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Master Thudo on the AI for CNC3.


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#1 Hostile

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Posted 04 March 2007 - 04:01 PM

The forthcoming C&C3 does have excellent Skirmish AI, in fact it adapts to the other player now dynamically! There are a few quirks but those can be modded in I believe. So yes.. there are some games now coming out that do look at Skirmish AI more acutely - this is quite refreshing.

This is THEE Revora AI master. So if he gives a thumbs up, than I'm happy.

http://forums.revora...topic=46446&hl= -original source

Wouldn't it be a dream come true is Thudo decided to play with cnc3 AI when it comes out. :lol:

#2 Phil

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Posted 04 March 2007 - 04:06 PM

Indeed, he'd be more than welcome to mess around with the AI, as this is usually considered the most difficult part of coding...

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#3 thudo

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Posted 05 March 2007 - 06:42 PM

Present and accounted for. I'll have plenty to say on the C&C3 AI once the final is out. Right now, its pure speculation. Granted, AI scripts for any game between demo and final likely won't change much. AI always gets the shaft but someday, I tell ya, "Skynet will NOT be denied"! :xcahik_:

Also.. since EA's site sux righteous donkey balls for reliability of posting, I need another outlet.

I'm unsure how much modding I would involve myself in C&C3 as it depends how the AI works but I can tell you this:

The C&C3 Skirmish AI must:

o always builds superweapons no matter what
o always builds bombers to totally screw up enemy tank formations
o always builds Obelisks and ESPECIALLY Stealth Generators (for Nod)
o try to use siege tactics by raining long range fire on enemy positions

C&C3 Demo AI is *NOT* consistent as I've seen too many games from HARD and Brutal where if you take and hold the side Tiberium fields it will not preform as it should. It has to be smarter than that and it will be made so!
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#4 ched

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Posted 05 March 2007 - 07:19 PM

*claps*

hear hear !
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#5 thudo

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Posted 05 March 2007 - 07:29 PM

I'll have to find out whose used WorldBuilder back in the early Generals/ZH days.

I'll need to find out precisely how to force C&C3 to have the Human Player (startpoint 0) to be an AI-controlled player as in DoW/DC. This is massively important and can cut down AI debugging and enhancement times in half. I do hope we can find a script or code to force the game to have all startpoints controlled by the AI. That would be huge!!

I look forward to working with any of you to perhaps drastically-enhance the C&C3 experience and take EA's existing AI scripting system to new heights. Hopefully, we won't need to do much.
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#6 Bart

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Posted 06 March 2007 - 07:49 PM

You can tell a player in WB exactly which AI to use. You'd have to edit it every time you want to test another faction though
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#7 thudo

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Posted 06 March 2007 - 08:06 PM

You can tell a player in WB exactly which AI to use. You'd have to edit it every time you want to test another faction though

Hows that? I'll need to see that working as I could never get Skirmish AI to be Player0 which is normally the Human Player always. In Dawn of War, we run a script calling a hardcoded command that auto-populates Player0 as an AI. Its saved hours and weeks of time.
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#8 Phil

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Posted 06 March 2007 - 08:42 PM

So basicly you're making yourself an observer and see how the AI fares against other AIs?

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#9 thudo

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Posted 06 March 2007 - 08:47 PM

So basicly you're making yourself an observer and see how the AI fares against other AIs?

Ah.. thats the same as in Dawn of War as I mentioned. Its like watching a replay of the game but its actually a real-time game. I'll be interested in seeing if this is possible -- I gather its not possible in the C&C3 demo as I'd pay good money to see a Brutal GDI AI vs Brutal Nod AI at each other's throats. ;)
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#10 Hostile

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Posted 06 March 2007 - 11:40 PM

Mod makers will immediately recognize that our new AI exists in a highly tunable structure, with easy access to most systems via XML. This is a significant diversion from some of our past AI efforts, which involved heavy world-builder scripting and less versatility for modding.


Together, the AI team created a wide range of tactics for the AI to employ, depending on the circumstances. There are special operations for building base defenses, aircraft, using powers, beefing up the economy, running attacks, and anything else that might need to be done. Each unit type has a priority associated with it, so that the AI will prefer to build some units over others. These priorities also shift depending on what the opponent possesses, so that the correct counterunits can be produced quickly. These operations can all be tuned individually, or even disabled, so that single-player missions and modders can have total flexibility.


We also threw in a little secret that might come in handy when you have an AI ally. If you drop a beacon on the battlefield, all AI allies will automatically assemble a team and send them to attack the area near the beacon. This will allow you to call for help from your robo-buddies when you really need it. You can drop additional beacons to move them along if you need help later.


The AI will increase or decrease difficulty slightly to match the player's ability during a battle, so the medium setting in particular can offer a good match for any player between easy and hard skill levels. Hard difficulty is the most difficult AI we could possibly create without cheating.


Some key points from the cnc3.net news on an article about cnc3 AI.

Original source here.
http://www.gamespot....;om_clk=topslot

#11 thudo

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Posted 07 March 2007 - 01:00 AM

Nice! Better than I thought considering most PC RTSes these days don't exactly have Skirmish AI high on the priority list. This is utterly startling coming from EA (knowing their past). Lets HOPE they can post-support C&C3 like they DIDN'T do with Generals/ZH. :p

Mind you.. I've been watching alot of the GDI vs Nod Brutal-Balanced AI and the Nod vs GDI Brutal-Balanced AI and see areas the AI could improve it. Such areas are already outlined in my small list below.

One person mentioned that if you engineer rush and take over the AI's MCV he won't bother to make another one and deploy it. I'm unsure if this is true but if you engineer/transport rush the Nod AI within 4mins and sell off his MCV and he didn't build a Vehicle Yard then I can understand. That would suck for anyone.

I remember in older C&Cs and RAs the AI would build another MCV and deploy it right beside the Vehicle Yard it came from. Don't remotely see what the C&C3 AI would not do this regardless. Yes it costs $5000 but it seems C&C3's Tiberium fields rake in alot of cash. ;)

Btw.. I am deeply humbled by the fact you chaps pinned this. Wow.. Great bunch of lads :lol:
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#12 snig

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Posted 07 March 2007 - 01:32 AM

Nice! Better than I thought considering most PC RTSes these days don't exactly have Skirmish AI high on the priority list. This is utterly startling coming from EA (knowing their past).


Relic brought some excellent competition to the field; the cnc3 units attack in line and seem to target the same unit as opposed to c&c gen where they lined up in traffic jams waiting to get killed by base defenses ;)

Good to see you're on it Thudo; looking forward to seeing what you can do for us

#13 Hostile

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Posted 07 March 2007 - 01:38 AM

Well once I smelled an interest on your forum and saw you actually are interested in the game, than I moved quick to get you here where you are greatly needed.

This is a very important part of the game of which few of us have much experience. We have great modelers, including infantry modelers, great coders, but we need a strong head to keep us up to breast on AI for cnc3.

With you helping us, this means we have a complete team of interested people to contribute to this endeavor. You have no IDEA how valuable you are to this project.

The work you've done in your forums is top notch.

#14 Bart

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Posted 07 March 2007 - 11:52 AM

Hows that? I'll need to see that working as I could never get Skirmish AI to be Player0 which is normally the Human Player always. In Dawn of War, we run a script calling a hardcoded command that auto-populates Player0 as an AI. Its saved hours and weeks of time.

in the player options screen, set an AI for one of the players (e.g. player 1). then play the game, and be sure to be that player. you will still have control, but if you just sit back and relax the AI will take over for you
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#15 thudo

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Posted 07 March 2007 - 03:03 PM

in the player options screen, set an AI for one of the players (e.g. player 1). then play the game, and be sure to be that player. you will still have control, but if you just sit back and relax the AI will take over for you

Err.. that simple? I'll have to investigate that as it sounds way to easy. Completely hope that is retained in the retail!

Thanks everyone for your support!
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#16 Bart

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Posted 07 March 2007 - 03:48 PM

by the way, it's worth noting that what i described is for BFME, but i see no reason why it has changed in CNC3
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#17 Phil

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Posted 07 March 2007 - 05:33 PM

This is a very important part of the game of which few of us have much experience. We have great modelers, including infantry modelers, great coders, but we need a strong head to keep us up to breast on AI for cnc3.

With you helping us, this means we have a complete team of interested people to contribute to this endeavor. You have no IDEA how valuable you are to this project.

QFT

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#18 need my speed

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Posted 07 March 2007 - 06:06 PM

Does that mean Quoted For Truth?
Please, if you see a mistake in my posts - spelling, grammar, punctuation, or whatever else - point it out. How can one learn from mistakes, if one is not corrected?
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#19 Alias

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Posted 08 March 2007 - 05:29 AM

Yes. QFT = Quoted for truth.

#20 thudo

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Posted 09 March 2007 - 03:46 AM

I getting indications that the C&C3 devs are open to Skirmish AI improvements. There have been some excellent GDI vs Nod AI Brutal-Balanced movies that have given us good insight to how to better improve the AI even before launch and the devs seem receptive to this.

I'm dearly hoping AI coding for C&C3 may actually come from the devs more readily than us and sofar indications would suggest this. Now I really want this game!!!!!!!
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