistent bodies and lots of pyrotechnics and Titan Cannos, or DrawBridge Recreated or Desert Gauntlet if you want the more subdued clash of Tier4 titans in the gauntlet. I know, they are user-made maps. But, it's a whole other photo-op!! And you just don't know what you are missing.

I live for the pyrotechnic lightshow and the clash of Titans thirty minutes into the game -- getting mowed over and removed from the game in the first five minutes of play, not so much so. We each have our own thing!

Edited by ThetaOrion, 15 November 2006 - 01:33 AM.

[Malkor]

I basically just want a titanic penal colony or a titanic rhean jungle. No titan cannons or weird game altering things like that.

I remember asking aralez to do one of those and his comp couldn't handle it. I think he sent me a beefed up PC before I quit for a while, though. I think I still have it around on my HD. Where do I put custom maps?

Edited by Malkor, 15 November 2006 - 01:39 AM.

[Verrückt]

Btw, use hellhounds they are much more effective ( :o ) and they arnt too much more expensive. Edit: than the Chimera*.

DoubleEdit: mis-qouted...wtf?

Edited by Verrückt, 15 November 2006 - 01:40 AM.

[ThetaOrion]

No titan cannons or weird game altering things like that.

--

It's the Titan Cannons and the weird game altering Chokepoint that takes it to a whole other level of carnage and lightshow.

If you are in it for the normal or the ordinary, then Relic's official maps are going to give you just that. If you are in it for the extraordinary photo opportunity or the piles of persistent bodies or the massive carnage or the Teir 4 clash of Ubers, only the Titan Cannons and Orbital strikes from the overlook or ledge into the gauntlet or a Restored Necron Monolith teleported up onto the ledge is going to take it up over the edge into the realm of the truly extraordinary!!

It depends upon what you are after. The more fully tiered all the armies are, the better it gets. And, sometimes if you let them tier up enough, 6 of those enemies will rush the 2 of you defenders on the inside, destroy the Titans and completely overrun your base and destroy you as well. Winter Gauntlet is 2 defenders inside, YOU, with 6 attackers outside -- Skewed Team Play. It's a whole other game. And, it's really meant to give you the best possible photo opportunities that the game can provide, no question!!

It's not about seeing how fast you can mow them down or how fast you can be mowed down and eliminated. It's a completely opposite strategy and set of goals. It's about the light show and the Tier 4 clash of Titans, and the piles of bodies that result -- that's what you are living for, and the longer you can keep it going, the better.

Viewing Aralez's screen shots on Relic Forums was one of the highlights of the game for me, and that was before we got the Necrons and the Tau, which put out a huge light show all of their own, let me tell you.

Winter Gauntlet 2P vs 6P: You just have to let yourself experience the weird, walk on the other side, or walk on the wild side, and wait for the photo opportunities to pile up, and keep those Titan Cannons humming!! It's the greatest thing that the game provides, bar none!!



It's a whole different set of goals you are striving for when you allow yourself to play on something like the Winter Gauntlet Map and take it to the limit.

--
||
--

ProgramFiles\THQ\Dawn of War - Dark Crusade\W40k\Data\scenarios\MP

You gonna have to create the scenarios and MP subdirectories yourself!!

Then pile in any of the old user made maps and up they come!! Great stuff if you find the right ones.

--
||
--

Gonna make it easy:

http://dawnofwar.fil..._Map_Pack;54676

Take a walk on the wild side!!

[Malkor]

That looks like it would be hilarious as IG vs orks.

[ThetaOrion]

I played the more subdued Desert Gauntlet as the 2 IG defenders inside, and it took 8 hours to get outside and win. It really was something to behold. 8 hours of play, a whole Saturday.

On Winter Gauntlet, playing as 2 IG defenders, you will get an occasional lull in the gauntlet or a cleared gauntlet that allows you to rush everything out and hopefully take down a base. Though, I often had to do it twice, two separate rushes while the gauntlet was empty in order to establish a true base outside. You have to take the fight outside to win.

These Castle Defense maps are the reason why it is so important for me that the AI, all of the AI, can get to Tier 4.

Half the time, the current Dark Crusade plain vanilla AI never tiers up, so that kind of ruins it on these castle assault maps, because you can easily get outside the castle and wipe out the factions that haven't tiered up.

But, when Thud and Arkhan get their AI fully fixed, as they did with Winter Assault, you can have a very difficult time winning the Winter Gauntlet map, and sometimes, the six fully tiered enemies outside will just destroy the Titan cannons in the gauntlet and overrun you, if the AI is working right and fully tiering.

It's the best use of Thud and Arkhan's AI in my opinion, an AI that fully tiers and hits you in the gauntlet with ubers battling it out and Titan Cannons a firing.

It's a really cool map!!

Because there are only two of you on the inside, sometimes the gameplay can last for hours, and sometimes if the AI is firing on all cylinders, you will lose an hour and a half into the game when they finally overrun you.

Thud and Arkhan's AI also presses the fight into the gauntlet a lot better than Relic's plain vanilla AI does. The AI has to be aggressive enough, or the AI will just stand outside the gauntlet out of range of the Titan Cannons and do nothing.

Thud and Arkhan's AI always took the fight to you, and pressed it solid for two or three or eight hours straight!!

So, now you know why I'm still a big fan of the AI Skirmish Mod, and why I am still eagerly awaiting the Advanced DC AI that's coming -- photo opportunities and piles of persistent bodies and endless streams of AI for hours on the Winter Gauntlet Map.

[dctrjons]

Persistant bodies note. Yeah I have mine turned up too. Not all bodies in a squad stay, I'd say 20%. Mechs and commanders on average do not stay.

But after a 30 min typical skirmish the hot spots will look like his screenshot. Esp with maps with long choke points. And sadly with vanilla in places where I set up scout snipers on high traffic areas, and IG main base seems like the only AI routine vanilla uses to TRY and discover stealthed units.

And I think system specs are independant of what the game decides to put on your screen. I have a not so hot computer that I had persistant bodies up on and they were put on screen even though after 15 min areas of the map became slideshows.

EDIT: Gauntlets...ahh yeah thats the maps that were on the other computer...thank you. Yeah I played IG vs orcs on one of them....ran out of time and computer power at the gates. Fighting of 2 sqigs and finally getting BB down the hall just to have Squig#3 block my way with no really way to move it (out of tittan gun range). Fun but became to much....this machine can...thanks for the link and memories

Edited by dctrjons, 15 November 2006 - 04:32 AM.

[thudo]

Thats probably my prob: my battles tend to not last long.. Not enough attrition so the body count isn't allowed to go up on the front.. heheh Oh thats just sick... :(

[Malkor]

Only 20% for you? It's every single body for me. I mean every single one. I've zoomed in to watch these battles at maximum and made note. Commanders and vehicles never stay, only infantry. And they stay permanently. In that 3 hour game there were still the very first elder I killed 3 minutes into the game, right where I left them.


There is an amusing glitch that often occurs with Necron bodies, too.


No, none of these units are alive. They all belonged to the defeated player.

Attached Files

•  relic00033.jpg   675.89KB   36 downloads

Edited by Malkor, 15 November 2006 - 04:40 AM.

[thudo]

Yes Relic did not complete some persistent body death anims.. A little sad on their part. Also, watch when yer Necron AI Ally or yourself build an Energy Core then research the Nightbringer research item. hehe.. See the Pink box in the research area? Another Relic blunder..

Also.. place yer mouse over the center drop-down button for both Tau and Necron see how the template is broken as it isn't smooth with the background UI? Not too professional on their part.

[dctrjons]

Only 20% for you? It's every single body for me. I mean every single one. I've zoomed in to watch these battles at maximum and made note. Commanders and vehicles never stay, only infantry. And they stay permanently. In that 3 hour game there were still the very first elder I killed 3 minutes into the game, right where I left them.


There is an amusing glitch that often occurs with Necron bodies, too.


No, none of these units are alive. They all belonged to the defeated player.

Yeah, I'd say random 20%( edit: been a while it's prolly higher but I know it's not 100% for me). Sometimes 60% sometimes 0%. If I send a squad of scouts out to cpature a point and they are slaughtered. Typically 5 min later there is no eveidence of it happening or MAYBE 1 or 2 stay. All bodies always stay for about 30 sec but then a few fade, the one that are left are left for good. And I think it is situationally dependant. IE - 20 vs 20 slow battle 20 reinforcements each side > body count than - 40 vs 40 slaughter.

Because I've had chokepoint battles that I know I didn't have as many troops as I dedicated to a flanking harrasment and the body count on the flanking fights was far lower than the choke point.

And yeah, seen a lot of in action deaths, seems to only happen in mass battles with several unit types...unfinished infantry execution animations where I'm guessing the executor was killed before finishing the animation.


Side Note - Something that irritated me but for not really a good reason. I like long battles, and if I get set-up too fast I like to form a defensive front and wait for the AI to catch up. BUT vanilla AI seems to send what they have when they get it, 90% of the time. Now I've THINK I've seen the AI hold off but quite frankly I think it was just because I took too many points.
The question - Will your AI have a build-up option? I mean there is little reason IMO that the AI should send a squad of 1/2 reinforced grunts at the known enemy main base location when their army was just totaled. If it catches a break, will it use it before sending out sure-to-die troops? 4 unupgraded turrets and a repair man should not be all it takes to hold back a tier 3 equiped army, but it is if they just send their tier 1-3 stuff as they make 'em.

Edited by dctrjons, 15 November 2006 - 05:09 AM.

[ThetaOrion]

Well, I had to turn off the persistent bodies because the pile up in the gauntlet or chokepoint of some of these huge user-made maps would literally seize my machine up and bring it to a standstill -- that was with the 5900 card.

I have a newer 6800GS that could probably process huge piles of persistent bodies in a relatively timely fashion before it started to lag or choke, but even then, although I haven't tried it yet I would eventually expect to see my Athlon XP to start to lag and stutter after awhile, especially with full persistent bodies on something like the Winter Gauntlet map. (My machine is ancient, but I'm slowly saving up for another Computer a couple of years down the road with Dual QuadCore Processors, a couple of DirectX10 GeForce 9900 cards, Vista Service Pack 1, and 4 gig of DDR3 RAM.)

I guess I always preferred smooth framerates over piles of persistent bodies, but if you are watching replays to specifically make screenshots, then yes, the piles of persistent bodies and high attrition body counts are a prerequisite, even if you have to force yourself to live with only a frame per minute to get the screenshots. <grin>

For some unknown reason, Aralez hasn't been able to get his screenshot thing working right in Dark Crusade, and he was always the one who got me into watching replays and taking screenshots. He'll figure it out someday. It all takes time!

Edited by ThetaOrion, 15 November 2006 - 05:33 AM.

[Malkor]

The bodies don't really cause that much of a slowdown for my 9800 pro. They might if I have fraps going but otherwise, not really.