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#1 Bart

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Posted 01 March 2007 - 09:06 PM

Nemoricus, I'm affraid one needs a bit of experience to make a revora-worthy site. However, making a site is not so hard (depends on how complex you want it to be, of course ;)) and I'd encourage you to practice with it.

Macromedia Dreamweaver will get you up and running real fast ;)
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#2 Jeeves

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Posted 01 March 2007 - 09:42 PM

But you should use Notepad or Notepad++ if you want something worth having ;)

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#3 Bart

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Posted 01 March 2007 - 11:33 PM

and why's that? ;)
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#4 Jeeves

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Posted 02 March 2007 - 12:26 AM

Generated code is generally appalling, and a WYSIWYG editor limits you.
HTML isn't actually hard, and actually learning it is far more useful than creating it as it allows you to extend your ability, fix any bugs, etc.
Also its very difficult to do CSS layouts in generators, so you're stuck with tabular ones, which are bad to begin with (random anti-table link).
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#5 Bart

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Posted 02 March 2007 - 08:36 AM

dreamweaver generates clean, standardized html, and if you want you can edit it by hand, in a good editor with code completion, error checking, etc..
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#6 Blodo

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Posted 02 March 2007 - 09:41 AM

It's never good practice to use a WYSIWYG editor to code websites. Unless you want a blog or something, and don't care one bit for web standards or will your page work in all browsers - or just IE. While Dreamweaver is actually mediocre good (which is about as good as it gets, it's competition is 20 times worse) at this, coding sites without reviewing the code is a one way trip to browser hell. It also makes debugging all that much harder.

Also I'd recommend Microsoft Frontpage as the biggest garbage generator the earth had ever seen. The amount of clean html that it can foil within like 5 seconds (or an accidental click for that matter) is amazing, and surely deserves some sort of an award.

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#7 Bart

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Posted 02 March 2007 - 09:26 PM

It's never good practice to use a WYSIWYG editor to code websites. Unless you want a blog or something, and don't care one bit for web standards or will your page work in all browsers - or just IE.

Dreamweaver isn't just an editor (though it does that very well, and like i said, has a good code editor), but also a manager. You can use templates and that stuff, upload directly, and more...

Also I'd recommend Microsoft Frontpage as the biggest garbage generator the earth had ever seen. The amount of clean html that it can foil within like 5 seconds (or an accidental click for that matter) is amazing, and surely deserves some sort of an award.

apparently you have never saved an html file from MS Word :)

by the way, I'm not denying that Notepad++ is an essential part of any pc
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#8 Solinx

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Posted 03 March 2007 - 06:12 PM

Also I'd recommend Microsoft Frontpage as the biggest garbage generator the earth had ever seen. The amount of clean html that it can foil within like 5 seconds (or an accidental click for that matter) is amazing, and surely deserves some sort of an award.

:p Another awarded Microsoft product. :p

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#9 Jeeves

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Posted 04 March 2007 - 02:16 AM

Its not just weather the code is valid or not (although I'll bet it wouldn't be), or if its soo much more convenient than having to open both notepad AND filezilla, but in this case I'd think it would be fairly important for the webmaster to actually know what they're doing.
There is no point setting up a site that will crumble in any other browser to the designers, nor one that will decay without the master knowing how to update nor upgrade. And frankly, if someone cannot find a spare weekend to learn (it really isn't that hard, and my offer to help is always there - hit my msn), then I doubt they'd be worthy of running the site/division anyway, and the whole thing becomes entirely trivial.
Feel free to continue the great notepad vs ***** debate btw, just thought I should put this example into better context :p
Btw, notepad > ***** :p

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#10 Mastermind

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Posted 04 March 2007 - 02:42 AM

dreamweaver generates clean, standardized html, and if you want you can edit it by hand, in a good editor with code completion, error checking, etc..

The last Dreamweaver generated site I edited was a massive mess of godawful HTML that didn't conform to any standards, and used tables for layout and spacer.gif. There were excess tags with no content all over the place, a billion useless font tags, and no use of CSS. I don't know what particular version it was generated with, but I would just about take Word HTML over Dreamweaver.

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#11 Bart

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Posted 04 March 2007 - 11:01 AM

The last Dreamweaver generated site I edited was a massive mess of godawful HTML that didn't conform to any standards, and used tables for layout and spacer.gif. There were excess tags with no content all over the place, a billion useless font tags, and no use of CSS. I don't know what particular version it was generated with, but I would just about take Word HTML over Dreamweaver.

let me just assure you that it was a version below MX :p the Dreamweavers I use don't do this
Anyway, if you're going to use PHP, then Zend is better. You're not likely to do any complex html then anyway

You can see the result of my rework here.

:p nice opportunity to advertise
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#12 Blodo

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Posted 04 March 2007 - 05:34 PM

Mastermind: While I'm not the one to defend WYSIWYG editors, one does have to be capable to use one for it to output html not crap it out. It might still suck coding wise, but it won't be abysmal like you defined it :lol:

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#13 Banshee

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Posted 05 March 2007 - 05:13 PM

WYSIWYG editors might be interesting to design your site. But once you start to code it, use NotePad++ or another text editor, because you can generate a lot better code than the garbage that these programs generate.


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#14 Bart

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Posted 05 March 2007 - 09:30 PM

sure thing :xcahik_:

anyway, Dreamweaver does not make your code garbage. but you're right, for coding (e.g. PHP) there are other applications
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#15 Jeeves

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Posted 05 March 2007 - 10:23 PM

Sidenote: Np++ keeps saving my php in one-liners, how does one make it stop?
Seems there may be no improving upon Notepad after all :xcahik_:

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#16 Phil

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Posted 05 March 2007 - 10:32 PM

You mean it doesn't automatically jump to a new line when you write more than the window's max width or what?

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#17 Jeeves

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Posted 05 March 2007 - 11:00 PM

I mean when I save, instead of the 4000 lines of beuatiful xhmtl, css and php, I have one looong lot of mess. It's very, very irksome, as my other favorite tool is by far and wide Opera - the only browser I know of that allows you to edit the source and reload from cache - bloody marvellous idea imo - but my source is unreadable...
And no, its not because of wordwrap :xcahik_:

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#18 Phil

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Posted 05 March 2007 - 11:03 PM

Ah, okay. Weird thing then. No idea what's wrong though :xcahik_:

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#19 Hostile

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Posted 06 March 2007 - 12:59 AM

I used dreamweaver for everthing I do. I generally code the site by hand and use some of the features to save time. Like inserting non standard characters, or setting and linking css.

I never EVER use the wysiwyg. It might be useful for a beginner to add something with wysiwyg, than go back and look at the code to see how it functions.

But using wysiwys as THEE way to design a site is foolish. By the time I'm done coding a page, it shows up as gibberish in the visual editor anyway.

#20 Bart

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Posted 06 March 2007 - 07:56 AM

@Jeeves: it might have something to with the encoding. maybe it's not set to Windows or whatever (I'm not an expert ;))
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