45 replies to this topic

[ArkhanTheBlack]

Changes:

- Buggy fast tech Ork build program fixed

- Weird gather movement fixed (More a work around...)

- Commissar execute activated only if squad has morale < 50%

- Tau shield drone activation increased (I took Larkins suggestion...)

- Bug with not built cappers fixed

- Necron Lord only built with 3000+ army strength, except tier 1

- Tomb spyders only built with 3000+ army strength, except 1 which stays at home spawning scarabs

That's all I can remember for now. Build sent to Thud for upload...

[thudo]

Will send it up when I get home.

Larkin made some good observations

- Tau StealthSuit capping probs when jetpack researched
- Disallowing Kroot BO when against Necrons.
- Initial Tau BuildOrder doesn't make the 2nd and 3rd StealthSuits for capping (will quickly test this!!)
- Tau Commander's Snare Traps should be thrown in front of approaching enemy (not behind -- although I wonder: how does anyone know where Infiltrated Units really are that the AI should toss the trap infront of visible oncoming enemies? )

Thanks Larkin!

[thudo]

Update - Testing Beta4 currently.. will upload it to site in under 30mins.

Initial Tau BuildOrder doesn't make the 2nd and 3rd StealthSuits for capping is working fine - 3 StealthSuits come out and cap although I did see what Larkin was mentioning re: the Stealthsuits doing a little dance when Jetpacks are researched. Will test 6p_TestingGrounds to see what the prob is there. I remember there were issues with certain startpoints but will check right now..

Btw, want to see a map screwup that the AI cannot cross the mid-section of the map? Try 6p_VandeanCoast and watch what the AI does.. I remember some Relic maps had this prob with the dividing line in the map center (ie. 4p_MountainTrail) preventing AIs from attacking across the map. Wierd eh?

Update Again..

Just had a 3v3 on 6p_TestingGrounds..

Result.. I saw no issues.. All factions played well and teched to their max.. noone lagged behind that I saw. I submitting Beta4 for appraisal. So far it totally works with that map. Totally. I will run it again but saw nothing unusual.

[Zenoth]

Update - Testing Beta4 currently.. will upload it to site in under 30mins.

Initial Tau BuildOrder doesn't make the 2nd and 3rd StealthSuits for capping is working fine - 3 StealthSuits come out and cap although I did see what Larkin was mentioning re: the Stealthsuits doing a little dance when Jetpacks are researched. Will test 6p_TestingGrounds to see what the prob is there. I remember there were issues with certain startpoints but will check right now..

Btw, want to see a map screwup that the AI cannot cross the mid-section of the map? Try 6p_VandeanCoast and watch what the AI does.. I remember some Relic maps had this prob with the dividing line in the map center (ie. 4p_MountainTrail) preventing AIs from attacking across the map. Wierd eh?

Update Again..

Just had a 3v3 on 6p_TestingGrounds..

Result.. I saw no issues.. All factions played well and teched to their max.. noone lagged behind that I saw. I submitting Beta4 for appraisal. So far it totally works with that map. Totally. I will run it again but saw nothing unusual.

Awesome.

I'll get to it in a couple of hours.

Thanks a lot guys.

[thudo]

Thanks Zenoth.. hoping you have the same result..

Btw, my comments on 6p_VandeanCoast were incorrect: the AI works fine there although examining Tau on that map. Noticed they get to a point then stop producing units regardless of whats going on. The StealthSuits jumping around instead of capping points after researching JumpJets is noticeable here too. Otherwise.. factions are preforming to spec! Orks, BY FAR, benefited greatly in this build BIG TIME. Can't believe I missed that recruitment research/Free Sluggas prob in the Ork buildprograms. :( Ugh.. That basically cleared up Orks and now they are just rocking..

Update.. Tau are fine.. Just tested 3 games on 6p_VandeanCoast and they seem fine. I did have 2 games where a Tau AI player didn't build any vehicles until it was attacked but then had another game and it seems fine. This is a VERY LOW resource map (only 2 strats per Startpoint) so the AI is quite stressed here.

[dctrjons]

Man you guys are cranking it out, nice.

Take a break, have a Coke.......








Ok back to work.

Edited by dctrjons, 16 November 2006 - 04:19 AM.

[troubadour]

The TAU AI usuallly makes 3 builders, I only go for the 3rd one once my econ is running well
I also noticed 2 or 3 squads of scarab trying to speed a generator build BUT on relic forums
i have found something interesting :

Builder Number vs bulding speed

So no need to use 3 scarabs squads to build a generator, and usually other races just need 2 builders (provided the post in right of course)

OK back to "work" with the Beta 4 : skirmish game on Blood River, Tau (me) vs Cron (AI)
The necron lord did not attack me during all the game, AI built Wraith, Destroyer, Vanilla Squad, all these troops engage mine with the Lord carefully
away from action. When i invaded the cron base, the cron troops got happily killed because (i guess) they were trying to join the lord in
the right corner of the map but came across my army on the way

PM me is you need the replay

Edited by troubadour, 16 November 2006 - 08:06 AM.

[ArkhanTheBlack]

@troubadour
Just attach the replay to the post...

[Zenoth]

My first observations for Beta 4, on Testing Grounds (exact same settings as my previous test with Beta 3).

I'll focus these points on the Orks.

º Here, a single XV15 Stealthsuit firing at a Slugga Boy squad. The Slugga Boys stayed there doing nothing for a long period, and they eventually went north to attack an un-built Tau post on the Relic. The Sluggas completely ignored the Stealthsuit. A coincidence perhaps that they both arrived at the same time to get that LP, however the Stealthsuit clearly had the advantage there.


This might be complex to fix. I don't know if invisible units have any strength values recognizable by enemies when they (for example the Sluggas in this case) can't see anything. Can they ? If so then the Sluggas might just need to be able to "known" that they're being fired at by a stronger (since they can't do anything against it) unit, and then either just stand there if the moral is good enough and the squad ain't dying, or just retreat and go elsewhere, getting a new objective or trying to scout for another LP.

Technically speaking though, the Sluggas could not have died from that XV15 alone. They could have started to cap the LP, and then leave, however the XV15 might have tried to get it back right after that. Either way ... something else had to happen, else than standing there getting shot at, that's for sure.

º The Orks "stall" seen with Beta 3 wasn't present to the same extent, a little better this time, but I still noticed that it remained at least for the vehicles. They, once again, accumulated their resources for a long period, never producing any vehicles, even though they built a vehicle production structure quite early. Look at the timer, I already had produced a couple of Dreads by then, and all other races properly built vehicles, but not the Orks.


Also, important to note that they also trained very little amount of infantry. Way too low, and believe me it wasn't a lack of resources, nor a lack of opportunity to do so (they had plenty of time to train way more with the given resources before the Tau decided to attack them).

º Very similar to Beta 3's stall, the Orks suddenly decided to build a vehicle right when the Tau arrived at their base for the final assault. They cranked them one after the other as fast as they could, but, of course, it was too little, and way too late.



I'll get back with details for the Necrons, Tau and Eldar.

I can however say right here about the Eldar one thing, is that they go one of my LP back after the Chaos and Necrons attacked me early in the game. The Eldar helped me push all of them back, however I had lost one LP (west one, from starting location), and they capped it. That wasn't the "problem" in itself. The problem is that they built something like five or six Webway Gates right by it. The Turrets there, I understand, and maybe one Gate, I would as well understand, but ... more than four or five ? Hum, not sure.

Here I add the AI Traces texts right now, in case I take more time than expected to come back with more details (preparing myself to go to job in two hours). So, yeah, perhaps Arkhan can take a look at it, it might explain what's still wrong with the Orks (if "wrong" there is, although I do believe so).

Edited by Zenoth, 16 November 2006 - 11:28 AM.

[Finaldeath]

One thing, even though I have had no time to explictly test the skirmish AI:

- Commissar execute activated only if squad has morale < 50%

This seems odd - the boost from using the ability isn't just to repair morale (although that is useful) it is to increase rate of fire / damage. Its basically a 20 req power It might be worth having a few conditions such as "with lots of other troops" (since it affects lots of people nearby) and "Has at least half squad strength".

I'm not sure how you can track if the squad is already affected by it (from it being used nearby) however.

[LarkinVB]

I also observed excessive eldar webways at front LPs. They had 6+ of them around one LP and only one at home. In this game eldar also only build wraithlords (lots of them) as vehicles, no skimmers at all.

Necron lord is now only build rarely. Whats the reasoning ?

[thudo]

So no need to use 3 scarabs squads to build a generator, and usually other races just need 2 builders (provided the post in right of course)

Well, since Scarab builders are free to create (can't remember if their reinforcements are as well) then I don't see a prob + Scarab builders are used to capture/build LPs so having a # of em isn't a disadvantage.

skirmish game on Blood River, Tau (me) vs Cron (AI)
The necron lord did not attack me during all the game, AI built Wraith, Destroyer, Vanilla Squad, all these troops engage mine with the Lord carefully away from action. When i invaded the cron base, the cron troops got happily killed because (i guess) they were trying to join the lord in the right corner of the map but came across my army on the way

Yes this is known to happen where on SOME maps and/or on some RARE games the NecronLord, when created, just doesn't move from its position where it was resurrected or first built. This might be a Relic bug. Unless we can reset the NecronLord if it remains too long in its idle state (much like we will need code which disallows idle jumpable units [especially vehicles] from getting stuck in its base or on a map to move to a safe position) then this bug will occur here and there. If only seen it occur maybe 10% of the time in all games.

Also.. when the AI is moving its forces to join up in an area they don't use attack-move on its way. I believe this was scripted for a reason but its a hard tactic choice to make as we are calling back the AI forces to assist in an area hence the reason the forces sometimes get slaughtered on the way back. :(

Here, a single XV15 Stealthsuit firing at a Slugga Boy squad. The Slugga Boys stayed there doing nothing for a long period, and they eventually went north to attack an un-built Tau post on the Relic. The Sluggas completely ignored the Stealthsuit

Well its obvious why the AI left its Sluggas there to take punishment: they cannot see thus attack the StealthSuit so they idle with nothing to attack. I gather a check would have to be made so if a unit was under attack but idle (thus could not fight back) the unit(s) would idle for a moment then retreat away from the enemy fire (to which it cannot fight anyway).

The Orks "stall" seen with Beta 3 wasn't present to the same extent, a little better this time, but I still noticed that it remained at least for the vehicles. They, once again, accumulated their resources for a long period, never producing any vehicles, even though they built a vehicle production structure quite early.

Hmmm.. I don't remotely get this problem on the map. Are you playing 3vs3 or a FFA? I want to test precisely what yer experiencing as I don't get this problem at all on TestingGrounds especially since that map has lots of resources.

The problem is that they built something like five or six Webway Gates right by it. The Turrets there, I understand, and maybe one Gate, I would as well understand, but ... more than four or five ? Hum, not sure.

okay.. this was decided on for a reason --> "webway shroud". One webway is built early on at the main base (sometimes not however and it goes off to a close LP) and then other subsequent LPs go to LPs on the front. Granted, optimally, Webways should be randomly built on all captured and built Eldar LPs but that perhaps is a future goal. A script, like building units in the back of bases or on the front, would need to be created to designate buildings to random LPs. This would be a massive boon to the Eldar AI as it would place LPs under protected shroud.

However, if those webways which were built on the front are killed, the AI will simply rebuild em back toward less threatened LPs. Its a decent compromise for now and does not seem to affect the Eldar AI whatsoever since not many units for all factions can detect Infiltration.

[thudo]

In this game eldar also only build wraithlords (lots of them) as vehicles, no skimmers at all.

Hmm.. I have seen skimmers many times. Wraithlords are just more cost-effective but one can easily make Falcons/Vypers available. Have to adjust both the Rating and Weapon effectiveness values to be close to each other. Prisms are used as well but somewhat rare since they are Tier4, High Cap, and expensive.

As for Necron Lord being built rarely.. not sure on that one.

[LarkinVB]

It is fine that you agree with mass webways (+mines+turrets) at single front LP or a wraithlord only build. I just found it a bit strange. I suggest limiting number of webways around a single LP just like ork banners are handled.

[thudo]

Excellent idea on the limiting webways around LPs. I also see the problem with why the AI favours WLs and have corrected it. The AI not only uses the "Rating =" line but also seems to use all the weapon values for each shown hardpoint in unitstats.ai to determine overall usefullness in combat thus WL had more present values showing and was thus more favoured. I have normalized it while retaining their usefulness.

[troubadour]

@Arkhan here is the replay about the necron lord not engaging troops and by the end of game, necron troops getting shot when they try to join the NL

@Thud, you are right with the scarabs but since 2 squad is enough no need to use 3 squad to build a gen, the remaining squad could be use to detect these pesky Tau stealth suits.... :-)

I have also noticed something in another game (sorry no replay) the cron decimated
my troops and headed to my base i had a HQ, a barrack, 3 LP and 2 or 3 gen and half a squad of FW, the cron charged, killed the FW and then... retreated instead of finishing me
I saw 3 squad of necron warriors i thought GG but no.. they came back later killed the few men i had
and retreated again and it goes like this with destroyer, tomb spider and so on
Finally they destroyed my base but it seems that if not attacked they dont push or use their advantage

Attached Files

•  2P_BLOOD_RIVER.2006_11_16.08_49_02.rar   184.96KB   8 downloads

[thudo]

you are right with the scarabs but since 2 squad is enough no need to use 3 squad to build a gen, the remaining squad could be use to detect these pesky Tau stealth suits

Its scripted that if Scarab Builders (or builders in general) are idle they help other builders build something in the queue. To send Scarab Builders out to the field just to scan for Infiltrated units is VERY dangerous. There are other Necron units to fulfill that role.

[ArkhanTheBlack]

º The Orks "stall" seen with Beta 3 wasn't present to the same extent, a little better this time, but I still noticed that it remained at least for the vehicles.

There was even another bug in the fast tech program. I found and fixed it now. Hopefully it works correct now...

This seems odd - the boost from using the ability isn't just to repair morale (although that is useful) it is to increase rate of fire / damage. Its basically a 20 req power It might be worth having a few conditions such as "with lots of other troops" (since it affects lots of people nearby) and "Has at least half squad strength".

I'm not sure how you can track if the squad is already affected by it (from it being used nearby) however.

The morale loss is a good sign of a heavy fire fight. Otherwise they'd execute their own troops to easily. Sure, there could be more complex code, but for the moment it should be good enough for most situations.

Necron lord is now only build rarely. Whats the reasoning ?

Obviously, my emergency teleport was not able to save him from getting killed if he's ressurected close to enemy troops. Therefore the best solution is to only build him if an instant loss won't hurt the Necron AI too much. So the Necron Lord is only built in tier2+ if the AI has at least 3000 army strength. Therefore no easy kills more for the opponent.

Edited by ArkhanTheBlack, 16 November 2006 - 06:19 PM.

[troubadour]

Damned it crashed again Tau vs Necron game on Face Off map skirmish game :-(

here are a screenpic with the console log + the AI log file (rar)

Mod installed in
C:\Program Files\THQ\Dawn of War - Dark Crusade\DXP2\Data\ai


I Dont know what happened a lot of troops were fighting at a choke point
I must say that the few games i played yesterday did not crashed, am i the only in
this situation ? am i cursed ?

Attached Files

•  1001aitrace.rar   582.47KB   9 downloads
•  aierror.jpg   874.49KB   19 downloads

[thudo]

What the heck?! You were playing against the Necron AI and you got the error in function CpuManager:GetUnitStrength(oUnit) @ line:
for iLoop1 in aAttachments do

Bizzare.. Necrons have no attachable units though. I should run a few tests on that map with the same factions. How many times u played that map? When did the error occur (mins into the game)?