30 replies to this topic

[ThetaOrion]

okay now be careful here..

Are we making AI to almost always rape players within 2-3mins or are we making AI to be overall generally challenging and fun? Granted, this may work for pro-players who want the challenge of trying to stop an INSANE AI rush but please note: We could EASILY make rushing AI if we wanted to but why? Then we would totally alienate 90% of the users who will play our Advanced AI mod (novice to below average players).

I think this is good that we could come out with AI RUSHING TEMPLATES for the community which can be imported into our mod to give pro players a massive challenge. I like this idea.. Importable "Rushplates" if you will like Malkor is making and having alot of fun with by getting so very badly ass-handed by his own evil scripts!!!

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That's it exactly, Thud!! You got it.

I don't wan't Malkor's killer builds to completely replace Arkhan's. That's not what I want, and I'm sure that 90% of your users would be in agreement with me.

Arkhan's more generic build programs are what most of us ordinary players who do Team Play really want. In my Team Play games, I'm not interested in being rushed any more than I'm already being rushed. The periodic Arkhan rush is challenging and frustrating enough for an ordinary player like me. Arkhan's builds are good enough for general use or for the build programs that are installed into the AI Mod by default! For the most part, they don't need any improvement.

However, Malkor's AI RUSHING TEMPLATES are more suited for FFA (Free-For-All) games where the rushing headaches get spread around a bit.

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I think this is good that we could come out with AI RUSHING TEMPLATES for the community which can be imported into our mod to give pro players a massive challenge. I like this idea.. Importable "Rushplates" if you will

And this is the perfect solution. You got it!! You understood what we want!

Go with Arkhan's Build Programs for the default AI Mod intstall. But in Arkhan's AI Customization Program or Control Panel, or in an optional hotfix, give the user community the opportunity to import Malkor's Pro AI RUSHING TEMPLATES instead, so that they can be used whenever a user wants them (for FFA or for Team Play) or removed whenever a user wants them gone and replaced with Arkhan's orginals. The perfect solution.

And, I'm glad that you like the idea, because it will probably happen now!! And, it's a good idea.

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Malkor likes being slaughtered in the first two or three minutes, so he should be able to get that masochistic experience on a continuing basis if he wants. Malkor also likes jamming bamboo splinters into and under his fingernails, we all know. He should be allowed to do his thing!

ThetaOrion likes the huge epic fully-capped fully-tiered games on large maps where the human player can play for hours on end and enjoy the show, so he shouldn't be forced to be slaughtered in the first two or three minutes game after game after game.

Solution: A compromise, "Importable Rushplates" that can be imported or removed at will. Beauty!!

Edited by ThetaOrion, 19 November 2006 - 12:51 AM.

[ThetaOrion]

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Malkor's Insane Builds would be perfectly fine at any difficulty setting and with any mode of play, as long as the user can install them and remove them at will!

Being able to install or remove the RushPlates 'at will' should give the Rushplates the maximum flexibility and usability, and then they could even be played Team Play at the Easy difficulty setting if a user wants to go that route. Or the user doesn't have to install them at all if he doesn't want to do so.

[Malkor]

I'm not building these to replace anything. I'm building them for the option to have tier4 battles in about 10-15 minutes and AI that can withstand a rush and can rush itself. It's not built 100% on rushing in 3-4 minutes with a vehicle, as they also establish a strong economy for mid-game and late-game situations.

Right now I'm struggling to get the necrons to build things... they keep running off and capping stuff instead of getting a pile of generators. :\

edit -

Got a bit better necron responsiveness.

Edited by Malkor, 19 November 2006 - 01:27 AM.

[thudo]

Try:

{ "flag_capture" },
	 { "flag_capture" },
	 { "squad", "necron_builder_scarab_squad" },
	 { "squad", "necron_builder_scarab_squad" },
	 { "squad", "necron_builder_scarab_squad" },
	 { "squad", "necron_basic_warrior_squad" },
 	 { "squad", "necron_basic_warrior_squad" },
	 { "post_builder" }, { "post_builder" },
	 { "building", "necron_plasma_generator", true },
 	 { "building", "necron_plasma_generator" }

This will set the first 2 scarabs to capture and the rest to build stuff. You can also remove the first flag_capture and just have one so the rest of the builders go on buildings. Up to you. Larkin or Arkhan may correct my initial buildorder above. Admittedly, I've always been a little dicey with the script logic of this section.

[Malkor]

So I did some messing with Thudo's suggestion and came up with...

LargeMap =
		{
			{ "post_builder" },
					{ "flag_capture" },
						{ "squad", "necron_builder_scarab_squad" },
					{ "squad", "necron_builder_scarab_squad" },
						{ "squad", "necron_builder_scarab_squad" },
						{ "squad", "necron_builder_scarab_squad" },
					{ "squad", "necron_basic_warrior_squad" },
					{ "squad", "necron_basic_warrior_squad" },
					{ "post_builder" }, { "post_builder" },
						{ "building", "necron_plasma_generator", true },
						{ "building", "necron_plasma_generator" },
						{ "building", "necron_summoning_core" }

Which works extremely well in tier1.

-- March of the Damned
			{
				{ 1, 0, 0, 0, 1,	"Rush", 	"Prepare" },
				{ 3, 0, 0, 0, 2,	"Unit",		"necron_basic_warrior_squad" },
				{ 1, 0, 0, 0, 5,	"Unit",		"necron_builder_scarab_squad" },
				{ 1, 0, 350, 0, 1,	"Building",	"monolith" },
				{ 1, 0, 20, 0, 2,	"Building",	"necron_plasma_generator" },
				{ 1, 0, 120, 0, 1,	"Building",	 "necron_summoning_core" },
				{ 3, 0, 0, 0, 3,	"Unit",		"necron_basic_warrior_squad" },
				{ 1, 0, 20, 0, 3,	"Building",	"necron_plasma_generator" },
				{ 1, 0, 125, 0, 1,	"Building",	"necron_turret" },
				{ 1, 0, 300, 0, 1,	"Addon", 	"addon_necron_hq_1" },
				{ 1, 0, 60, 0, 4,	"Building",	"necron_plasma_generator" },
				{ 1, 0, 125, 0, 1,	"Building",	"necron_turret" },
				{ 2, 0, 175, 0, 1,	"Unit",		"necron_lord_squad" },
				{ 1, 0, 100, 0, 6,	"Building",	"necron_plasma_generator" },
				{ 1, 0, 200, 0, 1,	"Research",	"necron_warrior_boost" },
				{ 2, 0, 350, 0, 2,	"Building",	"monolith" },
				{ 2, 0, 140, 0, 8,	"Building",	"necron_plasma_generator" },
				{ 1, 0, 75, 0, 1,	"TurretAddon",  "addon_necron_list_post_1" },
				{ 2, 0, 150, 0, 1,	"TurretAddon",  "addon_necron_list_post_2" },
				{ 2, 0, 250, 0, 1,   	"Building",	"necron_greater_summoning_core" },
				{ 2, 0, 350, 0, 1,	"Addon",	"addon_necron_hq_2" },

This is where I'm having a bit of problems. The scarabs go hell-bent on capping and building obelisks again, so once he hits tier2, there's a considerable pause in activity until the scarabs return home. Once he hits tier3 all returns to normal. Is there a way to absolutely force two of the scarabs to stay home and have those focus on the home construction while the rest flail off elsewhere? Maybe I can just add part of the tier2 BO to the other section. That seemed to help fixing late summoning cores.

Anyways, this build is pretty powerful but not quite as refined as my IG yet. They get destroyers and heavy destroyers/immortals much faster, and with the early Tomb Spyder you also end up seeing a fair number of attack scarabs running around. Still pretty rush suspectible despite those warriors, though... maybe I'll consider an earlier turret or lord.

One thing I noticed is once they get tier3 and their restored monolith they still seem a bit unwilling to go out and start killing. In one game I got attacked and destroyed, and then the Necrons refused to move on and engage another enemy, giving that enemy the chance to build up and kill them.

Also, it's going to be fun trying to top the new and improved Ork builds. They are truly something fierce. Got a few ideas for them.

edit - Oooh, I got a great idea for teh orkiez...

Edited by Malkor, 19 November 2006 - 06:36 AM.

[ThetaOrion]

I'm not building these to replace anything.

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Well, I would like to be able to replace them, or swap back and forth. I sincerely would like to try a full set of Malkor's rush builds for Free-For-All or 1vs1 play, but then be able to easily go back to Arkhan's more generic builds for Team Play or Large Map Play.

This thing that Malkor is doing interests me.

I want to see what he comes up with for some of the 'less cool' or less rushy factions.

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I still haven't found a build order for the Tau that I like. They just always seem weak, all along, for the longest time even into the higher tiers. I'd like to see what Malkor comes up with for the Tau, actually watch a replay of it and see if he really does come up with a better build order for the Tau.

And, with the Eldar, what do you rush to now, now that the Fire Prism spam in no longer an option? The Fire Prism Spam was the only thing worth rushing to in the Eldar that paid big dividends in the past. Now what is there? Again, I would like to be able to swap in Malkor's rushplates and see if he really had found a better build for the Eldar. The Eldar always suffered on the maps that lacked Slag Deposits, but I don't know if they still do. It would be interesting to see if Malkor can come up with anything good for the Eldar.

The Chaos are actually the strongest or the winningest faction Online in Dark Crusade right now, so I imagine that once they have a real AI, they will do just fine.

And, as Thud keeps saying, it's hard to mess up the Space Marines, although Relic found ways to do it. But, Malkor's Insane builds for the SM and Chaos would be of interest too, especially a dedicated Land Speeder Rush as I and others have already suggested or requested.

So, when Malkor gets done with the Necrons, Orks, and IG, it will be interesting to see what he comes up with for the other factions, because some of them really need it.

[Malkor]

The Tau are going to be my greatest challenge. I don't know a heck of a lot about them and their vehicle tech specs are quite expensive. I'll probably have them go for Hammerheads to take advantage of their ranged aspect and the sheer killing power of these vehicles, along with an early Knarlac.

The Eldar will probably do a combination of early Vypers and Warp Spiders with webway cloaking, so they are fast and able to keep up with the "heavier" tier2 of other races while they get to fire prisms.

Eldar as a whole seem weaker in DC, this is pretty true, so I'll have to cross that bridge when I get to it.

Chaos have lots of options available.

Edited by Malkor, 19 November 2006 - 09:02 PM.

[thudo]

Eldar as a whole seem weaker in DC, this is pretty true, so I'll have to cross that bridge when I get to it.

Are u dafted man? These guys roock! I find they win more time than not. I would say the Orks, Necrons, and IG are a little nerfed and need a slight buff here and there.

[Malkor]

Well, late-game Eldar relied on a lot of fire prisms, and since relic dodged balancing things and went for the lazy way, they got hurt pretty hard. Wraithlords and vypers are okay, but they won't stand a chance against the heavier infantry and tougher vehicles the other factions have going (especially SM). Fire prisms are anti-infantry for the most part, if they had a buff to compensate for the limit it would be a bit better.

Warp spider spam is nothing like it was in WA and they are pretty expensive... and rangers, for some ungodly reason, now have 1 limit and I can't go the anti-morale route now, either.

Pretty tough choices, here. If they can get an early avatar, all will be fine.

[thudo]

Uhmm.. What the ?? Eldar had WraithLords + Brightlances to totally obliterate vehicles (Brightlances can attach to squads thus are nasty to pick off). Then don't get me started on Falcons and Shriekens. Vypers are all around decent but moreso against vehicles. If anything, its the Orks, Necrons, and IG I see the most casulties. Eldar are NO WHERE near any close losing percentage. Ork and IG are by far in that realm. Further, Eldar can hide under Webway shroud and do hit&run.. Still.. agree that Eldar need some minor buffs but Ork and IG certainly. Necrons are fine since Warriors are QUITE useable through the game since they get some nice upgrades.

[ThetaOrion]

Well, all I have is plain vanilla DC to look at, but the Eldar were always the wild card.

The Eldar can be practically indestructible if they are fully-capped and fully-tiered, but I never really saw them get that way except in the Campaign. Eldar can be brutal in the campaign, and the only way to win is to rush with your honorguard early and fast and destroy one of their two bases.

Sometimes, the Eldar will last in Skirmish Mode if they start cloaking their base, but that's rather rare. It can happen, though, on the larger maps.

So, maybe a Rush to Avatar is the only thing, with cloaking of the base?

I don't know. I don't have much faith in the Eldar right now.

The only hope I have is Thud's recent report that the Eldar are lasting and surviving in his AI vs AI tests in the AI Skirmish Mod.

Maybe the Eldar Avatar surrounded by a wall of troops might work. The Avatar still strengthens or boosts the nearby troops. But, you don't see such coordination from Relic's AI, that's for sure.