45 replies to this topic

[LarkinVB]

Some necron observations as they are one of the weakest races in my tests.

1. They should build generators faster at gamestart.
2. lord definatly has a back and forth move problem, often failing to engage in CC. Not building him midgame does weaken necrons considerably.
3. To many wraith are build. The AI can't handle them effectively.

Btw "space_marine_dummy_weapon" should be removed from unitstats.ai files.

[troubadour]

I had already this kind of error but not on this map, once it was on MoM so i dont think it is map related
It crashed after 20min and 48 sec as suggest the ai log file

I dont know, how necron parts are managed when harvested by a tomb spider
How the scarabs swarm from the tomb spyder are managed ? is it a special ability or like ?

I must add that the standard DC game never crashed on my computer, so far i have gone through 3 campaigns (Necron, Tau, SM) without any problem

I will play another game on the same map though

[thudo]

They should build generators faster at gamestart.

There not fast enough? I think the Necron AI needs to get out those Warriors fast while balancing Power construction. No sense in having a little early map presence if yer building energy and not enough warriors. Is it not balanced now? There are a lot of warriors now very early with a good buildorder of power.

Do agree on the NecronLord..

As for Wraiths.. AI actually builds alot of em? I find its about balanced. Wraiths are excellent close-range fast melee. I'll check to see how many I see at one time. Never felt there was too many of em.

Btw "space_marine_dummy_weapon" should be removed from unitstats.ai files.

It doesn't matter.. Check the console: it doesn't report it being an error. In WA, it would, but in DC its okay (treats it as a valid Hardpoint). However, if you put in a hardpoint not intended for that unit, then it'll complain. Otherwise, leaving it there means nothing. We've already got the unitstats done (except I retweaked the Eldar and IG a little bit in the low-med vehicle sections).

[LarkinVB]

Otherwise, leaving it there means nothing.

I wouldn't bet on that. Units value is modified by weapon effectiveness and a hardpoint with values > 0 might mess up the equation. Sad that Relic never revealed how they compute units effectivness total.

Edited by LarkinVB, 16 November 2006 - 07:21 PM.

[thudo]

True.. Yes we can purge hardpoints with 0 values. Sorry.. I replied above to your other items.. Welcome Back Larkin! Glad yer still around.. always a pleasure!

[LarkinVB]

Wraiths are excellent close-range fast melee.

They are too fragile to attack alone but this is what happens often.

[ArkhanTheBlack]

Damned it crashed again Tau vs Necron game on Face Off map skirmish game :-(

Ah! I found it!

We had: Attachments.kroot_carnivore_squad = { "tau_kroot_shaper_squad" }

But it must be: Attachments.tau_kroot_carnivore_squad = { "tau_kroot_shaper_squad" }

Just a typing error. Will be fixed in next beta. Thanks for the hint!

2. lord definatly has a back and forth move problem, often failing to engage in CC. Not building him midgame does weaken necrons considerably.

I think the back and forth move is the domovetoclosestsavepoint() command. I combined it with the teleport, but somehow it doesn't seem to work like expected. Maybe I'll give him another try this weekend.

3. To many wraith are build. The AI can't handle them effectively.

Was this the wraith rush or just too many wraiths in mid game?

[LarkinVB]

I think the back and forth move is the domovetoclosestsavepoint() command. I combined it with the teleport, but somehow it doesn't seem to work like expected. Maybe I'll give him another try this weekend.

Perhaps just use MoveToDisengage() and modify it to MoveToDisengage(jump_only). With jump_only true the function will only allow jumps(teleport), no standard moves. All existing calls will use MoveToDisengage(false) and the new necron lord call will use MoveToDisengage(true)

Was this the wraith rush or just too many wraiths in mid game?

Too many wraith early to midgame just getting shot without achieving anything

Edited by LarkinVB, 16 November 2006 - 08:02 PM.

[troubadour]

@Arkhan
I have fixed the typo in tauunitstats.ai, the others files look right, i will keep you informed

I have the same opinion about Wraith just as Larkin said, the problem is not really their number but they shall be sent at the ennemy once the main necron force is fighting in CC then the Wraith shall come but not as first attackers cause they are so fragile they cant reach ranged troops when they are shot at will

[thudo]

So in summation:

Eldar
===
- Allow limiting # of Webways per LP or a new script to allow for building placements on a randomized # of LPs (nifty idea too)

Necrons
=====
- Build more generators sooner balanced with 2 Scarab builder cappers
- Correct NecronLord's back-forth movement, perhaps have him show up more often
- Perhaps limit Wraiths (although still see em being more useful than not)

Tau
===
- Tau StealthSuit capping probs when jetpack researched
- Disallowing Kroot BO when against Necrons.
- Tau Commander's Snare Traps should be thrown in front of approaching enemy (not behind -- although I wonder: how does anyone know where Infiltrated Units really are that the AI should toss the trap infront of visible oncoming enemies? )

Misc
===
- Idle check to move a unit or squad to safety when under fire but unable to defend itself (ie. Sluggas being attacked by Infiltrated *hidden* StealthSuits).
- Like above, a idle time-out check for jumpable units [especially vehicles] to avoid getting stuck in its base or on a map and then jump that unit to closest available open position

I tweaked both Eldar and IG's low and med vehicles so the AI can get more balanced armies out of em.

Also, I removed any unrelevant 0,0,0,0 hardpoints which the AI wouldn't use. I kept ones like for the SM/CSM Rhinos.

[Malkor]

It would seem the monolith's auto-teleport near death is fairly buggy. In one game vs a human I was able to "have" 4 monoliths at a time. My restored monolith would teleport, but I'd have all 3 left. This happened I think when my restored monolith was actually destroyed instead of being able to teleport. I could then restore any of my remaining 3 monoliths and create a restored one, without losing any of the other 3.

There has also been instances with heavily lagged teleporting. In one last game, watching the AI, the one necron's monolith had a 25 second delay between trying to teleport, and then actually teleporting (vanishing).

I also think if the Necrons have a mass of unused power at tier3-4 they should immediately restore another of their upgraded monoliths while the last one is being repaired, to get their fortress back on the battlefield asap.

I have a fairly good feeling the bugs with the teleporting are relic issues as I have experienced them in human vs human games without the AI mod.

[ArkhanTheBlack]

Perhaps just use MoveToDisengage() and modify it to MoveToDisengage(jump_only). With jump_only true the function will only allow jumps(teleport), no standard moves. All existing calls will use MoveToDisengage(false) and the new necron lord call will use MoveToDisengage(true)

Sounds good. Especially since it's an approved function. I'll try that next. Let's hope it works...

I also think if the Necrons have a mass of unused power at tier3-4 they should immediately restore another of their upgraded monoliths while the last one is being repaired, to get their fortress back on the battlefield asap.

They do that already if they've enough ressources and a big enough army.

I have the same opinion about Wraith just as Larkin said, the problem is not really their number but they shall be sent at the ennemy once the main necron force is fighting in CC then the Wraith shall come but not as first attackers cause they are so fragile they cant reach ranged troops when they are shot at will

Yes, I fear Larkin and you are right. They have a completely different speed than the necron warriors and tend to leave them far behind and die hopeless at the front. Since they are detectors, some are needed, but not too much.

@Thudo
You should update the list in the SDI sub forum with those points. I found this list very helpfull to keep an overview about what has to be done.

[thudo]

Yes, I fear Larkin and you are right. They have a completely different speed than the necron warriors and tend to leave them far behind and die hopeless at the front. Since they are detectors, some are needed, but not too much.

Also comes down to the fact that unlike, say, Age of Empires2 and 3, in DoW you cannot move formations of different units at the same speed so that they all attack together. You have to "baby-sit them". :( Further, the AI system cannot control individual unit tactics (ie. focus fire) so we're left with sending units en-masse somewhat blindly hoping they come out on-top in a firefight. Wraiths are typical of this: they simply move too fast and are only good when the slower Necron units are in-combat tying up the enemy. Problem becomes: we cannot tell the Wraiths to attack at specific times when they are most needed.

You should update the list in the SDI sub forum with those points. I found this list very helpfull to keep an overview about what has to be done.

I'll ensure thats done!

[Zenoth]

Thudo I just wanted to say, that for that match I described in this thread at Testing Grounds, that it was a 3 Vs 3, not a FFA, I very rarely test in FFA's, but if I do I will say it. I will resume analysis of the replay for that match once I finish doing my stuff at home, just arrived from the job. And I will post the replay as well so you can see how the Orks played.

[thudo]

Try a different faction on that spot where the Orks didn't build properly. I find that highly suspect. See if that other faction on that spot does the same: not tech/build correctly until you attack. Somethings not right: I tried 3 times and all AIs preformed beautifully.

I would HIGHLY recommend turning off FogOfWar and simply see what those factions are up to.

[ArkhanTheBlack]

Like I said, the orks 4th build program has a bug. The line

{ 2, 150, 0, 1000, 6, "Building", "ork_generator" },

must be

{ 2, 150, 0, 0, 6, "Building", "ork_generator" },

They wait for troops although they aren't allowed to build troops. This can't work. Make this fix and they should work fine.

[Malkor]

Hey guys, is it possible to make build orders specificialy for the Insane difficulty? I might try my hand at modifying some of the existing build orders to make something for my large insane games, but it will be moot point if it can't be limited to that difficulty.

[ThetaOrion]

It would seem the monolith's auto-teleport near death is fairly buggy. In one game vs a human I was able to "have" 4 monoliths at a time.

--

Buggy indeed!

In one of my games, plain vanilla, my Restored Monolith was about to die and teleported back to base. It got there all right, but one of my other monoliths just completely disappeared from the map. Pressing the Home key, repeatedly, showed me that I only had two monoliths after the teleport whereas I had three before.

There was just that emtpy square thing there where the disappeared monolith used to be, and it wouldn't allow me to build another monolith, so I was stuck for the rest of the game with access to only two monoliths and no way to upgrade to a Restored Monolith. I was all locked out.

Buggy indeed!

I would have lost that game if it weren't for the Necron Lord's Resurrection ability, and the ability to teleport Flayed One's directly to the Enemy's Stronghold and resurrect them on site with the Necron Lord.

This bug with a teleporting nearly dead Restored Monolith can go both ways. Can give you and extra monolith or can take away one of your three.

Sometimes when Arkhan or Larkin are in there looking at the code, they actually find a way to change or fix these bugs, if they are AI related. Here's crossing our fingers!!

[Zenoth]

Try a different faction on that spot where the Orks didn't build properly. I find that highly suspect. See if that other faction on that spot does the same: not tech/build correctly until you attack. Somethings not right: I tried 3 times and all AIs preformed beautifully.

I would HIGHLY recommend turning off FogOfWar and simply see what those factions are up to.

I did reverse the starting location Thudo. I haven't posted the replay so you didn't know. But yes I did.

In that match from Beta 4, the Necrons are at the starting location where the Orks were during the Beta 3 match. And the Orks are placed, in Beta 4, where the Chaos were in Beta 3 (and the Chaos played properly).

As Arkhan said, there was indeed a bug, so it must had nothing to do with the actual starting location.

[Malkor]

Well I know the monoliths have nothing to do with the AI, since I was experiencing this bug before the DC beta even got in my hands.