45 replies to this topic

[Khymerion]

The question I must ask now is how do you plan on handling the more advanced fighters of the Empire? From things I remember for ancient days (old TIE Fighter player here)... the TIE Advanced/Avenger, TIE Defender, and Missile boats all were either limited production (Advanced) or produced in such low number as to be near unique (Defender/Missile Boat). Their capabilities and accompaning price tags were such as to preclude mass production, limiting them to very select and elite deployment.

The question I must also present is, will the capabilities of the Defender and Missile boat be properly represented? Will the Defender also carry its Ion Cannons? Will the Missile Boat carry the SLAM drive for that much needed boost of speed when trying to close and catch a Defender or get within range to launch its Torpedo salvo against a target? Will there be a suitably outrageous price tag for a very limited number of them? Not a full squadron of 6 or 12... but in wingman numbers (2) to make up for the insane capabilities combined with a price tag rivaling a Nebulon B frigate for the pair (to represent just the massive material investment into what is, in essence, a prototype project... since neither of the two were ever mass produced... infact, you do a good job at destroying the Defender orbital factories during the game)...

Sorry to be so questioning on this subject but when I saw the Defender being used in nearly swarm numbers and then watching them actually die in droves while playing FoC... and then watching modders actually having Defenders be carried on ships in squadron numbers... it actually debased and removed any sense of the great worth and capability and presteige of the fighter (and ruining many memories of these great fighters) from the old flight sim days. It was an indignity to a concept. And with the inclusion of the very much evil sibling of the Defender with the missile boat, I just am... well... very careful in wanting to see the original concepts of these super fighters be properly shown... even if I have to pay the price of a star destroyer to get 6.

[Phoenix Rising]

No, believe me, I welcome this kind of discussion (specifically why I made this sub-forum ). As far as I'm concerned, it can only make the mod better. Let me try to address your questions (as a former TIE jockey myself):

The question I must also present is, will the capabilities of the Defender and Missile boat be properly represented? Will the Defender also carry its Ion Cannons?

The stats on the site are all as-implemented, so yes. With things like missiles, there's no way for EaW to track those exactly, so I'm using the count to determine rate of fire. And the Nova Wing fires fast.

Will the Missile Boat carry the SLAM drive for that much needed boost of speed when trying to close and catch a Defender or get within range to launch its Torpedo salvo against a target?

One of the variants will for sure, but I haven't decided which yet. That's more of a matter of fine-tuning balance, which will be done just about last (prior to a release, after everything is implemented). I'm using a bit of loose interpretation of canon in favor of balance sometimes, so I might start the Nova Wing line with a prototype version (like the B-wing) that is somewhat stripped down. I just don't know yet. As far as being necessary, that's debatable with sublight speeds starting at 125 MGLT, but again, that could be addressed with a prototype or something else. Just to restate, each line of ships will have 10 variants, such as T-65A, T-65B, T-65C, etc., when all is said and done, but only the first one is listed on the site to save space.

Will there be a suitably outrageous price tag for a very limited number of them? Not a full squadron of 6 or 12... but in wingman numbers (2) to make up for the insane capabilities combined with a price tag rivaling a Nebulon B frigate for the pair (to represent just the massive material investment into what is, in essence, a prototype project... since neither of the two were ever mass produced... infact, you do a good job at destroying the Defender orbital factories during the game)...

They will be outrageously priced in squadrons of 12. You also have to remember that the X-wing series is seriously biased towards starfighters; it would be virtually impossible to destroy an Imperial-class Star Destroyer with a single Y-wing, for example, or do some of the other things that you can in the games. Of course, they compensate for this canonically by making the player characters highly Force-sensitive individuals, but think of all the other TIE Defenders that you spaced who were just regular pilots. There were a lot of them.

As far as being prototypes, I see nothing other than military philosophy that would preclude the Empire from mass-producing such expensive starfighters in smaller numbers than their standard death-traps, so I'll leave that choice up to the player. In an alternate timeline, the Rebels could've amassed Z-95s while the Empire focused on TIE Avengers or something of the sort (as far as the personnel discrepancy, Dac does have a population of 27 billion, so it's not that unfeasible). Of course, the Galactic Civil War probably would've turned out much differently, but, to me, the point of strategy games is to explore "what if" scenarios rather than acting out history exactly as it happened.

So basically, unlike TIE Fighter, no one fighter is the end-all unit to win the game (it was really more the pilots than the ships anyways). If you send Nova Wings against DP20 Gunships, you're going to take heavy casualties from the quads and concussion missiles, which just weren't represented in the X-wing series. But they cut through Z-95s and A-wings like lightsabers. It all depends what you deploy them against.

[Khymerion]

Thank you, that is exactly the answere I was looking for... I can now rest a bit easier. I actually am wanting to see now the tech progression of the strike fighters then!

[slornie]

in your units section:
you have the B Wing listed as not having a hyperdrive - i was under the impression that it did have one (it does in ROTJ)
i was surprised to see that the E Wing is faster than the A Wing (i know the latter is older, but i would still have expected it to be faster than a multi role fighter like the E Wing)

[Phoenix Rising]

you have the B Wing listed as not having a hyperdrive - i was under the impression that it did have one (it does in ROTJ)

Correct. I wanted to scale it back a bit to be in line with the Imperial bombers, so the first variant is the B-wing Prototype (think the ones from the Shantipole mission if you played X-wing), which lacks hyperdrive and the big Gyrhil laser cannon (the nasty Class 9 one from SWG: Jump to Lightspeed). If you choose to upgrade, the next variant is the standard B-wing, which adds both.

i was surprised to see that the E Wing is faster than the A Wing (i know the latter is older, but i would still have expected it to be faster than a multi role fighter like the E Wing)

You get the R-22/A-wing sooner in the Fighter tree, so that's comparing baseline variants. I believe the E-wing speed is canonical... yeah. Exact R-22 speed isn't, but it should be relatively. From Wookieepedia's R-22 article:

"What those modifications entailed and how they differed from the Spearhead is unknown, though it is known that Dodonna's decision to create the RZ-1 was largely driven by the Alliance's lack of a starfighter that could match the TIE/ln starfighter's raw speed. Additionally, the RZ-1 was also noted for its improved maneuverability, therefore the difference lies most likely in the engine-design."

I basically took that and said:

TIE/In = 111 MGLT (well-established canon)
A-wing = 120 MGLT (well-established canon)
R-22 (? MGLT) < TIE/In (111 MGLT) < A-wing (120 MGLT) (based on Dodonna's comment)
R-22 ~= 100 MGLT (relative canon)

The A-wing is the next upgrade though, so you get a speed boost right away. Basically with the variants, I'm taking a ship's best features and combat role into account and amplifying them based on if the manufacturer had hypothetically continued the line - and maybe they had, but it just hasn't been documented yet or whatever. Anyways, getting back to your question, a fully-upgraded A-wing screams past fully-upgraded E-wings, as a true interceptor should. I think it's the fastest ship the Alliance has.

Just for redundancy, here's a look at the asynchronous tech tree that I originally posted at Petroglyph's forums. The vertical progression is the Alliance's Fighter tree (new models), while the detailed horizontal progression is the T-65 X-wing tree (new variants).

Z-95Mk1 Headhunter > ...
\/
T-65A X-wing > T-65B/T-65AC1 X-wing > T-65C/T-65AC2 X-wing > T-65F/T-65AC3 X-wing > T-65I/T-65AC4 X-wing > T-65J/XJ X-wing > T-65J3/XJ3 X-wing > T-65J5/XJ5 X-wing > T-65J6/XJ6 X-wing > T-65J7/XJ7 X-wing
\/
R-22 Spearhead > ...
\/
...

[Khymerion]

Interesting... so with enough time (and dedication to a certain type of fighter), you can actually get the really late model X-Wings from the books... yay! My X-Wings won't be still tooling around in the ancient days when late generation fighters start showing up!

[Phoenix Rising]

Right. Part of the strategy is deciding whether to research new ships or to improve your old ones. Designing new ones takes longer, but they ultimately end up outclassing the old ones as you upgrade them (for example, a T-65J7 X-wing has nothing on an E-wing Series X). Upgrading is faster, so there's an opportunity to catch your enemies with inferior technology as they're waiting for new ships to come in. And you can always raid the enemy's research facility and really cause problems .

Edited by Phoenix Rising, 24 February 2007 - 08:33 PM.

[slornie]

thanks for clearing that up for me... the way you are doing it seems interesting - i dont think there are any other mods doing it this way are there ?

[Phoenix Rising]

As far as I know, it's completely unique to any game.

[Loth Don]

As far as I know, it's completely unique to any game.

It really seems so. It will be a nice change from the incredibly simple tech tree normally available.

One mod I tried made the TIE Defender a staple garrison squadron on a rather common, inexpensive ship. It had no limit to the number of spawns, so you had for like 1000 credits, infinite TIE Defenders. What a bunch of crap. That mod also made the old republic dreadnaughts the toughest capital ships available.

Phoenix's approach looks fresh and thankfully balanced.

[slornie]

so how does the upgrading/researching work in game? - this 'asynchronous' tech tree - im assuming that it is different to regular FoC

[Phoenix Rising]

Yeah, I'm not using tech levels at all. Researching is basically the same as purchasing upgrades in vanilla EaW, except it's done from the galactic view.

[slornie]

does that mean that the rebels can research tech as well - and is this linked in any way to stealing tech (or is this ignored as well) ?

[Phoenix Rising]

Yeah, it's all done by research for any faction; there is no stealing. I've enabled the Rebel research facility in Galactic Conquest, so that's where everything is researched. There may be other building prerequisites too, depending on what technology you're going for (level one space station for fighters, for example).

[slornie]

do you not need to have the steal thing for the rebels to tech up in order to get more heroes and larger space stations ? - and do you not need to do the normal tech research for the same as the empire ?

[Phoenix Rising]

No, which tech level buildings and units show up is only a matter of changing one or two tags per building/unit. Heroes depend on the campaign, but that's not really an issue either.

[sideshow_bob]

nice to see a novel mod that does not throw in a bunch of unrealistic ships.

and i would like to see that prototypes come in pairs, because they are prototypes, and therefore rarer

Edited by sideshow_bob, 23 October 2007 - 07:45 PM.

[Phoenix Rising]

That seems to cross the line of realism into uselessness.

[sideshow_bob]

well the prototypes are never really mass-produced, perhaps the upgrade fisrt "main" version woulds be a little cheaper,

the prototypes could have some "under development" techjnology (a later-version's ability) which the prototype allows you to "try".
the next one is cheaper, but without the ability, and a full squadron size

well the prototypes are never really mass-produced, perhaps the upgrade fisrt "main" version woulds be a little cheaper,

the prototypes could have some "under development" techjnology (a later-version's ability) which the prototype allows you to "try".
the next one is cheaper, but without the ability, and a full squadron size

[Phoenix Rising]

I think it's just unnecessary tediousness. Not all ships have prototype versions and I only included them for the sake of continuity (in the case of the TIE Advanced line) or balance (in the case of the B-wing/Nova Wing).