42 replies to this topic

[Funch]

You have guns. I don't really give a damn. What I do give a damn about is how they are used. Just because you don't infringe upon the rights of others doesn't mean you can go about doing as you please. That's not right. Sad to say in this country, they don't know how to prosecute individuals.

If I am not affecting others, shouldn't I be able to do what I want? Don't get me into this, I am a libertarian. That party is based around political freedoms and civil rights.

If you find school shootings funny, you need professional help. FAST!

Of course the shootings weren't funny, but there were parts that made me laugh. Like "Corporate Cops", or the false yet hilarious animated short that ties the NRA and KKK together. Like all of Moore's films, it was funny. But like the rest of his films, it was also misguiding.

Yes, I did know that. But those are not the issue, it's the gun laws. You''re straying off the point here.

Actually, I was on point. I was making people realize that the 1994 AWB has done jackshit, and yet that was one of the bigger pieces of legislation passed in the name of gun control.

DICK CHEESE!!!!!!!!

In my experience, most forum dwellers have the attention span of sleep deprived apes, therefore I need to get their attention. You do not seem to have that problem.

No shit. There's a lot of turmoil in those countries.

Exactly. It also shows that bullshit laws wont stop criminals anyways.

That doesn't really illustrate a point. It just makes you seem crazy.

Well, my job here is done!! Seriously, I could substituted "I" with "someone" to get my point across. What's that point you ask? The fact that the firearm manufacturers are blamed more often than any other producer when it comes to some jackass that uses the product in a bad way.

You cannot own fully automatic weapons. You cannot own modified weapons. What a waste of $7000. And I hope you had fun annihilating a poor, defenseless fruit.

http://www.iawca.org/
Yes, you can legally own full autos where I live. You can also own short barrelled rifles and shotguns, registered of course. Waste of money? In your opinion. Some people like cars, some like tools, he happens to like automatic rifles. And yes, I did have a great time 'sploding fruit.

Right, petty criminals do not. Big criminals like gang members DO have automatic weapons. They're armed to the teeth and they make up a large portion of criminals around the country. They're not a majority but they're something like 20% of all criminals in the country. If that figure's old, sue me.

Another case where it looks like gun control is doing its job as advertised...oh wait.

[MSpencer]

Look at most criminals, most only have 9mms at best.

[Deathscythe1911]

Keep in mind that most organised crime syndicates have access to small, easily concealed, but powerful weapons such as Uzi or Tec9s

[Funch]

Keep in mind that most organised crime syndicates have access to small, easily concealed, but powerful weapons such as Uzi or Tec9s

Still obtained illegally. And FYI, the 9mm Parabellum/Luger isn't considered powerful. Many people who are shot live. Not good wounding potential. Of course, you hit the vitals, the person will go down. Remember, though, you have to be right in the vitals, otherwise the round won't cause larger wounds, and have less of a chance of dropping them. To kill any living thing, you need to take out the vitals, or cause enough pain and blood loss to cause the central nervous system to shut down.

[Deathscythe1911]

You mustve killed a guy to know all of that. :roll:

[MSpencer]

All you gotta do is shoot someone in the chest, it doesn't matter if they're dead, they ain't gettin up.

[Funch]

For the most part, true. Many vitals in that area. But under freak circumstances, people get shot multiple times, and keep going. Even under rifle and machinegun fire. In WWI, there were numerous cases of people charging enemy positions, getting shot over 15 times, and keep going. Once their adrenaline wore off, they dropped dead.

Either way, if it comes to putting someone down, I would choose many other rounds than the 9mm Parabellum.

[MSpencer]

Uhm... what the fuck? One bullet, they go down, this is real life. I'd only shoot someone once, I don't need to kill them. One 9mm Parabellum from an M9, they're pretty much knocked out for this round.

[Funch]

Uhm... what the fuck? One bullet, they go down, this is real life. I'd only shoot someone once, I don't need to kill them. One 9mm Parabellum from an M9, they're pretty much knocked out for this round.

I disagree. Many police departments have switched from 9mm to .40 S&W, some up to .45 ACP.

The FBI uses .40 S&W and .45 ACP. They have an MP5 chambered in 10mm.

There have been numerous accounts where the 9mm has failed to stop attackers, police reports and military combat documentation.

Why else do you think most SOCOM units prefer .45 handguns?

One 9mm may not do the job. Knockdown power is generally bullshit. You will just put a smaller hole through them, with a smaller temporary and permanent wound cavity than a .40 or .45. Those others have enough energy to separate the tissue more.

http://www.firearmst.....20US M882.jpg

http://www.firearmst.....230gr FMJ.jpg

So I ask you...What the fuck? This is real life.

[MSpencer]

The FBI uses .40 S&W and .45 ACP. They have an MP5 chambered in 10mm.

The 10mm was discontinued in the 80s after the FBI and SWAT teams switched back to the 9mm after increased budget difficulties. H&K also said that it would reduce costs, and it did. God damned beaurocratic government.
http://hkpro.com/MP5-10.htm


{I hate writing in quote}

"One 9mm may not do the job. Knockdown power is generally bullshit. You will just put a smaller hole through them, with a smaller temporary and permanent wound cavity than a .40 or .45. Those others have enough energy to separate the tissue more. "

Then put a second tiny hole in them, they'll prolly stop then. That's why law enforcement goes for 2 in the chest, 1 in the head. If the head shot misses, the 2 in the chest will disable the person. Even wearing armor, you'll still get knocked on your ass.

"Why else do you think most SOCOM units prefer .45 handguns?"

Why do you think the M9 replaced the M1911? A pointless question. :|

"I disagree. Many police departments have switched from 9mm to .40 S&W, some up to .45 ACP. "

This is gonna be fun to explain to you how most police departments are using the Beretta 92F (M9 Tactical Pistol w/ only a 10 round mag) and the Glock 17 or in some cases 24 (An almost indestructable, light handgun with a 14 round (Glock 17) or a 10 round (Glock 24) clip). So I ask, what the fuck is going on in your corner of the world? Sure a bigger caliber puts a bigger hole, but mostly, one 9mm will finish the bitch off. If not, you've always got another couple ready to fire.

Want a comparison?

M9:
Primary function: Semiautomatic pistol
Builder: Beretta and Beretta USA
Length: 8.54 inches (21.69 centimeters)
Width: 1.50 inches (3.81 centimeters)
Height: 5.51 inches (14 centimeters)
Barrel length: 4.92 inches (12.5 centimeters)
Weight fully loaded: 2.55 pounds (1.16 kilograms)
Bore diameter: 9mm (approximately .355 inches)
Maximum effective range: 152.5 feet (50 meters)
Magazine capacity: 15 rounds
Muzzle velocity: 1200 feet (365 meters) per second
Unit Replacement Cost: $263
Marine Corps Inventory: 82,000


M1911:
Primary function: Semiautomatic pistol
Length: 8.625 inches (21.91 centimeters)
Length of barrel: 5.03 inches (12.78 centimeters)
Weight:
Magazine empty: 2.5 pounds (1.14 kg)
Magazine loaded: 3.0 pounds (1.36 kg)
Bore diameter: .45 caliber
Maximum effective range: 82.02 feet (25 meters)
Muzzle velocity: 830 feet (253 meters) per second
Magazine capacity: 7 rounds
Unit Replacement Cost: $242

Course, fuck that!
PETITION TO ARM POLICEMEN WITH THE M16A2!

[Funch]

Actually, many have switched. Trust me, I have many publications.

Let's see:

MEU/SOC and Force Recon (not technically SOCOM)=Mk 23 and 1911
SEALs=Mk 23 SOCOM and 1911
Delta= Mk 23 SOCOM and 1911
Rangers= M9
Combat Controller and PJs: 1911s

Only the Rangers still carry the M9 by default. My cousin-in-law is a Ranger who recently got back from Iraq, and he switched to a 1911.

The majority of police departments now carry Glocks. Many chambered in .45

FBI still uses the 10mm MP5. In Law Enforcement, the Fed came and passed around the 10mm bullet hose. The guns have been discontinued, but they are still in inventory. HK is looking to sell the .45 UMP to the FBI soon.

My corner of the world? I suggest you learn some more about guns and wound ballistics. Here in Idaho, a State Trooper was killed after she shot a drugged up perp 7 times with a .40 S&W. Under similar circumstances, the .45 dropped a druggie perp in 2 shots. Some people have had whole mags of 9mm dumped into em and still don't go down. One or two shots just may not do it.

But the 9mm will do for you, since your combat experience has shown that you can constantly score head shots under stress. Oh wait...

I'm talking my shit based off of reports and research. You are talking like you've done it. Most police depts carry the Beretta? In the early 90's that was the case. Almost all police depts here carry Glock, SIG, or HK.

Other big, high-speed units, such as LAPD SWAT and FBI HRT use 1911s. They shy away from the M9.

The M9 isn't that great. Early in it's life, they had bad slides. Never a good record of consistent one shot stops. In Iraq, they malf all the time due to bad mags. The M9, and the 9mm for that matter, aren't very good choices. The US adopted the 9mm to conform to NATO standards, since we did make the rest of the nations change rifle calibers twice.

If people weren't such pussies, I would agree with you, and have most policemen carry the AR-15 series of rifle. Of course they would have a sidearm. 1911 all the way.

[MSpencer]

Actually, many have switched.  Trust me, I have many publications.

Let's see:

MEU/SOC and Force Recon  (not technically SOCOM)=Mk 23 and 1911
SEALs=Mk 23 SOCOM and 1911
Delta= Mk 23 SOCOM and 1911
Rangers= M9
Combat Controller and PJs: 1911s

Only the Rangers still carry the M9 by default.  My cousin-in-law is a Ranger who recently got back from Iraq, and he switched to a 1911.

The majority of police departments now carry Glocks.  Many chambered in .45

FBI still uses the 10mm MP5.  In Law Enforcement, the Fed came and passed around the 10mm bullet hose.  The guns have been discontinued, but they are still in inventory.  HK is looking to sell the .45 UMP to the FBI soon.

My corner of the world?  I suggest you learn some more about guns and wound ballistics.  Here in Idaho, a State Trooper was killed after she shot a drugged up perp 7 times with a .40 S&W.  Under similar circumstances, the .45 dropped a druggie perp in 2 shots.  Some people have had whole mags of 9mm dumped into em and still don't go down.  One or two shots just may not do it.

But the 9mm will do for you, since your combat experience has shown that you can constantly score head shots under stress.  Oh wait...

I'm talking my shit based off of reports and research.  You are talking like you've done it.  Most police depts carry the Beretta?  In the early 90's that was the case.  Almost all police depts here carry Glock, SIG, or HK.    

Other big, high-speed units, such as LAPD SWAT and FBI HRT use 1911s.  They shy away from the M9.

The M9 isn't that great.  Early in it's life, they had bad slides.  Never a good record of consistent one shot stops.  In Iraq, they malf all the time due to bad mags.  The M9, and the 9mm for that matter, aren't very good choices.  The US adopted the 9mm to conform to NATO standards, since we did make the rest of the nations change rifle calibers twice.

What really bothers me is that statement about the handguns used by military units. The US Military adopted the M9 under pressure from Congress, and it's the default handgun. You can't just say "I'm the colonel of an MEU, today we're gonna use M1911s!". The reason why they aren't used much is because they have the SAME problems as other weapons! RELIABILITY!

Do you know every Marine, SEAL, Delta Operator, and Pararescue Jumper in the US Armed Forces? No. A lot of them will still use the M9, little recoil compared to the M1911, and a good, solid handgun.

Oh and did you look at my link? The FBI took them OUT of inventory because they don't want to buy the now expensive ammo for it since the market said fuckit to the 10mm.

And post your sources, you sound like you're talking out of your ass.

[Funch]

I sound like I'm talking out of my ass? Hmm...my sources are legit. Read up on wound ballistics. Also, you referred to the Glock as having a clip. It's called a magazine. Clips hold ammo, mags feed. The only firearm iffy on this is the Garand, since the clip is used in the feeding process, but does not do the action itself.

I'm not the one saying most police depts carry the M9, which isn't the case.

SOCOM units use unconventional weapons. The MEU still uses the 1911 because it suits their role better. They may have to use their handgun in combat, unlike most of the logistic personnel who carry the M9 instead of a rifle.

The 1911 is without a doubt more reliable and combat proven than the M9.
http://www.sftt.org/...e06102003a.html

"9-mm. Beretta: There was general dissatisfaction with this weapon. First and foremost, soldiers do not feel it possesses sufficient stopping power. They desire a modification to allow for more accurate firing during limited visibility - tritium on the sight posts was a specific recommendation.

The 9-mm. magazine performed very poorly. Soldiers were stretching the spring in order to provide sufficient force to feed rounds into the chamber. Soldiers were not satisfied with the guidance from higher to not stretch the spring and only load 10 rounds in the 15-round magazine."

Check out this:
http://www.full-auto...cle_meu-soc.htm

I have a library in my room, full of firearms encyclopedias. Authors include Kokalis, Hogg, Long, Taylor, and many others. I've done my fair share of shooting. Currently enrolled in ROTC, in the process of enlisting in to the Army, shooting for Airborne. I have multiple relatives in the armed forces. I generally know my firearms.

Out of curiosity, do you what action the 1911, 1935 HP, Glock, and SIG handguns use? Be specific here. Many modern designs use the same thing too. Show me you know your shit.

[MSpencer]

READ THIS AGAIN:
M9:
Primary function: Semiautomatic pistol
Builder: Beretta and Beretta USA
Length: 8.54 inches (21.69 centimeters)
Width: 1.50 inches (3.81 centimeters)
Height: 5.51 inches (14 centimeters)
Barrel length: 4.92 inches (12.5 centimeters)
Weight fully loaded: 2.55 pounds (1.16 kilograms)
Bore diameter: 9mm (approximately .355 inches)
Maximum effective range: 152.5 feet (50 meters)
Magazine capacity: 15 rounds
Muzzle velocity: 1200 feet (365 meters) per second
Unit Replacement Cost: $263
Marine Corps Inventory: 82,000


MARINE CORPS INVENTORY: 82,000!

""9-mm. Beretta: There was general dissatisfaction with this weapon. First and foremost, soldiers do not feel it possesses sufficient stopping power. They desire a modification to allow for more accurate firing during limited visibility - tritium on the sight posts was a specific recommendation. "

Do you want a medal? You proved that it may not have the stopping power needed to kill someone. Law enforcement just needs to take the person DOWN.

"SOCOM units use unconventional weapons. The MEU still uses the 1911 because it suits their role better. They may have to use their handgun in combat, unlike most of the logistic personnel who carry the M9 instead of a rifle."

THE MEU?! THERE ARE MORE THAN ONE YOU KNOW!

You win. Want a fucking medal?

[Funch]

READ THIS AGAIN:
M9:  
Primary function: Semiautomatic pistol  
Builder: Beretta and Beretta USA  
Length: 8.54 inches (21.69 centimeters)  
Width: 1.50 inches (3.81 centimeters)  
Height: 5.51 inches (14 centimeters)  
Barrel length: 4.92 inches (12.5 centimeters)  
Weight fully loaded: 2.55 pounds (1.16 kilograms)  
Bore diameter: 9mm (approximately .355 inches)  
Maximum effective range: 152.5 feet (50 meters)  
Magazine capacity: 15 rounds  
Muzzle velocity: 1200 feet (365 meters) per second  
Unit Replacement Cost: $263  
Marine Corps Inventory: 82,000  


MARINE CORPS INVENTORY: 82,000!

""9-mm. Beretta: There was general dissatisfaction with this weapon. First and foremost, soldiers do not feel it possesses sufficient stopping power. They desire a modification to allow for more accurate firing during limited visibility - tritium on the sight posts was a specific recommendation. "

Do you want a medal? You proved that it may not have the stopping power needed to kill someone. Law enforcement just needs to take the person DOWN.

"SOCOM units use unconventional weapons. The MEU still uses the 1911 because it suits their role better. They may have to use their handgun in combat, unlike most of the logistic personnel who carry the M9 instead of a rifle."

THE MEU?! THERE ARE MORE THAN ONE YOU KNOW!

You win. Want a fucking medal?

My bad, don't get your panties in a knot.

My mistake. Yes, there are multiple Marine Expeditionary Units (3 I believe).

I'm just trying to say the M9 and the 9mm round in general isn't that great in general.

Didn't know you were taking this so hard.

[MSpencer]

I'm not, you're just being a fucktard about it.

[Funch]

Maybe if you wouldn't come off as such a sardonic asshole the first time around, I wouldn't come off as a "fuck tard".

Either way, it seems as if you have shit your pants in a fit at this point.

[MSpencer]

Now THAT'S being a fucktard.

[Funch]

Now THAT'S being a fucktard.

Thank you.

[MSpencer]

It's how you become known as DickMunch, I mean DickFunch!