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Skirmish AI 2.0 Beta 7 - Post Comments In Thread!


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#1 ArkhanTheBlack

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Posted 22 November 2006 - 12:29 AM

Okay, that's the silver beta. No new features from now on, only bug fixes.

Changes:

- Implemented a detector system for support detectors like Necron scarab builders and SM skull probes. In case of stealth troops or buildings, one will join the attack or defense force and try to stay close to the action.

- Entrench bug fixed (Thanks to Zenoth for reporting! :) )

- Attack bug fixed (Again thanks to Zenoth for reporting! :p )

- Necron Bigger Generator Bug fixed (Thanks to Malkor for reporting! :D )

- Included Thudos single player unit stats for campaign compatibility (This requires some extra testing!)

- Donation code improved by Larkin

- Assassination code improved

- Fixed save pos bug

- And some smaller fixes...


Have fun!!!

#2 thudo

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Posted 22 November 2006 - 05:58 AM

New Build is NOW up and ready for your inspection!

Remember to simply unzip to your \<dark crusade main folder>\dxp2\data folder to overwrite all three folders.
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#3 thudo

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Posted 23 November 2006 - 05:29 AM

Testers..

Lets move foward and test the above new updates to the AI.

We especially need the CAMPAIGN AI looked at and need this question answered:

In the DC Campaign, as a Chaos player are you ever able to build a DaemonPrince (Advanced)? Or have you seen on during the campaign? We're having a slight problem adding it in to our AI for use in the campaign. Its reporting an error when certain prereqs aren't met to build chaos wargear whenever we add the DaemonPrince Advanced to the unitstats.ai. Very odd. No other unit from any of the other factions causes this. Just curious if this is something we should just ensure is not part of the Advanced Campaign AI.

So lets get testing folks!!
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#4 Malkor

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Posted 23 November 2006 - 06:19 AM

The Daemon Prince is not built in the campaign per se. Once your Chaos Lord is maxed out in wargear he is REPLACED by the daemon prince.

#5 thudo

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Posted 23 November 2006 - 06:39 AM

Interesting.. Thanks Malkor.
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#6 ArkhanTheBlack

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Posted 23 November 2006 - 10:31 AM

So in other words: We have to include the unitstats for the advanced demon prince to stay compatible.

#7 thudo

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Posted 23 November 2006 - 02:51 PM

Problem is: if its complaining about its addition then something is wrong with Relic's code. It wasn't uncommon when integrating AI to a user faction mod that if this "prereq error" showed up in the console it always had to do with broken code pointing to a branch of the tech tree which should have been first closed. DoW AI can many times find breaks in a DoW mod where the dev did not expect.

Further, since we had the DC campaign unitstats, where in the original rgds for DC does it try to access the campaign AI using its own unitstats.ai? I don't see that. I only ever saw the skirmish/mp AI and a \metamap folder contained also there but no other references, AI-wise, for the campaign AI. Anyone find it in the SGA files or elsewhere?
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#8 ArkhanTheBlack

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Posted 23 November 2006 - 04:33 PM

Well, I'm all open ears for alternative solutions. But at the moment I've no idea how to solve the problem other than just ignoring the error message. Who knows, maybe it only shows up in development mode..., and so far the message itself seems to be harmless.

#9 thudo

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Posted 23 November 2006 - 04:44 PM

Err.. try the game without the "-dev" switch and then play and bring the console down. Does the console still show the error? Right now.. I'm inclined to believe we do not need the entry for the chaos unitstats.ai. However, someone needs to play the Chaos in the later campaign to see what happens.
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#10 ArkhanTheBlack

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Posted 23 November 2006 - 06:47 PM

Err.. try the game without the "-dev" switch and then play and bring the console down. Does the console still show the error?

Sadly, yes! :(

I'm inclined to believe we do not need the entry for the chaos unitstats.ai.

I can give you a guaranty that the AI will crash as soon as this unit will appear on the battle field. I know the AI good enough to say that. For example as soon as the army strength of the faction with the demon prince is requested, the AI will check out with an assert error.

#11 thudo

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Posted 23 November 2006 - 06:54 PM

Hmm.. but how does Relic access this file via their own unitstats? Something is odd here. Certainly they need to call the DaemonPrince Advance's unitstats as well from somewhere? This is where we'll have our answer.
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#12 ArkhanTheBlack

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Posted 23 November 2006 - 07:43 PM

They don't need the unit stats if they never request them from a unit. We could reach such a compatibility too, if we check all unit stats requests in the AI for nil.
I don't know exactly what Relic uses for their campaign AI, since it's definitely scripted to some degree in certain maps. For a definite answer you might contact one of your Relic contacts.
For me the campaign compatibility is a bonus, the skirmish mode is our main priority.

#13 thudo

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Posted 23 November 2006 - 08:18 PM

Waiting a response from my internal Relic contact.. I've never seen any direct campaign AI integration except through that \metamaps folder. Thats it. No links to any of the single player units. Waiting on Relic.
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#14 Malkor

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Posted 23 November 2006 - 08:33 PM

I have a save game AS Chaos in which I have my chaos lord upgraded, I think. What do you want me to do with it?

#15 thudo

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Posted 23 November 2006 - 08:35 PM

Try to load the campaign prior to the session where you see the DaemonPrince. Use our latest AI build as mentioned. Try and see what happens when the DP shows up and if the game crashes or not. This is key. Perhaps bring down the console before and after this event and watch what happens. I'd like a copy of that saved game file too. :p
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#16 LarkinVB

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Posted 23 November 2006 - 09:15 PM

Some necron vs tau observations, 3vs3 all AI on bloodshed alley.

1. Necrons are too slow building generators at gamestart. I watched some expert necron replays and often necron players have 5 generators at 3min mark. AI doesn't have to do this but they are too slow. They have excessive resources and can happily use them to build generators and improve their econ.

2. Necrons are too slow building their last LP upgrade. Experts do build them really early sometimes. Arent't they providing necron cap too ? I had a necron with +240 power and power > 1200 (donating constantly) who still had 17 infantry and 11 vehicle cap. No necron went beyond 11 vehicle cap at all the whole game ! This seems to be buggy and really does handicap necron late game.

3. What for is necron saving up 1200+ power if he doen't use it for this special expensive 1000 power build (no idea what it is as I don't play the game). The middle necron had +240 power and > 1200 but he was not using it for his big builds. He had a big generator.

It seems that necron do need a different generator/LP3 strategy than other races.

4. Tau do build up power too fast and should better slow this down a bit in favor of more early units. I'm still not convinced that Kroot path is valid against necrons. At least they should build more krootox (or whatever is their name) which are imba and spammable. I rarely see them at all and not in sufficient numbers.

Edited by LarkinVB, 23 November 2006 - 09:16 PM.


#17 thudo

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Posted 23 November 2006 - 09:31 PM

1. Necrons are too slow building generators at gamestart. I watched some expert necron replays and often necron players have 5 generators at 3min mark. AI doesn't have to do this but they are too slow. They have excessive resources and can happily use them to build generators and improve their econ.

I'm not sure but I've tried 1vs1 with Necrons with Arkhan's improved buildorder and they constantly win far more now than not. I try on various maps with various factions played against and consistently their early buildorder is stellar (especially if a slag depot is around then :p ). Further, I've noticed the Necrons have ALOT of power to spend at gamestart then before Arkhan made the changes coupled with the fact the Necrons are doing better now = not sure we need to change anything do we?

2. Necrons are too slow building their last LP upgrade. Experts do build them really early sometimes. Arent't they providing necron cap too ? I had a necron with +240 power and power > 1200 (donating constantly) who still had 17 infantry and 11 vehicle cap. No necron went beyond 11 vehicle cap at all the whole game ! This seems to be buggy and really does handicap necron late game.

LP addons cost power. Power better spent on troops in the field or more power plants. Granted, a Tier1 LP addon for Necrons gives em the special attack ability but unsure about higher cap. Regardless.. the increased cap is NOT needed as most maps have enough LPs to allow for a large Necron army anyway. If the Necrons don't have enough cap, blame the map: I see it too many times the map is the problem.

3. What for is necron saving up 1200+ power if he doen't use it for this special expensive 1000 power build (no idea what it is as I don't play the game). The middle necron had +240 power and > 1200 but he was not using it for his big builds. He had a big generator.

Only big build is the 1000power for the Restored Monolith. Since you can only have ONE monolith thats your answer - Necrons just consume power on troops and reinforcements when they start having less to spend and more to save. Seen that too when the Monolith shows up.

4. Tau do build up power too fast and should better slow this down a bit in favor of more early units. I'm still not convinced that Kroot path is valid against necrons. At least they should build more krootox (or whatever is their name) which are imba and spammable. I rarely see them at all and not in sufficient numbers.

Again.. pit any faction against Tau and Tau will disproportionately will win the day. Its sad how powerful they are. I usually don't play against em as they have powerful long range gun that rock too much. I have also found their early power gents do nothing to affect their early army production. They spit out troops just as quick.
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#18 Malkor

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Posted 23 November 2006 - 09:48 PM

Try to load the campaign prior to the session where you see the DaemonPrince. Use our latest AI build as mentioned. Try and see what happens when the DP shows up and if the game crashes or not. This is key. Perhaps bring down the console before and after this event and watch what happens. I'd like a copy of that saved game file too. :p



Well this is as chaos, not vs...

I think this is it. Not sure.

Attached Files



#19 LarkinVB

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Posted 23 November 2006 - 10:01 PM

Thudo you don't get my point. NecronBuildBaseStrategy:EvaluateSquadCap() is broken as it does not take into account that the addons are needed to increase squad/vehicle cap.
The map can't be blamed while necrons with +240/1200 power won't build beyond 17/11 cap limits but is donating instead. It is plainly broken. Period.

I have no idea why you try to defend broken stuff while it is pretty obvious. Check NecronBuildBaseStrategy:EvaluateSquadCap() and you will see it won't check addons while all other races try to increase their cap to max.

Same for early necron power gens. Why spare power which can be used to build generators to add much more power in the long run ? It is plain math.

Same for tau kroot build.

I just feel like discussing turret farms with you 2 years ago. You try to defend stuff which is not good. I'm sure you will agree in january.
Believe me, please. I know what I'm talking about. If Tau decide to go kroot path they should at least build their strongest unit in numbers.

Edited by LarkinVB, 23 November 2006 - 10:03 PM.


#20 LarkinVB

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Posted 23 November 2006 - 10:45 PM

addon_necron_hq_2 is no standard build in Necron warrior strategy. Is this intentional ?



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