24 replies to this topic

[ArkhanTheBlack]

Changes:

- Fixed capturing bug

- Fixed and further improved unit building

- Fixed Eldar FoF

- Updated docs

- Fixed game manager dll

[thudo]

Excellent sir! I have to add some tweaks to the Eldar unitstats as the AI doesn't build FDs and Vypers. I will submit my tested changes soon! I'll send the Beta5 up real soon. Otherwise.. yes the unitstats rating system is back to normal again!

Edit: New Build is UP for the testers to examine! Still testing the Eldar unitstats stuff currently on my end and will submit for Beta6..

[ArkhanTheBlack]

Excellent sir! I have to add some tweaks to the Eldar unitstats as the AI doesn't build FDs and Vypers. I will submit my tested changes soon! I'll send the Beta5 up real soon. Otherwise.. yes the unitstats rating system is back to normal again!

There's only one thing with the FD: Especially on maps where the AI's have a bigger generator, they prefer to build brightlances to get rid of the excess power. Forcing the AI to build FD if they've already enough anti vehicle units on the battle field isn't that great. Therefore try to make those tests on a map with lots of requ but less power. This will show if the AI reacts to the lack of power by building FD's. In general the goal is not to build as much different units as possible, but a good combination. make sure they don't build enough FD's since the AI doesn't handle them very good. Brightlances are used much better by the AI.

Edited by ArkhanTheBlack, 11 February 2007 - 06:15 PM.

[thudo]

Yes I'll be checking for this. I might actually increase the rating on the WarpSpiders to 6 so they are more prominent. FDs stay at 5. I'll run some tests.

[Zenoth]

Report for 2.2 Beta 5

Map: Mountain Trail
Players: Me as SM, allied with SM, against Chaos x 2
Difficulty: Hard
AIScar Support: Enabled
Heroes: Enabled
Resources Sharing: Disabled
Resources Rate: Standard
Winner: Me & Ally

Comments: Early scouting units (Scout Marines and Chaos Cultists) hesitate/wait a period of time before capturing LP's.

I just wanted to report this fast. I'm not sure if it was intended as a change, but I presume it wasn't. As soon as I watched the replay that's the first thing I noticed. My ally's Scouts, as well as both Chaos team's Cultists simply stood in front of the LP's they initially wanted to capture. The waiting period lasted around 1:40 to 1:45 minutes, before the first one between them all captured a LP. In other words, neither the Chaos teams or my ally captured a single LP before around 1:40 into the game.

Here are some pictures ...









I suspect the behavior might be the same for all other races, but I haven't tested, and I will in just a moment.

Edit: Added the replay.

Edited by Zenoth, 11 February 2007 - 09:56 PM.

[ArkhanTheBlack]

What a weirdo!

Cultist capture bug and capture hesitation problems were related. I've fixed the issue and sent the new built to Thudo.

[Zenoth]

Ok, tested two other games, and I can say that the Eldar and the Orks also suffer from the same issue.

Necrons, Tau and Imperial Guards did not show any problems according to my tests.

I added the replay in my previous post (replay from the game reported above).

Edited by Zenoth, 11 February 2007 - 09:57 PM.

[thudo]

Eldar unit creation perfection:

},
		}
	},
	{
		name = "Fire Dragon",
		sbp_name = "eldar_squad_fire_dragon",
		ebp_name = "eldar_fire_dragon",
		class = UnitStatsAI.UC_HeavyInfantryMed,
		rating = 5,
		potential =
		{
			{
				name = "eldar_fusion_gun",
				effectiveness = GenerateUnitEffectiveness(3.2,3.5,3.1,4.6,5.7,7.6,7.1,8.1,3.8,3.7,3.5,7.9,6.3,6.0),
				range = UnitStatsAI.RT_Ranged,
			},
		}
	},
	{
		name = "Warp Spider",
		sbp_name = "eldar_squad_warp_spider",
		ebp_name = "eldar_warp_spider",
		class = UnitStatsAI.UC_HeavyInfantryMed,
		rating = 6,
		potential =
		{
			{
				name = "eldar_deathspinner",
				effectiveness = GenerateUnitEffectiveness(5.7,5.6,5.4,5.2,5.0,7.3,7.0,8.0,7.2,6.2,3.9,5.9,5.0,5.6),
				range = UnitStatsAI.RT_Ranged,
			},
		}
	},
	{
		name = "Shuriken Cannon Platform",
		sbp_name = "eldar_squad_grav_platform",
		ebp_name = "eldar_grav_platform",
		class = UnitStatsAI.UC_HeavyInfantryHigh,
		rating = 5,
		potential =
		{
			{
				name = "eldar_shuriken_cannon_grav_platform",
				effectiveness = GenerateUnitEffectiveness(7.9,7.5,7.1,7.1,5.9,2.8,2.1,0.0,6.3,2.6,3.9,4.6,0.0,0.0),
				range = UnitStatsAI.RT_Ranged,
			},
		}
	},
	{
		name = "Brightlance Platform",
		sbp_name = "eldar_squad_grav_platform_brightlance",
		ebp_name = "eldar_grav_platform_brightlance",
		class = UnitStatsAI.UC_HeavyInfantryHigh,
		rating = 5,
		potential =
		{
			{
				name = "eldar_brightlance_grav_platform",
				effectiveness = GenerateUnitEffectiveness(5.2,5.5,4.1,5.6,3.7,7.7,7.4,6.1,5.8,4.7,3.5,7.6,6.2,6.7),
				range = UnitStatsAI.RT_Ranged,
			},
		}
	},
	{
		name = "Harlequin",
		sbp_name = "eldar_harlequin_squad",
		ebp_name = "eldar_harlequins",
		class = UnitStatsAI.UC_Commander,
		rating = 6,
		potential =
		{
			{
				name = "eldar_shrieker_cannon",
				effectiveness = GenerateUnitEffectiveness(3.7,4.6,3.4,3.7,3.7,3.9,2.9,0.0,3.6,2.2,3.6,3.4,2.5,0.0),
				range = UnitStatsAI.RT_Ranged,
			},
			{
				name = "eldar_riveblade",
				effectiveness = GenerateUnitEffectiveness(6.3,6.3,6.3,6.3,6.3,5.1,4.0,3.0,6.3,0.0,9.7,4.0,4.0,4.0),
				range = UnitStatsAI.RT_Melee,
			},
		}
	},
	{
		name = "Seer Council",
		sbp_name = "eldar_squad_seer_council",
		ebp_name = "eldar_warlock_seer",
		class = UnitStatsAI.UC_Commander,
		rating = 7,
		potential =
		{
			{
				name = "eldar_shuriken_pistol_seer_council",
				effectiveness = GenerateUnitEffectiveness(3.5,3.8,2.6,2.9,0.0,0.0,0.0,0.0,2.9,0.0,1.9,0.0,0.0,0.0),
				range = UnitStatsAI.RT_Ranged,
			},
			{
				name = "eldar_witchblade_seer_council",
				effectiveness = GenerateUnitEffectiveness(7.2,8.1,7.6,7.7,7.4,6.4,6.1,5.2,6.8,5.2,5.1,7.1,5.6,5.7),
				range = UnitStatsAI.RT_Melee,
			},
		}
	},
	{
		name = "Farseer (Commander Unit)",
		sbp_name = "eldar_squad_farseer",
		ebp_name = "eldar_farseer",
		class = UnitStatsAI.UC_Commander,
		rating = 8,
		potential =
		{
			{
				name = "eldar_shuriken_pistol_farseer",
				effectiveness = GenerateUnitEffectiveness(3.7,4.6,3.4,3.7,3.7,3.9,2.9,0.0,3.6,2.2,3.6,3.4,2.5,0.0),
				range = UnitStatsAI.RT_Ranged,
			},
			{
				name = "eldar_witchblade_farseer",
				effectiveness = GenerateUnitEffectiveness(6.2,6.9,6.2,7.0,6.5,4.9,5.0,7.3,6.5,7.3,7.0,5.6,3.5,0.0),
				range = UnitStatsAI.RT_Melee,
			},
		}
	},
	{
		name = "Falcon Grav Tank",
		sbp_name = "eldar_squad_falcon_grav_tank",
		ebp_name = "eldar_falcon_grav_tank",
		class = UnitStatsAI.UC_VehicleLow,
		rating = 6,
		potential =
		{
			{
				name = "eldar_shuriken_catapult_grav_tank",
				effectiveness = GenerateUnitEffectiveness(6.9,6.4,6.2,6.3,5.7,5.1,3.6,2.3,5.6,2.3,3.6,4.2,3.2,4.0),
				range = UnitStatsAI.RT_Ranged,
			},
			{
				name = "eldar_starcannon_grav_tank",
				effectiveness = GenerateUnitEffectiveness(7.0,7.1,6.7,7.5,7.3,5.8,2.8,0.3,5.6,0.6,4.1,0.9,1.0,0.4),
				range = UnitStatsAI.RT_Ranged,
			},
		}
	},
	{
		name = "Vyper",
		sbp_name = "eldar_squad_vypers",
		ebp_name = "eldar_vypers",
		class = UnitStatsAI.UC_VehicleMed,
		rating = 6,
		potential =
		{
			{
				name = "eldar_shuriken_catapult_vyper",
					effectiveness = GenerateUnitEffectiveness(6.3,6.5,6.0,6.5,5.6,5.2,4.0,3.0,5.2,2.1,4.5,4.5,3.9,4.0),
				range = UnitStatsAI.RT_Ranged,
			},
			{
				name = "eldar_missile_launcher_vyper",
				effectiveness = GenerateUnitEffectiveness(3.1,3.0,2.2,2.8,2.1,7.4,7.9,6.5,2.8,4.5,2.1,7.0,5.5,5.7),
				range = UnitStatsAI.RT_Ranged,
			},
		}
	},
	{
		name = "Wraithlord",
		sbp_name = "eldar_squad_wraithlord",
		ebp_name = "eldar_wraithlord",
		class = UnitStatsAI.UC_VehicleMed,
		rating = 7,
		potential =
		{
			{
				name = "eldar_heavy_flamer_wraithlord",
				effectiveness = GenerateUnitEffectiveness(6.2,6.2,6.1,6.2,6.8,6.0,6.1,6.7,6.8,3.7,4.5,6.6,4.8,4.5),
				range = UnitStatsAI.RT_ShortRanged,
			},
			{
				name = "eldar_brightlance_wraithlord",
				effectiveness = GenerateUnitEffectiveness(2.6,2.0,2.1,2.1,2.0,8.8,9.5,8.2,5.3,5.3,3.0,7.7,6.3,6.9),
				range = UnitStatsAI.RT_Ranged,

Now everyone should be happy. Eldar AI build the same # of Wraithlords but balances with some Falcon and Vyper support (when required for their roles) and also WarpSpiders are favoured a little more but Firedragons come out when called for their role. Perfect symmetry and I have yet to see these Mofo'ers lose a game. They are now just utterly devastating!!!!

Please include the above into the Eldar unitstats and we'll test in next build.

Edit: OH AND..

2.2b5b is now up on the site with Zenoth's LP capturing bug removed.

[Markoso]

I'll get in some hardcore testing after work, though it sounds like Zenoth already caught the major issue, I'll see if I can't find anything myself

Well, got the testing in, not as hardcore as I'd hoped, but oh well. Played IG on Battle Marshes, no bugs to speak of, though their teching seemed abnormally slow (reviewed the replay for any abnormalities, dunno if it was any specific thing, maybe it was guardsmen being replaced, maybe, will have to go more in depth. On a happier note, Eldar are indeed more vicious then last time, as they managed to stomp me into the dirt on tainted pair. Need to spend more quality time with some other races, soon, soon.

Edited by Markoso, 12 February 2007 - 11:12 AM.

[thudo]

Please re-download current build.. v2.20b5c is now available!

Mostly changes with Eldar unitstats so note the kinds of units the Eldar AI creates. Let us know your experiences.

[LarkinVB]

Replayed the EvC battle which caused problems with 2.2b4 and it was much better. I still think FoF is sometimes not used when it should but it is not that obvious now. Perhaps IsInCombat() is better than IsAttacking(). At least I see slow moving eldars which clearly are not trying to fight, just wanting to move elsewhere. To be honest I found the original routine for FoF much more effecient (not just because I made it ). Remember that FoF won't cause more damage on eldars, just reduce damage they do. Therefore FoF is good on any movement ! No idea what players did not like on original behavior.

I saw all types of eldar (great !) though the AI can't obviously handle firewarrios at all (even players have problems to force them to shoot). I observed them standing around, rarely if ever shooting and always being a waste of resources. Therefore I suggest putting them down on the list and at least limit them to 1 squad if ever.

Found an old problem which is still there. Capturing squads usually stop capturing while under attack if the progress just started. This is NOT true for broken squads. These still continue capturing regardless if being shot to pieces.

Shouldn't broken IG squads bunker too (first) ? I observed IG vehicle building to first research basiliks, then sentinel, then trying to build basiliks instead of skipping sentinel research and build a vehicle right away.

IG did build command squad very late. Eldar was already in its base with farseer and stuff while they only had guardsmen and commissars (perhaps to many of those). Commisar don't seem that good early on with DC.

Excessive use of mines. Mines are fine but when eldar has 12/20 infantry cap it is much better to max cap instead of building 5+ mines.
They also had 2 damaged vehicles too waiting for repair while builders were busy building mines at distant locations. Therefore I suggest to cap mines if squad/vehicle cap max isn't maxed and to only allow one builder at a time to build them.

Edited by LarkinVB, 12 February 2007 - 07:07 PM.

[thudo]

Slight Builder Issue: Anyone noticed that when a second builder comes over to help the first builder finish a building that when the building is complete, the second builder that was coming to help freezes and doesn't move for a minute? The first builder is left to keep building on his own. Is there a way to reset the second builder so he can be kept productive?

[ArkhanTheBlack]

Replayed the EvC battle which caused problems with 2.2b4 and it was much better. I still think FoF is sometimes not used when it should but it is not that obvious now. Perhaps IsInCombat() is better than IsAttacking(). At least I see slow moving eldars which clearly are not trying to fight, just wanting to move elsewhere. To be honest I found the original routine for FoF much more effecient (not just because I made it smile.gif). Remember that FoF won't cause more damage on eldars, just reduce damage they do. Therefore FoF is good on any movement ! No idea what players did not like on original behavior.

I think the original complaints didn't have anything to do with the logic itself, but more with the refresh time delays of the AI's. But the time I reworked the method, I wasn't aware of this problem and I also thought that they got more damage with activated FoF. At the moment, the only difference between out methods is that the movement has priority in your method and the battle in mine (except retreats and dancing). But I do think your are right about the battle status which is not always correct. But the guilty function is IsInCombat and not IsAttacking, I know that from the entrench code which was bugged with IsInCombat and now works fine with IsAttacking. I'll try to change battle status to only check on IsAttacking(). If this helps it's fine, if not then I take over your logic.

I saw all types of eldar (great !) though the AI can't obviously handle firewarrios at all (even players have problems to force them to shoot). I observed them standing around, rarely if ever shooting and always being a waste of resources. Therefore I suggest putting them down on the list and at least limit them to 1 squad if ever.

Yes, they are almost bugged.

I observed IG vehicle building to first research basiliks, then sentinel, then trying to build basiliks instead of skipping sentinel research and build a vehicle right away.

This is a behaviour of the build programs which shouldn't be changed to avoid tech traps and some other serious propblems.

Excessive use of mines. Mines are fine but when eldar has 12/20 infantry cap it is much better to max cap instead of building 5+ mines.
They also had 2 damaged vehicles too waiting for repair while builders were busy building mines at distant locations. Therefore I suggest to cap mines if squad/vehicle cap max isn't maxed and to only allow one builder at a time to build them.

If I should restrict mines to 20/20 then I better throw them out completely. I must admit that I included them more because of the coolness factor and always hoped that Relic buffs them.

Slight Builder Issue: Anyone noticed that when a second builder comes over to help the first builder finish a building that when the building is complete, the second builder that was coming to help freezes and doesn't move for a minute? The first builder is left to keep building on his own. Is there a way to reset the second builder so he can be kept productive?

The builder got stuck somehow since 'helping' builders are not locked and therefore free available for all plans.

[LarkinVB]

Capping mines to max three (one tier1, one tier two and one tier three for example) will keep coolness without hurting army building.
Mines are most usefull at lower tiers as the are easily blown afterwards.

Please check the 'continue capturing while broken' bug which I already did notice a year ago. I remember looking at the code without finding the reason fast so I forgot about it. But your keen sight might nail it fast.

Btw I invented a method for CC troops being shot while attacking buildings. It forced them to attack the shooters but it seems it is no more active/available now.

Edited by LarkinVB, 12 February 2007 - 08:04 PM.

[thudo]

Its up to Relic to fix the Firewarriors but I'm surprised we're arguing about the Tau Firewarriors - everytime I try to play our Hard Tau AI I always get owned but playing against all the others is more balanced. Reason.. those damn Firewarriors!! Argghhh! They just outrange everything and just stay back letting others take the heat. Again.. let Relic take care of em in the balance update. The community has spoken.

As for Mines... hmmm.. don't they cost so little and are there more for a nuisance to the enemy? That a bad thing? Further, so few are created until we get to higher tiers. Again.. wish Relic would make em more tough and powerful.

Arkhan - problem was that a spot to build an LP was available but none was built immediately. I've seen this a little more often now where a captured strat remains unbuilt on even though the AI easily has the coin.

[Lprsti99]

Pssst, thudo, I think they actually mean fire dragons, not fire warriors...

[LarkinVB]

Yep.

[ArkhanTheBlack]

Btw I invented a method for CC troops being shot while attacking buildings. It forced them to attack the shooters but it seems it is no more active/available now.

It's still there, but not as obvious as before. Search for self:CloseOnEnemy() and you'll find it.

Please check the 'continue capturing while broken' bug which I already did notice a year ago. I remember looking at the code without finding the reason fast so I forgot about it. But your keen sight might nail it fast.

Will do.

Its up to Relic to fix the Firewarriors but I'm surprised we're arguing about the Tau Firewarriors - everytime I try to play our Hard Tau AI I always get owned but playing against all the others is more balanced. Reason.. those damn Firewarriors!! Argghhh! They just outrange everything and just stay back letting others take the heat. Again.. let Relic take care of em in the balance update. The community has spoken.

Um.. I meant fire dragons not sure if Larkin mispelled them too, or really meant the fire warriors.

Arkhan - problem was that a spot to build an LP was available but none was built immediately. I've seen this a little more often now where a captured strat remains unbuilt on even though the AI easily has the coin.

Not sure, threat, threat on path or locked builders. But this was a lot worse in 2.1. I had to add some specials in 2.2 so that they save ressources for the posts in the early game.

[thudo]

Sorry.. FireDragons.. Then yep recommend limiting them to just 1. Since we cannot tell squad to focus-fire (which FDs would be perfect for against vehicles) then they should be limited.

As for the locked builders.. hrrmm.. strange thing was the unbuilt LP was right beside the AI's base with no threat. Also I've seen builders build half way then stop. Anomoly?

[LarkinVB]

I also observed locked builder for minutes in nowwhere. Seems there is a well hidden bug in certain special circumstances.