41 replies to this topic

[Thorontur]

I just played a few games with one of my good friends on TEA. Both of us are experienced players with BfME and from that experience with former patches we had the chance to discuss the changes that the Elves may need for the mod to be balanced to satisfaction. (or at least ours ) Here's some notes that I'd like to point out for discussion:

Isen > Elves

This matchup just goes without saying. All that a decent Isen player has to do is do a pit start --> lumber mills --> 1-2 uruks from pit and send all the hordes straight to the Elven base, cast WC and wtfpwn his castle. What defence does the Elf player have? Well, none. :( With WC, a mirkwood scout battalion wouldn't even kill one uruk horde.

The solution to this case is to a.) decrease outer defensive flets to around 300 and/or b.) set their build times to about that of the FoD sentry towers. Cel or anyone, I don't have a stopwatch to check the build times of Elven defensive flets but an Elven player certainly won't be able to get a flet up in time to even hinder a decent uruk rush. Maybe if we can find a way for the Elves to have a suitable counter to Isen, this matchup can be fair.

Gondor > Elves

This matchup is almost reasonable so far since Gondor stables and cav are equal to the Elves in cost, but now that Gondor has three hobbits and two soldiers to fight the Elves' single mirkwood scout battalion, the Elves are going to have a hard time keeping their economy alive in this situation.

The only ideas I would have here is to: a.) increase the health of orchards so that they aren't destroyed so quickly and/or b.) give the Elves a new soldier unit that is the equivalent of Rohan peasants in stats and is built from the Mirkwood Lookout Tower. They could cost 150 and be reasonably fast but still not be as powerful as Gondor soldiers.

Rohan > Elves

This matchup is also okay in balance but if Rohan peasant spams and harasses Elves then yet again, the Elves are dead. Yes a mirkood scout can kill a single oncoming peasant battalion as long as the archers are in skirmish formation, but if you have one MS battalion defending your multiple orchards then you're just toast. I think if the Elves did an orchard --> MLT start then they might be able to get 1-2 extra mirkwood scouts out to defend their outer settlements and be okay.

The same idea with Gondor comes up: give the Elves a soldier unit that is cheap and weak but is still efficient enough to keep the Elven economy alive.

Elves > Mordor

Rightfully so this is the way this matchup should be. I find no serious imbalances that gives the Elves an overpowered advantage over Mordor. The only problem Mordor could possibly have in my opinion is if the Elves did an orchard --> MLT start and made a few extra mirkwood scouts, then sent each battalion near a Mordor lumber mill and sniped at the laborers. Or maybe that is too Op?

Well these ideas are just things I wanted to throw out there, not as any sort of negative critizism since I know TEA is still in the beta stages. And don't get me wrong, the Elves and heroes are what gives TEA its true glory. But if the mod wants to go as far as "the BfME 2 of BfME," I just think some balance work would really help.

Discuss!

[Elvenlord]

Gondor soldiers and the hobbits are too slow to keep up with the scouts, they shouldn't get hit, it is all about micro. By the time they have the hobbits you should have more scout, or if they went just all hobbits in the begining then they will have a very slow economy
The peasent spam is hard, but can be controlled, esp. if you creep early with your scouts, then make more.
The uruk-hai are nearly unstopable though, since they are as fast as the scouts. I haven't played a human isen yet though, so we wil see

[Thorontur]

^^You speak the truth but I'll try and get some reps so I can explain it better.

[Olorin]

That seems about right, though a new unit for the Elves . The Elves have (except for Rohan who has the Ents as an extra) the same number of units as the other good factions. And as for the balance issues, unless you've explored every strat that the Elves use (I haven't been able to play; computer problems ) then try some other strats. Celeglin has mentioned some that should work universally (i.e. no matter which faction you're up against).

[Elvenlord]

That would probably be the scout spam

[Olorin]

Exactly, and combine that with a few Flets and you have an all-round good and flexible defense/offense .

Edited by Olorin, 23 December 2006 - 05:34 AM.

[adummy]

allow me to join

Isen > Elves

The solution to this case is to a.) decrease outer defensive flets to around 300 and/or b.) set their build times to about that of the FoD sentry towers. Cel or anyone, I don't have a stopwatch to check the build times of Elven defensive flets but an Elven player certainly won't be able to get a flet up in time to even hinder a decent uruk rush. Maybe if we can find a way for the Elves to have a suitable counter to Isen, this matchup can be fair.

Isengard is, as of now, the hardest match up for the elves. but this can be avoided if you buy extra scouts and creep in the beginning. then, as soon as you can, buy spearmen and put them in sheild wall, so they gain a nice defensive bonus. The elves really on strugle in the early game against them, but once they get a good army/heroes they can destroy Isengard.

Gondor > Elves

The only ideas I would have here is to: a.) increase the health of orchards so that they aren't destroyed so quickly and/or b.) give the Elves a new soldier unit that is the equivalent of Rohan peasants in stats and is built from the Mirkwood Lookout Tower. They could cost 150 and be reasonably fast but still not be as powerful as Gondor soldiers.

as elvenlord said, Frodo is 300, the same as a scout, Pippin is 100, and Sam is 150 (I think). if you are having gondor's starting army kill you, you really need to rethink the way that you play the elves.

Rohan > Elves

This matchup is also okay in balance but if Rohan peasant spams and harasses Elves then yet again, the Elves are dead. Yes a mirkood scout can kill a single oncoming peasant battalion as long as the archers are in skirmish formation, but if you have one MS battalion defending your multiple orchards then you're just toast. I think if the Elves did an orchard --> MLT start then they might be able to get 1-2 extra mirkwood scouts out to defend their outer settlements and be okay.

build more scouts to kill the peasants. and, if you are lucky, you will gain enough power to get the avari, which puts you at a HUGE advantage over them

Elves > Mordor

Rightfully so this is the way this matchup should be. I find no serious imbalances that gives the Elves an overpowered advantage over Mordor. The only problem Mordor could possibly have in my opinion is if the Elves did an orchard --> MLT start and made a few extra mirkwood scouts, then sent each battalion near a Mordor lumber mill and sniped at the laborers. Or maybe that is too Op?

my suggestion: play more people and add the AI

Edited by adummy, 23 December 2006 - 05:38 AM.

[Elvenlord]

Speak of the devil.........
come play a game with us, join the IRC channel to get a game going

[Olorin]

Don't ask me to play for a while, my computers stuffing up. Wait until next year, I'll most likely be able to play then .

[zimoo]

I've only found Isen to really stretch my skills. All the other sides can simply be out micro-ed (i.e. scouts in ambush formation, running, then firing, then running etc).

[swan]

I'm afraid even good micro won't help 3 or 4 battalions of Scouts if they have to fight with 10 battalions of peasants, and then with Yeoman.
Elves have to creep wargs and trolls as fast as they can, to get acces to Spearman. Without creeping everything's lost. Maybe, to make Elven early game a bit stronger, reduce the cost of Lookout Tower to 200? This 100 resources saved would make a huge difference.

give the Elves a new soldier unit that is the equivalent of Rohan peasants in stats and is built from the Mirkwood Lookout Tower. They could cost 150 and be reasonably fast but still not be as powerful as Gondor soldiers.

But it would make Elven early game so normal and similar to other early games...

Edited by swan, 23 December 2006 - 01:57 PM.

[Celeglin]

Ahhhh... Thank you, guys, for making this thread. I've been really wanting to hear about balance! Before I make any decisions though, I'd really like to hear some more discussion. Keep it up!

The solution to this case is to ... b.) set their build times to about that of the FoD sentry towers.

I have nothing against this. I, myself, have been irrated with the slow build time of flets. I honestly don't know what made me put the build time to its current level, but it's just been like that since the beginning. I'll work on getting a better length decided on.

The only ideas I would have here is to: a.) increase the health of orchards so that they aren't destroyed so quickly and/or b.) give the Elves a new soldier unit that is the equivalent of Rohan peasants in stats and is built from the Mirkwood Lookout Tower. They could cost 150 and be reasonably fast but still not be as powerful as Gondor soldiers.

Elves that are the equivalent of Rohan Peasants and not as powerful as the basic Gondorian infantry??? Noooo way, not touching that. There was a thought to add in a basic melee unit for the Elves (Axes of Lindon) who were speedy and had low defense and high attack, but we decided to hold that off until the expansion because the current set up gave a really unique feel to the Elves (a feeling that will be transfered over to the Rhovanion Elves faction). Furthermore, I like the idea that every Elven unit but the Scouts (and they aren't far off, and with proper use can be absolutely devastating) would be considered an "elite unit" in any of the other factions.

g2g get a hair cut, but I might come back to add more to this wonderful discussion!

[Thorontur]

allow me to join

Isen > Elves

The solution to this case is to a.) decrease outer defensive flets to around 300 and/or b.) set their build times to about that of the FoD sentry towers. Cel or anyone, I don't have a stopwatch to check the build times of Elven defensive flets but an Elven player certainly won't be able to get a flet up in time to even hinder a decent uruk rush. Maybe if we can find a way for the Elves to have a suitable counter to Isen, this matchup can be fair.

Isengard is, as of now, the hardest match up for the elves. but this can be avoided if you buy extra scouts and creep in the beginning. then, as soon as you can, buy spearmen and put them in sheild wall, so they gain a nice defensive bonus. The elves really on strugle in the early game against them, but once they get a good army/heroes they can destroy Isengard.

Gondor > Elves

The only ideas I would have here is to: a.) increase the health of orchards so that they aren't destroyed so quickly and/or b.) give the Elves a new soldier unit that is the equivalent of Rohan peasants in stats and is built from the Mirkwood Lookout Tower. They could cost 150 and be reasonably fast but still not be as powerful as Gondor soldiers.

as elvenlord said, Frodo is 300, the same as a scout, Pippin is 100, and Sam is 150 (I think). if you are having gondor's starting army kill you, you really need to rethink the way that you play the elves.

Rohan > Elves

This matchup is also okay in balance but if Rohan peasant spams and harasses Elves then yet again, the Elves are dead. Yes a mirkood scout can kill a single oncoming peasant battalion as long as the archers are in skirmish formation, but if you have one MS battalion defending your multiple orchards then you're just toast. I think if the Elves did an orchard --> MLT start then they might be able to get 1-2 extra mirkwood scouts out to defend their outer settlements and be okay.

build more scouts to kill the peasants. and, if you are lucky, you will gain enough power to get the avari, which puts you at a HUGE advantage over them

Elves > Mordor

Rightfully so this is the way this matchup should be. I find no serious imbalances that gives the Elves an overpowered advantage over Mordor. The only problem Mordor could possibly have in my opinion is if the Elves did an orchard --> MLT start and made a few extra mirkwood scouts, then sent each battalion near a Mordor lumber mill and sniped at the laborers. Or maybe that is too Op?

my suggestion: play more people and add the AI

Isen- Do you truely think the Elves can get more than 2 MSs, a barracks and a Spearmen battalion ALL in the time that Isen gets 3 uruks and rushes you? First, MSs take longer to build than uruks AND the uruks are not the ones taking time to rank up from creeps.

Gondor- Yes the MSs are fast enough that they just shoot, run, shoot and run to pick off Gondor's soldiers. But w/ 3 hobbits still attacking your MSs while you're working on the soldiers, your battalion is dead. Elves wil have 2 MS battalions by the time all 3 hobbits come but you'll be 1. creeping diff parts of the map and 2. soldiers will just run at your orchard disregarding your MS tactics. Nonetheless you are going to lose an orchard and probably an MS battalion to a similar Gondor rush.

Rohan- Peasants cost 100 and MSs cost 300. Elves have 1 MLT and Rohan has 3-4 farms to produce peasants from. You will NOT get 3 pp just from stopping 5-6 peasant battalions, you might get 1 at best from them but you won't have creeped enough to have Cuivinen Call ready for their spam rush. Again, you're going to be losing an orchard here that will suck your economy.

Mordor- AI is a disgrace and is in no way good practice for these Elven strategies since all the comp does is spam lvl 1 units.


To Cel: FoD sentry towers actually build up pretty fast so defensive flets could build at slightly less than twice the rate of FoD towers. (i.e.- if FoD builds at a minute, Elves would build at a minute and half) (And I still can't get IRC to work properly. )

[swan]

Isengard:
The calculation is simple - Elven player needs 1200 to get first Spearman battalion. One bat of Spearman can stop 2 (or maybe even 3, I have to check it) hordes of Uruks, but Isengard player can get 6 hordes of uruks at the same time. 2 battaloins of Scouts and a Spearmen won't stop even 3 hordes- inteligent Isen player will just surround Spearman (very very slow with SW) with WChanted Uruks and attack Scouts and Orchards . Only creeping a troll or 2 warg lairs will save Elves, and they would have to harras Isengard immediately to win, because after getting Crossbows Isen just slaughters Scouts. I have no idea how to stop it :(

Gondor:
Soldiers and Archers are not so hard to beat, but hobbits protected by Soldiers with Shield Wall kill Scouts (you can't withdraw all time). Spearmen can kill hobbits easily, but they cost 1200 to get - it's Frodo, Sam Pippin and several Soldiers battalions. Increasing Frodo's cost to 500, Sam's to 350 and Pippins to 200 would change something, I guess. And maybe increase Gondor Archery Range cost to 400 - Gondor Archers are cheap basic archer unit compearing to other factions, and this building gives acces to Flaming Arrows.

Rohan:
Stopping peasant spam is hard, but possible. With good micro, using trees(very very important in early game) and ambush formation... but Rohan still outnumbers Elves like 1:6, or even 1:8. Spearmen are a solutin, but I guess 4 Scouts are more usefull than one Spearman battalion.

[Thorontur]

Isengard:
The calculation is simple - Elven player needs 1200 to get first Spearman battalion. One bat of Spearman can stop 2 (or maybe even 3, I have to check it) hordes of Uruks, but Isengard player can get 6 hordes of uruks at the same time. 2 battaloins of Scouts and a Spearmen won't stop even 3 hordes- inteligent Isen player will just surround Spearman (very very slow with SW) with WChanted Uruks and attack Scouts and Orchards . Only creeping a troll or 2 warg lairs will save Elves, and they would have to harras Isengard immediately to win, because after getting Crossbows Isen just slaughters Scouts. I have no idea how to stop it :(

Gondor:
Soldiers and Archers are not so hard to beat, but hobbits protected by Soldiers with Shield Wall kill Scouts (you can't withdraw all time). Spearmen can kill hobbits easily, but they cost 1200 to get - it's Frodo, Sam Pippin and several Soldiers battalions. Increasing Frodo's cost to 500, Sam's to 350 and Pippins to 200 would change something, I guess. And maybe increase Gondor Archery Range cost to 400 - Gondor Archers are cheap basic archer unit compearing to other factions, and this building gives acces to Flaming Arrows.

Rohan:
Stopping peasant spam is hard, but possible. With good micro, using trees(very very important in early game) and ambush formation... but Rohan still outnumbers Elves like 1:6, or even 1:8. Spearmen are a solutin, but I guess 4 Scouts are more usefull than one Spearman battalion.

You mention using Spearmen as a strategy several times but I believe Spearmen are just a copy of Tower Guards with new skin and a few tweaks. If that is true, Uruks>Soldiers>Peasants>Spearmen.

I say that because in BfME the melee units (orcs, soldiers, peasants and uruks) have been made into the counter to pike units (pikemen, tower guards and now spearmen. Mordor soldiers of rhun have special attributes so that they are partly melee and anti-cav). This being said, Spearmen will not work against uruks, peasants and soldiers.

However, I could be wrong and Cel has made Spearmen simply different than TGs.

[Elvenlord]

Yes, they have more health(170) and better armor(I think)
Do you guys even realise the power of even just four scouts have?
Esp. with good micro
You shouldn't lose to hobbits, they are extremly slow
Shield wall gives spearmen 80% more armor, compared to tg's 50%
Uruks should really be the only real problem
If you're really having trouble, get amroth's knights ASAP, they annilate infantry

[Celeglin]

You mention using Spearmen as a strategy several times but I believe Spearmen are just a copy of Tower Guards with new skin and a few tweaks. If that is true, Uruks>Soldiers>Peasants>Spearmen.

Spearmen are both anti-cavalry and have strong resistance to archers. One battalion on lvl 2 SW Spearmen can take out a batt of Uruk Warriors and two batts of Crossbows (who were far apart from eachother, causing the Spearmen to a lot of walking between the two). Spearmen weren't made as an offensive unit: check their build description, they're the "defensive unit of the Elves". They're best when defending an area or group of archers. Currently, they're only big weaknesses (aside from being the only "slow" Elven unit) are power-ranged units (Haradrim, Galadhrim, and Rangers), siege, and Uruk Warriors. The last, I meant to rectify for the current version of the mod, but I don't think I did enough for it. Basically, the Spearmen should be able to trump any other melee horde in one on one (well, I'm not certain about the Galadhrim and Royal Guards), but due to their lack in numbers they're better off defending from a fortified/standing area. By the next release, I hope to make this completely true.

As for the weaknesses of the Elves to rushes... As I've said before, I'm very reluctant to change how the opening game of the Elves plays out, as the majority of people find the unique use of a few stealthy archers as your starting force to be a great part of playing the faction. So how can we make the early game for the Elves at least possible against experienced rushers (as much as a lot of you guys think the Elves can counter them, I'm leaning towards Thorontur's numbers) without buffing up the Scouts or adding in a new, melee unit. I'm not against working on the Flets. In terms of Gondor, I'm not going to increase the price of the hobbits for the simple reason that I like the way the AI uses Frodo and Sam together (EA had a nice thing in which they have the ability to purchase heros in groups and keep them together; unfortunately, high hero costs cause the AI to rarely do it). Don't forget, everything you do to the original factions will upset the balance for the other originals.

Sidenote: It should be known that in terms of numbers, Flets (both on defensive and normal plots) are much closer to the strength of Gondor Keeps, rather than the tiny little Sentry Towers. Keep that in mind.

[Ecthelion]

Against Isengard AI I'd generally get orchards in base at start before getting 2 flets (at the front of the base), then get stables. With stables then get 1 cavalry brigade which can deal with most Uruks. Then Galadriel's mirror for healing of cavalry followed by a standard game. Usually works. Albeit I haven;t tried against players.

[Thorontur]

You mention using Spearmen as a strategy several times but I believe Spearmen are just a copy of Tower Guards with new skin and a few tweaks. If that is true, Uruks>Soldiers>Peasants>Spearmen.

Spearmen are both anti-cavalry and have strong resistance to archers. One battalion on lvl 2 SW Spearmen can take out a batt of Uruk Warriors and two batts of Crossbows (who were far apart from eachother, causing the Spearmen to a lot of walking between the two). Spearmen weren't made as an offensive unit: check their build description, they're the "defensive unit of the Elves". They're best when defending an area or group of archers. Currently, they're only big weaknesses (aside from being the only "slow" Elven unit) are power-ranged units (Haradrim, Galadhrim, and Rangers), siege, and Uruk Warriors. The last, I meant to rectify for the current version of the mod, but I don't think I did enough for it. Basically, the Spearmen should be able to trump any other melee horde in one on one (well, I'm not certain about the Galadhrim and Royal Guards), but due to their lack in numbers they're better off defending from a fortified/standing area. By the next release, I hope to make this completely true.

As for the weaknesses of the Elves to rushes... As I've said before, I'm very reluctant to change how the opening game of the Elves plays out, as the majority of people find the unique use of a few stealthy archers as your starting force to be a great part of playing the faction. So how can we make the early game for the Elves at least possible against experienced rushers (as much as a lot of you guys think the Elves can counter them, I'm leaning towards Thorontur's numbers) without buffing up the Scouts or adding in a new, melee unit. I'm not against working on the Flets. In terms of Gondor, I'm not going to increase the price of the hobbits for the simple reason that I like the way the AI uses them (EA had a nice thing in which they have the ability to purchase heros in groups and keep them together; unfortunately, high hero costs cause the AI to rarely do it). Don't forget, everything you do to the original factions will upset the balance for the other originals.

Ok sweet. This should imply that Spearmen can stand against peasants and soldiers alone, but will need numbers against uruks. For the sake of gameplay I think making changes to units rather than the flets alone would be better.

K, so this all means that spearmen, made from the barracks, will need a way to fit into the Elves' early game appropriately. One solution might be to just give Elves a Spearmen battalion along with the MS, however that wouldn't be fair to Mordor and Rohan as you can just creep with MS and defend orchards with your spears until more MSs come.

If that isn't a good idea then the change must come from the barracks. Here's a list of ideas:

• The barracks costs 600 as of now. Decrease it to 400-450.
• Decrease the build time to a reasonable amount. The Isen uruk pit builds insanely fast so maybe the barracks would be just slightly more since Isen is the one that has to cross the map, not the Elves.
• Decrease the cost of spearmen to possibly 450-500 and also give them a sightly faster spawn time.

If the above changes would be feasible, then Elves can have 1-2 MSs and a spearmen battalion inside and a flet or two in process. Then, with heal on the spearmen and probably the MSs garrisoned in the flets, Isen will not completely destroy the Elven castle and probably just a building or two.

However, the problem is that if barracks are going to be put into an early-game start then the Elves will have to creep AMAZINGLY quickly to have the money to get some flets up for defense. And I think that if we change the barracks, a wonderful start for the Elves in the majority of matchups would be a 2 orchard inside --> 2 orchards outside --> creep --> barracks --> spearmen --> flets.

So would giving the Elves a starting spearmen battalion be a good idea or not?

[Elvenlord]

You're supposed to take our side Cel
I think you underestimate your own faction Cel, but time will tell