16 replies to this topic

[ArkhanTheBlack]

I'm currently reworking the Heroes mod of the sadly recently deceased CutterShane. I've taken only the heart of the mod, the unit experience system and expanded it to offer more flexibility. Since it's also intended to be used by other mods like DowXP and DowPro, I've included none of the other modifications like increased weapon ranges, building time modifications, etc. They would break the gameplay and balancing of those mods.

My heroes rework will allow every race their own XP upgrade table and effects within some limits of course. It will be very easy to modify. The current code is 60% finished and I'd like to release it combined with the skirmish AI 2.2. It will be completely optional of course, but I'd like to expand the AI control panel to allow AI units to start as veteran units .
Since this is only marginal related to the AI I'd like to know if some of the testers are also motivated to test the heroes mod. It shouldn't be too much effort since it's only checking if the unit upgrades work and the FX is shiny enough.

[thudo]

This is insanely fantastic news! Its one of those things that made RTSes like RedAlert2 and Generals HIGHLY replayable and unpredictable when your newly created armies are then faced with veteran enemy units whose stats are increased simply by gaining experience in recent conflicts. Seeing this implemented in DoW is massively overdue and would through all support into this.

Also, how will the AI value highly "veteranized units" over newer weaker units of the same type? OR perhaps it doesn't matter: all units are treated the same on the battlefield as long as they live to tell their tales another day.

Regardless, this is a big deal and am 120% behind this initiative. In fact, I would want ALL MODS out there to support HEROES vet system as it would mean the next level in RTSing other RTSes have already accomplished.

[Tovarich]

Excellent !
Heroes is quite a superb mod and its great to see Cuttershane's work being carried on
It's also cool that you are reworking it for other mods such as Dowxp because I've noticed that when I use the current version of Heroes along with it, the IG a.i. is crippled :( (And it seemed to be the only race affected!)

Btw, Heroes had a kind of garrisoning feature, won't it enter in conflict with the same feature from DowA.I. 2.2 or you removed it already?

Edited by Tovarich, 24 January 2007 - 01:14 AM.

[Zenoth]

This is some superb news Arkhan !

I support this at 200% ! I will be there to test it as soon as it's available for testing. I wonder if Relic has ever actually considered any sort of experience system, say à-la C&C Generals for example, for the Dawn of War series (since the first one). When I first played Company of Heroes I told myself that the veteran-system could have worked quite well in DOW, considering that both games use a similar game-play mechanic (especially for resources, but other things as well).

[Lprsti99]

sounds really good, Arkhan. Only thing I can think of, though, is a little issue that cropped up back when CutterShane was still around (this pertains to Tovarich's post as well)... See, a major problem with the XP system was that if a squad entered a transport or bunker, it lost all of the effects that it had, because the game couldnt remember any effects on the squads once they had been removed from pla. This bug became apparent because another part of the mod, the Fallback mod (the part Tovarich was talking about) automatically garrisonned broken units. This meantm that broken units near a transport (or building, in IG's case) automatically lost the bonus. I understand you took the other mods out, but this would interfere with the AI (if it garrisons/transports) as well as with any tactics involving these things. Cuttershane said there was no way to fix this, but just wanted to bring it to your attention. Either way, I am very excited that you are carrying on Cuttershane's work

[ArkhanTheBlack]

See, a major problem with the XP system was that if a squad entered a transport or bunker, it lost all of the effects that it had, because the game couldnt remember any effects on the squads once they had been removed from pla.

There's a SCAR command Squad_IsInHold( SquadID squad, EGroupID buildingsGroup ) which checks if a squad is in a building, so I think the problem would only occur if the squad enters a transport. If the squad really looses it's squad ID in this case, then that's indeed a hard one. We'll see...

[thudo]

Although one could argue - what are the probabilities of a vet squad actually going into a building/transport? Probably low. In the game's I've played I don't see much garrisoning except for IG going into bunkers.

[Lprsti99]

Aight, just thought I'd bring it to your attention

[Giggily]

Would adding this break using the Heroes Mod with it? Because whenever I play DoW I usually have Heroes running for the added range, artillery targeting, and the shorter capture times and such.

[ArkhanTheBlack]

Just replace the SCAR scripts and you are fine.

[etherdragn]

if a squad entered a transport or bunker, it lost all of the effects that it had, because the game couldnt remember any effects on the squads once they had been removed from pla.

This is a problem whenever a squad is despawned and brought back I think. Tunnels have the same effect.

Im glad theres an effort going on to keep heroes rolling. One thing I think could use an overhaul is the FX of course. Some more subtle custom made FX instead of the normal FX could take away the confusion it causes. I play with FX off because of this, but I'd be interested in helping out in this regard if your interested.

Could be possible to have experience stored across maps in campaign mode?

Edited by etherdragn, 06 February 2007 - 02:53 AM.

[ArkhanTheBlack]

This is a problem whenever a squad is despawned and brought back I think.

It's fixed now!

One thing I think could use an overhaul is the FX of course. Some more subtle custom made FX instead of the normal FX could take away the confusion it causes. I play with FX off because of this, but I'd be interested in helping out in this regard if your interested.

I've indeed picked only a few FX effects from CutterShanes list which aren't too disturbing. What's bugging me is that I know that there are more effects, but I don't know how they are called. To be honest I don't even have a clue how CutterShane figured out the names of the FX files. At the moment I use different auras for small and big sized units.

Some more subtle custom made FX instead of the normal FX could take away the confusion it causes. I play with FX off because of this, but I'd be interested in helping out in this regard if your interested.

If you are a FX designer you're most welcome. Heroes Special is designed to allow a very easy modification of FX, ranks, XP table, etc. If you want to experiment a bit, send Thudo a PM so he can give you access to our beta haven. If you want to try out FX, just give regular units an aura and you'll immediately get some action.

[thudo]

Etherdragn - that would be amazing. I use the current v2.2b3 HEROES mod in conjunction with testing the AI and it totally adds a new dimension to gameplay. Heck.. HEROES works perfectly even with other third-party factions.

The things I would like to see improved with HEROES are more graphical but here are my suggestions:

1) More evident auras and fxs surrounding the squads/vehicles denoting their veterancy. I'd like to see more exaggerted glowing or oscillating fxs especially around squad/vehicles which can obtain LEGANDARY veterancy or commanders which can get to HERO status. Right now, its decent but the enemy needs to kinda know, to a degree, that they are about to send their regular "noobish" troops against a squad that has "lived to tell a tale of great battles".

2) When a squad/vehicle "levels up" I would sorta like to see what benefits it receives on-screen. Not sure this is possible in the UI but as the squad/vehicle increases in veterancy I'd kinda like to see this being culmulatively-added overtime.

+XX% Health
+XX% Regeration (only for squads)
+XX point Morale
+XX% Weapon Damage
+XX% Accuracy

Essentially, it would be useful to see what the total strengths the selected squad/vehicle has.

3) Able to select the middle-left veterency event button which then immediately goes to that squad/vehicle. Still unsure if this will be possible though.

Btw, very happy you didn't allow units to gain RANGE benefits. My gawd I cannot imagine a Legendary or Hero-Level unit being able to outrange the hapless foe. Oh wait.. thats the Tau in DC currently Opps.

[ArkhanTheBlack]

1) More evident auras and fxs surrounding the squads/vehicles denoting their veterancy. I'd like to see more exaggerted glowing or oscillating fxs especially around squad/vehicles which can obtain LEGANDARY veterancy or commanders which can get to HERO status. Right now, its decent but the enemy needs to kinda know, to a degree, that they are about to send their regular "noobish" troops against a squad that has "lived to tell a tale of great battles". biggrin1.gif

Depends a lot on the available FX. Finding auras which aren't to obtrusive was harder than I thought. But since I kept it very mod friendly, the FX at least can be changed in no time.

2) When a squad/vehicle "levels up" I would sorta like to see what benefits it receives on-screen. Not sure this is possible in the UI but as the squad/vehicle increases in veterancy I'd kinda like to see this being culmulatively-added overtime.

I would have done that if the SCAR buttons would have worked. But with the current way, I think it's better to leave it it in the readme. Most effects aren't too hard to remember.

3) Able to select the middle-left veterency event button which then immediately goes to that squad/vehicle. Still unsure if this will be possible though.

Don't think that's possible...

[thudo]

1,2,3) Agreed on all. The major coding features are in-place and it works fabulously. Seeing it working with our AI has always been a dreamland feature. After a week+ of stress testing I must say its quite rock solid.

[etherdragn]

Im just starting to mess with making my own FX.
ive been checking out the ground aura fx and I think it might be a good route.

Im talking about the little circles on the ground for bonuses and for honor guard. It could be possible to make a fx ring that would go inside the honor guard ring (which fits inside the bonus ring). You could make a set of them that would fit together to denote different bonuses or levels. It wouldn't show percentages but you could have a few incremental versions.

As for glows and energy beams it would be cool to have a similar effect but race specialized. Chaos gets reddish/fiery, SM gets holy shine, necron green etc...

Ill take a stab at making something soon.

[ArkhanTheBlack]

Different colors for the various races would be nice although it's not absolutely necessary. I guess your ring FX are very similar to the ones I use at the moment. They are nice since they aren't too obtrusive but noticable. The auras for the vehicles/big targets are more difficult since I didn't found a good one for legendary units. It would be nice to have the same style for squads and vehicles but I'm not sure if that's possible, because the shapes and sizes are so different. In general the player shouldn't be confused by too many too different and/or obtrusive auras. It would be cool if the types of the auras stay the same at higher levels and only get more shiny or some more FX around them. This makes it easier for the player to separate unit rank auras from effect auras.