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#21 Ash

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Posted 20 February 2007 - 02:15 PM

Indeed, Solinx's "explanation" thread was similarly owl-free, even though it was not daytime.

I'm concerned about the bats in the belfry, too. They've lost their voice.

#22 Celeglin

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Posted 20 February 2007 - 02:49 PM

I'm sorry guys, but I'm not following your reasoning. You think the NL's are ruining Revora, and yet you've created a little study-group that's meant to peck and bicker at everything that's going on around here, thus becoming more of a disturbance to a lot of people than NL-fumbles. I completely agree with you that things are going rather awry in a lot of Revora, I'm just not sure that your methods to 'fixing' said problems are going to affect anything in a positive way.

T3A is doing perfectly well, and it's certainly not the NL who's presense is missing there.

That all being said, I've seen a number of things happen on the other side of the problem lately, so I'm going to claim neutrality in this whole affair. Sorry if my above comments were offending (oh heck, why bother with "if"? I'm sure a number of people won't be happy reading that), but I really needed to get that out there. My apologies again.

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#23 Solinx

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Posted 20 February 2007 - 03:04 PM

Right over the past few weeks i have noticed alot of changes around the forums. Both with sudden rank changes and now also forum changes. I'm not sure about the other people here on Revora but i'm getting pissed off at the fact that everything just keeps suddenly changing... and there is no form of explination given. Or if there is, its been prized out slowly and painfully :scars:

So now's a chance for the NL's and Admins to explain what the hell is going on here. Considering that this network seems to be reliant on its members we have the right to be told about any major changes being made here... and its also classed as manners to TELL someone they are going to be demoted... and im not talking about my Mod powers, i'm on about all the other things you've done to other people...

This Network was good, until recently (the past few months) its slowly taken a dive, what with all the feuding, pulling rank, demotions and sudden re-organisations. If this keeps up im sure that it will start seriously damaging Revoras reputation. :scars:



Also as a final query, why was that "Who Wiped The Black Market" thread been locked? There is no logical reason for that to of happened.


I wasn't NL yet when this happened, so I'll keep this to what I have come to understand of the situation and leave it for others to explain further where they want.


During the last few months, those staff members who were fired have been working on another network, called Meaaov. From what I understand, they have started this network because of the process and/or results of the ReVolution. As both Lee and Blodo say, they lost their interest in doing much at Revora. I have little doubt that Paradox was also quite disapointed with the ReVolution.
When Hybid resigned his position as NL at a time all other NLs were overloaded with things in their real life, it went wrong. A group of staff members didn't see much reason to keep working at Revora with Hybrid gone, and became even less active.
Then came the demotion of Paradox. Reason for this was that Paradox removed the Revora RPG division, which btw has recently been restored and brought under the leadership of Pastinator just a few days ago.
The firing of the other staff members was the result of this intercept of a newspost at a site hosted by Meaaov:

Meaaov Gaming are mainly ex-revora staff (Or soon to be Ex-staff once the network is up and running). Network is at the very start, but there are quite a few plans for the future such as how to try and make the network self suficiant.

There was suspicision that other staff members would make attempts similar to Paradox, taking Revora apart piece by piece. Since running one network with staff devoted to another isn't the perfect situation anyway, it was decided to clean out the staff. To prevent anyone from removing another division, noone was warned of their demotion. After the firing, it turned out that some staff members, MSpencer for example, had no intention to leave Revora, even after Meaaov would be up and running.

Mistakes have been made and paranoia admitted. Communication isn't only the name of this topic, it is also a word that is more frequently used in the staff forums, although there it mostly concerns communication between NL and staff, due to that being one of the causes for this incident.

On the other hand, I have seen a lot of negative reactions by those who admitted themselves to do little or nothing, while the ones they complain to work hard. That makes people frustrated and angry, hence the reactions from Banshee and Blaat.


So we are aware that communication is a problem, and we are doing our best to improve on that point, including toward non staff members.

What I know about Meaaov still isn't much to be honest.
Meaaov is a new, more commercially focused network, meaning not a direct competitor of Revora. I hope that in the future, when the dust has settled, we can become affiliates, despite the way we parted.

I hope this clarifies some things and explains the current changes Revora is going through.

Edit:
While I wrote this, Xeno, Paradox and Celeglin posted. I have not read those replies yet.

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#24 Gamemate

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Posted 20 February 2007 - 03:04 PM

Celaglin is right, blaming leadership and not trying to fix the issues in a normal manner does no good. It is easy to complain about things not working, but it is hard to get a doable solution to the issues, unfortunetly most people take the easy road.

Before anyone says that it is impossible to reason with the leadership, I myself have never had any issues with that, as long as you provide your view in a normal and reasonable way and make sure it is doable it is far from impossible. I do not take any side, there is issues and they need to be solved, this is not the method to do so though.

Issues like this should be solved out of public area, it is nothing you share with members, simply because it is very bad PR to show inefficieny of a network. Since it has been pointed out that people should look around on the net and see how things are run... Well from my experience matters like this is solved in none public areas, there is a reason for that.
If people were more constructive with their comments, then this place would be more enjoyable
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#25 Ash

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Posted 20 February 2007 - 03:17 PM

The bats have lost their voice - somebody has to give them directions, GM, or else they'll keep bumping into everything.

#26 ched

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Posted 20 February 2007 - 03:20 PM

might as well encrypt your posts to render them less understandable
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#27 Celeglin

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Posted 20 February 2007 - 03:22 PM

Speaking of crappy communication...

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#28 Gamemate

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Posted 20 February 2007 - 03:25 PM

Sorry Ash but english o_O I am not sure if I should take that as an offensive act or something else as I plain do not get what you say. And people wonder why they do not take some people serious... geesh.
If people were more constructive with their comments, then this place would be more enjoyable
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#29 Destroyer

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Posted 20 February 2007 - 03:25 PM

I've understood Paradox's posts pretty well.

So, from what I'm getting from this topic, the NLs are collectively paranoid and insecure, afraid that someone will overthrow the network, so they don't tell anyone about things until after they're done. Then, they blame us for it all. (I'm not talking about the newer additions to the administration team)

I like this :scars:

#30 Ash

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Posted 20 February 2007 - 03:28 PM

Well, to be fair, Ched, you lot don't read what I have to say when I say it in plain language. I find trying to get things through to y'all to be somewhat tiresome. I've livened up the game by putting everything in metaphor. At very least, I'll get exactly the same response as ever I did. At best, I'll get you all reading them a bit more closely due to the fact I'm not insulting you in an overt manner. In the case of the former, I just get more fun out of being dismissed as a heretic now than I did before. In the case of the latter, you might, for a change, end up thinking about what it is I'm trying to say.

EDIT: GM - I was not in any way insulting you in that post, I can assure you. If you get on MSN I'll explain it more. It's not you who needs to decipher it :scars:

Edited by Paradox, 20 February 2007 - 03:31 PM.


#31 Celeglin

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Posted 20 February 2007 - 03:38 PM

Forget I ever got involved (however half-handedly the attempt may have been). Clearly you're all above the lot of us and completely infalliable. Enjoy yourselves.

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#32 Ash

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Posted 20 February 2007 - 03:42 PM

Let's go watch the pots and other assorted cookware do some more cross-burnings! :scars:

Edited by Paradox, 20 February 2007 - 03:43 PM.


#33 ihateharriers

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Posted 20 February 2007 - 03:44 PM

Celaglin is right, blaming leadership and not trying to fix the issues in a normal manner does no good. It is easy to complain about things not working, but it is hard to get a doable solution to the issues, unfortunetly most people take the easy road.

Before anyone says that it is impossible to reason with the leadership, I myself have never had any issues with that, as long as you provide your view in a normal and reasonable way and make sure it is doable it is far from impossible. I do not take any side, there is issues and they need to be solved, this is not the method to do so though.

Issues like this should be solved out of public area, it is nothing you share with members, simply because it is very bad PR to show inefficieny of a network. Since it has been pointed out that people should look around on the net and see how things are run... Well from my experience matters like this is solved in none public areas, there is a reason for that.


i would have to disagree with you GM and Celaglin, simply for that fact that many of us don't have the powers to fix many of these issues and the only way to get them is fixed is to bring them to the attention of the leadership. we have degraded to the point of bitching because nothing is getting done. this is what angers me and other people. i also think that this does deserve to be debated and solved in the public eye because this really is about the members and the leadership, and i think that half the problems that plague this place now result from the leadership constantly wanting to solve all of the member related problems and issues outside of the members eyes. what good does this do if you can't get feedback on an idea so that it may be changed and improved from those who originally wanted the change and will be the ones having to deal with the change without having any powers to directly change it?

i also think that these ideas of people destroying revora from the inside out are given way to much merit. the paranoia surrounding those ideas is the problem, not the ideas themselves. i don't know mcuh about the whole revora RPG deal, but i really don't see paradox trying to destroy this network from the inside out - he's been here far too long and would appear to me to be one of it's best members. what i can see, however, is paradox taking his RPG Guild to a place that doesn't appear to be going straight to hell in a handbasket woven by those trying to prevent all this from happening.

maybe the revolution that is/was apparently taking place needs to not be a revolution in looks or board function or organization but a revolution in leadership - out with old and in with the new. maybe then some problems can be solved with new ideas and new methods. maybe then this network can move past it's current stage and this so-called golden era can be ushered in. i for one would be more than happy to help out with moderaing and admin duties around here. i remember the end of the old revora, and for how impressive the end wasi can't even imagine what it was like at it's height. if i could help bring that back, then i would be more than happy to do so. but bottom line, something needs to get done, and mcuh needs to change for the better, and if ppl don't start listening to what others have to say, then that's just simply not gonna happen.

and in response to what celeglin just posted, we don't think that we are infallable, nor do we think that we are superior - we think that your best judgements aren't working, and that needs to change.
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#34 Celeglin

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Posted 20 February 2007 - 03:55 PM

we think that your best judgements aren't working, and that needs to change.

Leave me the heck out of this! I have NOTHING to do with the running of Revora and am TRULY sorry for ever poking my head in here.

EDIT: And for the love of pete, would you at least spell my screen name right when complain about me not listening?

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#35 Shine On

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Posted 20 February 2007 - 04:03 PM

THANK YOU Solinx. That has to be one of the best responces i've heard from ANY of the Network leaders. Although it still doesn't solve the issues, i have to say thanks for actually communicating with us and trying to explain some of the reasons behind the demotions etc.

Edited by Xeno, 20 February 2007 - 04:03 PM.

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#36 Athena

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Posted 20 February 2007 - 04:14 PM

I bet any NL here couldn't name some of the players without having to look up a member list.

callum212 and brad something. There were actually a few members thinking of leaving the clan because they had issues with each other.

#37 chemical ali

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Posted 20 February 2007 - 04:58 PM

Hmmm, I've observed this little topic recently to my great shock. Solinx, has probably explained this the best I do disagree about the firing of several staff members (who I know nothing about). My question is why did you fire them, seems to be the case of the Night of the Long Knives here you can't just randomly fire people, try talking to them first as it will will starting going wrong if random accusations start to fly.

I've not heard of Meaaov gaming, must be something of Tom's as I remember he had plans to try and set up something new seeing some parts of Revora as failing which is understandable in any sort of large organisation. I see one of the failures is rapid expansion, you have some good leaders like Blaat, Hostile, Banshee, Mastermind. Assets to the network and the wider communities.

I would like to come back one day here, perhaps later on at university when there is more time to try and build something up again. I think its a good idea for this to be in the public eye, it shows some sort of democracy in action asking for peoples opinions. My only criticism is that Revora became too authoritarian, it lost its element of fun that lingered even after the death of CNCG.

Anyway, for now I drift off into the dark night...
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#38 Ash

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Posted 20 February 2007 - 05:20 PM

Wow. Even Ali has owlish tendencies. Now there's a turn-up for the old books.

#39 Solinx

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Posted 20 February 2007 - 05:21 PM

The bats have lost their voice - somebody has to give them directions, GM, or else they'll keep bumping into everything.

We do not act bindfolded Paradox. You ignored my post, in which I acknowledged that communication was a problem and still is a problem. We are not done solving it yet. Changing habits isn't done over night, it takes time. Topics like this don't speed things up to be honest, nor does the fact that both Blaat and myself don't really feel well, and Hostile is at New Zealand, enjoying his vacation.

Edit:
On second thought, topics like this do speed things up. While they require time we could have spend on other things, I hope this topic will improve our relation with the members, making it easier to solve the problems.

maybe the revolution that is/was apparently taking place needs to not be a revolution in looks or board function or organization but a revolution in leadership - out with old and in with the new. maybe then some problems can be solved with new ideas and new methods. maybe then this network can move past it's current stage and this so-called golden era can be ushered in.

Perhaps, but I very much doubt that. Bringing in new leadership is nice, it brings in fresh ideas, but replacing the team with a new one would be a loss of experience that will hurt Revora badly. Also, it's no so much new leadership that is needed. I think we need more structure in the organization of revora staff. Both in their roles and in communication.

i for one would be more than happy to help out with moderaing and admin duties around here. i remember the end of the old revora, and for how impressive the end wasi can't even imagine what it was like at it's height. if i could help bring that back, then i would be more than happy to do so. but bottom line, something needs to get done, and mcuh needs to change for the better, and if ppl don't start listening to what others have to say, then that's just simply not gonna happen.

Very well. Let me first ask a few questions.

- What division would you prefer to be admin for? Or would you want to be admin for the general forums? (For those who don't know: That position doesn't exists, but to prove that we're open for ideas, perhaps it may come to existance if a good reason is supplied)

- What would you do when you are admin at that location?

... ok this is a short interview. Dinner is served, and that won't wait for me to finish.

Edit: Back to add a few things.

- Why would you want to be admin at the location you chose?

- Why do you need admin powers for your plans? (Aside not being heard by current staff) And what powers would that be?

- What is your vision of Revora? How can Revora be improved?

This interview doesn't guarantee you, or any other who answers those questions, a staff position.
One simple reason for that is that I simply can't make you staff without communication with other people.

Note, this is not some joke, it's an honest and serious interview and we are listening.

THANK YOU Solinx. That has to be one of the best responces i've heard from ANY of the Network leaders. Although it still doesn't solve the issues, i have to say thanks for actually communicating with us and trying to explain some of the reasons behind the demotions etc.

You're welcome :scars:

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#40 Ash

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Posted 20 February 2007 - 06:01 PM

I didn't ignore your post, because I wasn't addressing your post. I was directly addressing Gamemate. And like the bats who've lost their voice, I think Revora's leadership has lost it's way and needs to be given directions from those who use Revora. That was the entire essence of that metaphor - the idea that the admins and higher are the solution to all Revora's problems, completely disregarding the feelings and sentiments of the memberbase, and then blaming said memberbase when they begin to complain and wonder why the hell things have suddenly gone against them.

A proper explanation was all that was needed with regards the removal of the Black Market. Followed by suitable rebuttals to the suggestions put forward by the likes of Destroyer. If that's too much to ask, then...well, the belfry should be torn down.

Edited by Paradox, 20 February 2007 - 06:04 PM.





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