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Skirmish AI 2.0 Beta 5 - Post Comments In Thread!


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#1 ArkhanTheBlack

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Posted 17 November 2006 - 04:33 PM

Changes:

- Fixed Tau bug

- Fixed buggy Tau and Ork fast tech build program

- Capture plans can deal with stealth units now

- Reactivated the Necron Lord (We'll see if he dies less now...)

- Reduced Wraith rating, but forced the building of one because of his decapping and detecting ability

#2 thudo

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Posted 17 November 2006 - 04:36 PM

Thanks Arkhan! I'll integrate my updated unitstats.ai for all factions as well so you'll see more balanced Eldar and IG vehicle_low and _meds.
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#3 thudo

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Posted 17 November 2006 - 05:46 PM

Update - Placed Build5 including my unitstats.ai changes on the site for the testers.
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#4 Zulgaines

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Posted 17 November 2006 - 07:34 PM

Closer and closer

Posted Image

Be ba ba boda boo, ba ba bada boo.

Edited by Zulgaines, 17 November 2006 - 07:35 PM.


#5 thudo

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Posted 17 November 2006 - 07:36 PM

I've made some more unitstats.ai changes - will appear in Build6 before I start playtesting changes.
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#6 LarkinVB

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Posted 18 November 2006 - 12:55 AM

Had a cool 3vs3 all AI and can just say : Great work, guys.

Some observations : Necron lord is often teleporting short distances for attack leaving no teleport to disengage. Another time he was teleporting to safety though he was nearly full strength. I also observed attack jumps/teleports when the target was very weak (single IG squad with just one trooper left). I also observed the tau target marker ability cast upon a builder which is a waste, right ?

Make the necron lord try to escape less often like this and make single jumpers only jump attack for melee if their health is > 0.8 and you will have a good balance for him to escape more often.

function NecronLordTactic:EmergencyTeleport()

	-- Check if we can jump
	if (not self.squad_ai:CanJump() or self.squad_ai:GetHealthPercentage() > 0.7) then
		return
	end
	
	-- Check health
	local vSquadPos = self.squad_ai:GetPosition()
	if (self.squad_ai:GetHealthPercentage() > 0.1) then
		
		-- Check situation
		local iEnemyStrength, iAlliedStrength = cpu_manager:GetArmyStrengthAtPos(vSquadPos, 50)
		if (iEnemyStrength < 700 or iEnemyStrength < 2 * iAlliedStrength) then
			return
		end
		
	elseif (not cpu_manager.terrain_analyzer:HasThreat(vSquadPos, 35)) then
		return
	end
	
	-- Try to teleport to save position
	self:MoveToDisengage(true)
end

Edited by LarkinVB, 18 November 2006 - 01:52 AM.


#7 Zenoth

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Posted 18 November 2006 - 12:39 PM

My first observations for Beta 5 are focused on the Necrons. I must say right away that this build is the best so far, especially for the Orks. So I had a match in Testing Grounds once again, same settings as other tests from beta 3 and 4.

---

Alright, for the Necron, the first point would be:

º Necron Lord Teleports to safety when almost full health º

As mentioned by Larkin already, but I wanted to confirm it from my own test, so that it wouldn't be considered just a rare case scenario.

However I saw the Necron Lord teleporting for no actual reasons, and it certainly wasn't to avoid destruction from enemy attacks.

From the Necron's starting location, to the East, there is a Relic. The Tau gained control of it at a point, and the Tau builders built a post on it. The Necron Lord teleported to it from the starting location, and attacked it. But at a certain moment, he simply disengaged, when no enemies were around, and did so at nearly full health. A squad of Necron Warriors were also on their way to that Relic only seconds later. Then the Warriors and the Lord all finished the job together. As I said though, the Lord just had no reasons to teleport.

Here, screen shots showing the moment in question.
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Also, related to teleporting outside of danger and combat at nearly full health, I noticed it happened when the Tau Commander assisted by other Tau units (a small attack force, nothing huge) attacked the Necron base. The Necron Lord was coming back from its "death" at the Tau base, and was running back at the Necron base. On its way there, he met the Tau Commander, and it (the Necron Lord) suddenly decided to teleport without actually engaging the Tau Commander, and since the Necron Lord just spawned back he was nearly full strength. Also, not only did he teleport without fightning the Tau Commander, but instead of teleporting somewhere into the base, he moved to the Relic east of their base. By moving there it was a risk, since other Tau units could have passed by to assist the initial attack by the Tau, so if the Lord would have wanted to go from the Relic to the base once more then he could have met Tau units on its way. Of course the last part might be related to the map layout, but the teleporting behavior (and not the actual location chosen for the teleport) isn't necessarily "right", if I can say.

Here I took a screen shot after he disengaged against Tau's Commander and teleported to the Relic.
Posted Image

º Build orders for Economy ? º

I leave this as a question, and just wanted to point at what I noticed. Personally I ain't a very good Necron player, and what I'm about to mention could just be the result of a build order decision, randomly chosen between others that are different, and resulting in a better economy (or worse, depending on their decisions of course).

Right when the match started I noticed the Scarab builders (four of them were built in a row, if it matters to mention) perhaps "decided to" (between a list of different build orders/programs) go with what I'd call a "turtling" build (to help teching faster and stay focused on that I'd presume). I might be entirely wrong. Keep in mind that I ain't posting this with the whole thing being a "bug" in mind. I just want to be enlightened, and perhaps it'll help me understand their early game build orders a little more.

So they built only one Plasma Generator for approximately 2:45 minutes. The 2nd Generator was initiated at around that time, 2:45 or 2:46. The Sacarbs opted to go with CL's and of course mostly LP's when it started, and also ended up building two or three Obelisks quite early (all that before the 2nd Plasma Generator went on-line). I found that strange, since most players I see on-line playing as them usually go with at least two Plasma Generators from the start, as soon as they can.
Posted Image

I know that the Necron's "requisition" serves as a Time boost of some sort, accelerating their build/train time and technology/ability research times. That's cool. That's also why I just want to make sure that such an early game building behavior in their build order, in their priorities was just a choice, and not actually forced upon them. The Necrons lost to the Tau in that match, and I can't help but think that their early game building and training priorities behavior was the main (albeit not the only one) reason for their demise.

In other words, I would say that the Necrons, at least in that test, were definitely lacking aggressiveness. They never actually gathered properly for a rush, or even any sort of coordinated attack against the Tau. Probably not because they aren't capable of doing just that, but, as I said, because their early game economy, I personally believe, slowed them down considerably overall.

During the match, the only time they attacked was because the Chaos also attacked. And the Chaos found themselves alone more than anything, since the Necrons went backtrack as the fight went on, to "gather", only to go back to the fight after one unit gathered with a specific group that were helping the Chaos in the first place. But more on that below.

º Necron Lord does not react to invisible enemies º

Similar to the case I showed with Beta 4's Ork's Slugga Boys that weren't having any sort of reactions to being attacked by a Tau's Stealth Suit. It was very similar this time, but with the Necron Lord. However he was not standing by, by an LP or something, like the Sluggas, he was instead moving around, and he got shot at by invisible units while running, however with no reactions as I mentioned. Simply ignoring it, and going to point B while loosing health (although slowly, but the point ain't there).

º Necrons gather too often for negligible reinforcements º

That, during that test, happened quite regularly. I wouldn't call it a "back and forth" behavior this time around, although it might seem to be so at first glance. But if I watch it more carefully I can clearly see that, for example when they went backtrack to a point closer to their base after going for enemies, it meant that they were just doing so to meet with a single, or more friendly units, and then proceeded to the location their originally wanted to go to.

I'll take the best example from the test in question here.

The Chaos started an assault against the Tau (they regularly helped the Necrons during the game, and they were the reason why the Necrons didn't die earlier) at their base, and the Necrons "followed" the Chaos, and made themselves part of the fight.

There was a problem however. At a certain point during the fight, half of the Necron Warriors taking part of that assault separated from the other half and went backtrack (those going back weren't dying out at all) to the LP located between their own base and the Tau base. They stood there for a couple of seconds, only to "go back to the fight" with their reinforcement. Their reinforcement however was only consisting of a single Destroyer unit that didn't help a thing, since their help (the help of the Necron Warriors) was needed right there at the Tau's door those same couple of seconds earlier when they decided to go back to the LP and abandon their brethren to the Greater Good and its allies.

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And that assault was disastrous. It miserably failed, and it was the only "true" Necron's attack. The other part of the game was spent by them on dancing around with enemies forces and defending themselves when under attack at their base. As I said earlier, overall it was a superb lack of aggression from them overall.

º Necron Lord's attack priority might have to be revised º

At a certain point the Necron Lord decided to teleport into the Tau base, at its west entrance, during a small assault by the Chaos and a couple of Necron Warriors. But the silent Lord decided to go for the nearest LP, inside the base, right by the mêlée, and attack it, instead of destroying those defenseless Broadsides, or any other military units to that matter.

And to add humiliation to the lovers of silence and death, the Lord thought it was perhaps better to leave the almighty LP alone after all, and to not try its powers on any nearby enemies. Only to go back to a further location and await for "reinforcements". The second shot shows he went back almost the its own base's Monolith, and barely wait for the almost ready Necron Warriors and then go back to the Tau base only to fail once more.
Posted Image
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He also did something similar, later during another similarly small assault against the Tau base, and that time he went for the Tau Barracks, even though he'd have had the choice to go against military units, mostly the Eldar forces present to help the Tau. Here, he is seen quiting the battle after hitting the barracks a few times.
Posted Image

---

And then they met their doom fast enough.
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As far as the Orks go, they did very well. Much better than Beta 3 and 4. However there might be a few things worth mentioning still. I will come back with more details when I can concerning them.

That's about it for now for the Necrons.

#8 Malkor

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Posted 18 November 2006 - 07:06 PM

This was quite a cool event.

I'll see if I can locate how they accomplished this.

Not sure if it was a result of me playing on LAN or not, though. Can't find anything in their BO that might suggest something like this...

I bet it had to do with the map, now that I think of it. I'm gonna give it another go and see what inanity I can cause.

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Edited by Malkor, 18 November 2006 - 07:28 PM.


#9 thudo

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Posted 18 November 2006 - 07:29 PM

I'll see if I can locate how they accomplished this.

Very VERY rare bug. I haven't seen that in a VERY long time since before Build1 methinks.

Zenoth - outstanding reporting as always. I'm not sure what you experienced - did it happen again 2-3 times on the same map? Seems odd but yer reporting is QUITE invaluable!

One thing I would recommend is this:

-- When ALL turrets are built, please ensure they face the enemy. Many times I see them behind an HQ. I believe when beside an LP they are ok.

I might also suggest having all vehicle buildings OR any building we can designate like BaseBack to be built facing the enemy. That way, there is a better chance larger vehicles might not get stuck. Still.. we can discuss this.
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#10 Malkor

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Posted 18 November 2006 - 07:34 PM

Turrets behind the HQ can actually be helpful, since they are harder to reach and have more of a chance to do some damage. A good example is my older orks vs necrons game, where that one turret killed quite a few orks because it was situated in an area they couldn't reach (behind a LP and a monolith or something iirc).

#11 thudo

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Posted 18 November 2006 - 07:37 PM

True.. I guess that makes sense. I'm still wondering about vehicle buildings trying to get them to be on the periphery of a base rather than sandwitched in the center somewhere. Granted, maps like 4p_Biffys Peril won't be alot of help. :(
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#12 Malkor

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Posted 19 November 2006 - 12:00 AM

Right now the biggest problem is the scarabs running off to cap everything instead of staying to build. Often behind enemy turrets. The necrons have a hard time building or teching because their workers aren't there to get the job done.

#13 ThetaOrion

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Posted 19 November 2006 - 12:07 AM

1) No, Biffy's Peril is a lost cause. You just write that one off. I don't know of anyone who really plays it -- once or twice is enough.

The IG can never tier up on that map -- no place to build all of their extra buildings, and if they do try to build them, then none of their tanks can ever get to the front line. Frustrating all the way around.

The Tau have quite a few buildings to build and they are relatively large as well, and I imagine Tau might not be able to fully tier and build on Biffy's Peril either.

2) But, on most other maps, vehicle buildings on the periphery! :thumbsdownsmiley:

I'm glad to see that you are still thinking about it and taking it seriously, because Ubers aren't the only thing getting trapped between buildings on some of these games I'm experiencing.

3) Of course, for some of those things that get trapped, if you do the periodic check to see if they can jump or teleport, you can often get them out into the open and on their way after a jump or a teleport. It looked to me as if you are working on that possibility as well!! Kudos!

It would have been nice in my last Winter Gauntlet game if the Relic AI would have teleported the AI ally's Monolith someplace else. That restored AI monolith was stuck in the gateway so that nothing could get out of the castle. I had to delete another set of gates and go out another way. A lot of extra work and waste. I think AI ally's restored monolith just sat there the rest of the game and never moved again.

#14 LarkinVB

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Posted 19 November 2006 - 11:10 AM

I find that the AI has a problem running into the enemy with its ranged troops instead of stopping some distance away and fighting it out. Complete squads get anihilated this way.

Arkhan, I reactived cpu_manager.terrain_analyzer:HasThreatOnPath() with no crash yet. Are you sure it is still causing problems ?

#15 ArkhanTheBlack

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Posted 19 November 2006 - 12:01 PM

I find that the AI has a problem running into the enemy with its ranged troops instead of stopping some distance away and fighting it out. Complete squads get anihilated this way.

Yes, I got the same impression. It's okay if they do it on a basic move, but I'm pretty sure they sometimes do it on an attack move, too. But I fear this problem is out of reach for us. The Relic hardcoded routines manage the stop for attack behaviour.

Arkhan, I reactived cpu_manager.terrain_analyzer:HasThreatOnPath() with no crash yet. Are you sure it is still causing problems ?

I didn't try it yet! But it's map dependent. If it survives 10 games on mountain trail without crashing then I'd consider it save. At least this was my test condition back in the 1.7 AI.

#16 LarkinVB

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Posted 19 November 2006 - 12:39 PM

Yes, I got the same impression. It's okay if they do it on a basic move, but I'm pretty sure they sometimes do it on an attack move, too. But I fear this problem is out of reach for us. The Relic hardcoded routines manage the stop for attack behaviour.


I have the impression that they often do basic moves instead of attack moves. I just observed two landspeeders moving right into the middle of the enemy just to retreat by dance code. I'm pretty sure it was no attack move. Can you doublecheck that there is no basic move when it should attack move. I remember it was much better some versions back.

#17 LarkinVB

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Posted 19 November 2006 - 12:51 PM

More observations. The allied AI has still the tendency to run right into/through attackers to support allies getting killed on the move. Perhaps this is also related to move/attackmove problems and it often did kill the complete support army. No support is even better if it can't manage to stop in time.

Why does b5 still favor Tau kroot build ? It is the weakest Tau build with the biggest chance to happen. Never saw any successfull kroot build at all yet.

Edited by LarkinVB, 19 November 2006 - 12:53 PM.


#18 ArkhanTheBlack

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Posted 19 November 2006 - 01:28 PM

Why does b5 still favor Tau kroot build ? It is the weakest Tau build with the biggest chance to happen.

If you read the Tau guides you will notice that they all say that the Kroot Kauyon path is definitely the strongest Tau path. The Kroot rush has a higher chance since both Standard and Ranged are Ranged Montka paths. Therefore the Kauyon path chance is in fact lower than the Montka one.


I remember it was much better some versions back.

Then you've played another AI than I have.


Can you doublecheck that there is no basic move when it should attack move.

If I really do this, then we'll get a performance drain to probably 1 fps. During an attack, they only do a basic move when they make a gather move. They make a gather move if they are too far away from the army center. Thanks to that, the AI keeps its army together better than in all previous versions. At least that's my impression on the maps I've played so far. On other maps this may vary of course.
The attack move while defending is activated if the AI is close to his or an allied HQ. While close is base to base 1/3 distance to the closest AI. On Kasyr it works very good, but I think on testing grounds it's only mediocre because of the unusual layout. Though they don't switch if they are gathering in defend mode. I've improved the choice of the gather point for beta 6.
What could be done is increasing the attack move in defend move to half the base-to-enemy range. This might work. Further maybe skipping the entire gathering for defense, though I don't think that's wise.

Edited by ArkhanTheBlack, 19 November 2006 - 01:29 PM.




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