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#1 Sûlherokhh

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Posted 16 March 2007 - 12:29 PM

Suggestions-Thread

This is the compiled list of our suggestions sofar. Most of them originally came from me, or at least i wrote them down. I'll add to them , once new suggestions come up, and any appropriate comments from the thread. Let me remind you, the things listed here, even if they make a really nice addition to the mod, have a low priority, or else are moved to the ToDo-thread. - Sûl


Part 1: Suggestions for the final release

  • Have the Gondor soldiers wear a mail hauberk until they get the HA upgrade. Then they wear breastplates. That's what i call heavy armor, lol.
    - 'Being worked on? Not sure.' (Sûlherokhh)
  • Barracks have Ranks (1 to 3). We might have 'Barrack'-type buildings confer its Rank to the unit it produces (like the Mûmak-Pen already does). Leveling up a Barrack would then be even more sweet (remove the automatic Banner Carrier at Rank 2 though).
    - 'No comment so far.'
  • Formations
    a) Remove the STANCES. Period. Its not visual enough.
    b) Introduce a FORMATION for every unit, especially Archer Hordes, that makes the unit stop moving, but still lets it attack everything in sight (like the Porcupine-Formation)
    c) Slow movement FORMATION for Melee Hordes (as with Gondor Soldiers) plus maybe extra armour versus Arrows (hiding behind the shields).
    - 'No comment so far.'
  • Remove the current palantir images for the MOTW, Mordor, and Isengard units and replace them with the original palantir images from the first game, and find some pics from the movies for some of the other units like the Elves and Goblins.
    - 'That is a matter of taste of course, but i liked the BfME1 images better then the sepia toned new ones for BfME2. Changing them back is easy, but a lot of work.' (Sûlherokhh)
    - 'Changing art is easy technically but an enormous workload, and I for one like the sepia art, and that also goes through ALL art, even structures and there's simply no way I'll change all art in the game.' (Nazgûl)
  • I was also realized that ther is something wrong with Glorfindel's hair colour, its supposed to be blonde not white! (in the ToDo list)
    - 'Glorfindel will get his blonde hair, ...' (Nazgûl)
  • Howabout adding King Brand to the Dwarven faction?
    - 'I'll see what I can do. The problem with adding units is just that they require audio as well, ... But I agree, they're kinda short on heroes and archer units.' (Nazgûl)
    - 'You can use the King Brand model from the Deluxe mod? They had a good model...' (MordorSlayer)
  • Try to get rid of those ugly, disgusting, jagged-ass shadows.
    - 'Shadows cam be fixed with higher res (I think), but it will SERIOUSLY lag that game, ... I doubt I will increase their pixel structure, but I might try it. ... I think they're ok.' (Nazgûl)
  • Library-buildings for uprades
    a)Add either a 'library' building for each faction or a fortress extension that provides upgrades for Heroes and possibly other units.
    b) Let heroes start with only a few powers, but DO NOT let them gain more by increasing their rank. Instead let them gain additional powers by 'buying' them in the library. Maybe some of the hero powers are still gained by rank. I suggest mostly things like 'berserker-rage', crippling strike etc., but not magic spells or FO-artillery
    c) The library might either have a submenu for each hero and their specific powers, or it might provide general upgrades, used for each and every hero (specifically, this is the only fitting way for the CaH).
    d) Some sample names: Library of Minas Tirith (MotW), House of Learning - a grove with peaceful trees and maybe the mirror of Galadriel (Elves), Hall of Alchemy (Dwarves), Chamber of Artifacts (Isengard), Black Pit or Sorcery Pit (Mordor), Summoning Chamber (Wild). (In the ToDo list with some changes)
    - I say this is DEFENITELY a good idea! As long as we can do it... I want it! :p (Nazgûl)
    - I like it too! I prefer the second alternative (Fortress Extension?- Sûl). But does it mean that heroes are still gonna be really expensive? And I would think twice because what about CAHs? ... (Uruk King)
  • The whole System of Repairing Buildings is a bit inconsistent. I suggest:
    a) All upgraded walls leave rubble too. And all rubble can be repaired to it's old state. But not via a repair button (like the gates for example).
    b) Nothing (except wild structures. This is a cool faction feature) self-repairs after 200 seconds of delay. Yeah!
    c) All damaged buildings and all rubble can be repaired (only) by porters. We must reimplement EA's porter-repair function: Or the building must be sold and newly build. Huhay!
    (In the ToDo list with some changes)
    - 'I love 90% of it! (Nazgûl).'
  • Men of the West additions
    a) ... the entmoot could be added to the Rohan minifaction, because in theory the Ents do live in the Rohan kingdom.
    b) Maybe the Edoras Royal guards could be added as a spearmen unit for Rohan and/or adding Denethor and Gamling to MOTW.
    - Those ideas are in theory good, but it would compromise balance as Men already have Siege weapons in their Trebuchets. They also have a powerful spear unit in Gondor Tower Guards. ... But I still like the general thought of your idea... (Nazgûl)
  • Adjust the AI placement of resource buildings on all maps to adjust to the already implemented smaller claim area. Include the building of sawmills for evil factions. Resource buildings of all kinds should benefit from being close to a fortress or market. Let the Fortress provide a positive leadership bonus on those buildings close by and a negative leadership bonus if they are far away. I don't want to limit the building of farms but have them even closer to home. Leadership should range from +20% to -20%.
    - No comment yet.
  • Making the Eagle and Drake SuperFortressUpgrades of the Elves and Wild Faction into unselectable protection, much like the singular wargs are the watchdogsIsengard? We'd have to move Drogoth back to the hero list, unless that's the one we wanted.
    - Hmmm, naaah - don't really like that... (Nazgûl)
    - I don't like the idea of fortress slave creatures. I rather have a new structure for each faction with those, if we're gonna have them. But not tied to the fortresses (Nazgûl)
  • Most 'evil' army killers (meteors, MordorFortress-Fireball, Hero-Fireball, Trollmace, Mumaktrample etc.) and some of the 'good' army killers (Flood, Burning Sunlight, Wizard Blast) should really hurt just about every one in front of or within the area of effect. Almost all of the should damage neutral objects. Especially all the sweet little animals hopping around. Noone said that living in a warzone is all pancakes and orange juice!
    - But yes, those weapons should defenitely hurt eveyone. That is realism, AND it also ads some sort of "strategy" since you'd had to be careful where using them. Let's do it! (Nazgûl)
    - I imagine ... (hurting neutral animals requires extra coding) ..., as they are not attackable normally. (Zimoo)
...


Part 2: Suggestions for an experimental 'Director's Cut' :lol:
  • Existing troops use up resources over time ---> Upkeep.
    - 'In theory cool, but it would make it possible to spawn too many units ...' (Nazgûl)
  • No automatic reinforcements at level 2 (banner carrier). Banner carrier adds a reinforcement button to the horde.
    - '... 1) it's a big step/job and 2) I'm not sure I really buy the idea yet. Maybe later on when we've cought up on the list?' (Nazgûl)
  • Include the sound customizer for the added benefit of listening to your own customized list of battle- building- and explorationtracks.
    - 'Nothing is impossible, and many things could be considered once we're finished with the actual game/play/units and such.' (Nazgûl)
  • I've adviced it before, but that was a long time age: add more Lotr-music. No other mod has ever done that before, and it would make for the ultimate Lotr-experience!
    - 'Yeah I'm ALL for extra music as long as it's LotRs music.' (Nazgûl)





My original post, for reference to the answers following this post:

While i like the mod very much, there are still a few things i would like to add, if i had the time.

  • I would like to reduce the number of wallhubs on a long stretch to two (beginning and end). Easily done, and if you badly need one on the stretch, each wall segment can be converted. I succesfully implemented that last year in a beta of EM.
  • I believe it also possible to have destroyed wall segments leave permanent rubble. That rubble could have a repair button (like the gate), so you wouldn't have to rebuild the whole wall stretch. I was experimenting on that last year.
  • The so far craziest idea i had (which i think would be no obstacle to the movie feel of SEE) would be to do partly away with Command Points. Let existing units simply cost resources over time. that way you would need to have an income for the upkeep of an army. Command Points could still be used to cap the number of heroes in the game. A special ability of a hero might even reduce the upkeep of troops around him. I had no time to try this one out, but i have made a mental map of what i would need to do. Which goes hand in hand with...
  • Don't let banner carriers and healing wells pop up missing units out of thin air. Let a banner carrier add a reinforcement button to the horde.
What do you guys think? Would it destroy the movie feeling. Balance would have to be reworked for a few items of course.


Edited by Nazgûl, 08 May 2007 - 02:41 PM.

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#2 Nazgûl

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Posted 16 March 2007 - 01:44 PM

1. Like that too... Sure, why not :lol:

2. Would look cool, but not really needed. As stated in the PDF you only need to click and draw a line between hubs, and walls will repair :p

3. In theory cool, but it would make it possible to spawn too many units that would lag the game. I have a super bad ass computer, but it still lags sometimes when it gets REALLY intense. And I "only" play at x2 for commanpoints, and Heroes uses none.

4. How would that reinforcement button work in game?

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#3 Sûlherokhh

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Posted 16 March 2007 - 02:39 PM

...
4. How would that reinforcement button work in game?


The theory is this:

The healing spell has two powers; regenerating wounded units and adding one unit to the horde. The banner carrier (added to each horde either manually or by leveling up) has the second power. This power could be removed from the banner carrier and given to a companion object (invisible, untouchable). Lets call it a 'Reinforcment Ping' (RP). All hordes allready have a command in their commandset that lets them buy a banner carrier. Once bought, change the command set. The new button looks just like the old one and is in the same place. But its used to build an RP (using the BUILD command in the button, which can be pressed multiple times to stack the building, i think.). And it can be set to a cost, e.g. one tenth or twentieth the cost of the full horde. The RP reinforces the unit once, then disappears (lifetime a few seconds, enough for reinforcing the horde, like the second part of the healing spell). That's it.


...
3. In theory cool, but it would make it possible to spawn too many units that would lag the game. I have a super bad ass computer, but it still lags sometimes when it gets REALLY intense. And I "only" play at x2 for commanpoints, and Heroes uses none.
...


In this case, there could be a CP limit as well. It could be put right to the max, not depending on CP-giving buildings. The idea is that the troops are limited by how you can provide for food/money over a period of time. It would also give the pillage ability new meaning. :lol:


To stretch the hub-less wall segments, go into the INI-files with the fortresses in them. there are the wall-objects. Somewhere in there (don't have the ini-files at hand) it says something like this:

...
wallsegment
wallsegment
wallsegment
wallsegment
wallhub
...

It says this for each and every kind of wall that can be built in game.


Simply insert many many wallsegments, so that it looks like this:

...
wallsegment
wallsegment
wallsegment
wallsegment
wallsegment
wallsegment
wallsegment
wallsegment
wallsegment
wallsegment
wallsegment
wallsegment
wallsegment
wallsegment
wallsegment
wallsegment
wallsegment
wallsegment
wallsegment
wallsegment
wallhub
...



I remember adjusting the range that wallhubs and walls can be placed at least in two places (fortress wallhub and freebuilt wallhub). I can't remember exactly if it was really necessary or if i was just toying around.

Edited by Sulherokhh, 16 March 2007 - 02:49 PM.

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#4 Nazgûl

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Posted 16 March 2007 - 06:07 PM

I will implement the wall segement thing for next release :lol:

The other things are noted... Will consider them

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#5 rikolous

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Posted 20 March 2007 - 07:59 PM

I noticed that when seiging fortresses, the towers have the same range as catapults, nd they do alot of damage to them, this reduces the need for tactical knowledge and isnt that the whole point for this mod :D
Posted Image
Release Your WKD Side ;)

#6 Nazgûl

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Posted 20 March 2007 - 08:49 PM

Hehe well... actually it just tactics. U see... first of all you need MANY catapults. Secondly you need a lot of BACKUP for them. That is units to protect them, and to draw fire. Like soldiers in tight formations, or strong heroes maybe. Other extra siege units, whatever...

I usually don't charge until I have like 10 catapults at least. Then I try to strike the towers closet to me first! Like sentry towers! When they're out, I might have lost 1 or 2 catapults. Next go for the expansions on the fortress, all the time keeping the siege units as far away as possible and protecting them, with say cavalry...

Together with some heavy spells like Earthquake, Flood, Rain of Fire, and such, the fortress could come down.

The general idea with far reaching towers is one of the basics of the mod. I hated when 1 or 2 siege units could (before) smash a fortress to pieces in 30 seconds without you beeing able to do ANYTHING unless you send some kinde of unit against them. Towers should be able to shoot far, and they do. But with enough catapults (or whatever siege units u use) they don't stand a chance, except minor defence and even out the ods a little bit. It's all meant to be that way... You'll get use to it when U figure of new tactics. Remember that this mod is quite different from the original game :sad2::D

Edited by Nazgûl, 20 March 2007 - 08:51 PM.

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#7 Sûlherokhh

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Posted 20 March 2007 - 09:51 PM

Apart from these suggestions, ...
  • Increase wall length without hub (allready in the ToDoList)
  • Destroyed wall segments leave permanent rubble with a repair button (allready in the ToDoList)
  • Existing troops use up resources over time ---> Upkeep.
  • No automatic reinforcements at level 2 (banner carrier). Banner carrier adds a reinforcement button to the horde.


... i thought about:
  • Including the sound customizer for the added benefit of listening to your own customized list of battle- building- and explorationtracks. I'd have to update the music scripts for S.E.E. and ask bsemf from the EM-Team for the additional software he wrote.

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#8 Nazgûl

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Posted 20 March 2007 - 11:16 PM

- Existing troops use up resources over time ---> Upkeep.
>>> I didn't ad that yet, cause 1) it's a big step/job and 2) I'm not sure I really buy the idea yet. Maybe later on when we've cought up on the list? :)

- No automatic reinforcements at level 2 (banner carrier). Banner carrier adds a reinforcement button to the horde.
>>> Same here. I still don't really understand the benfit of this... Hm, woudn't that require that you MANUALLY reinfoce your units? U don't think that would be a bit of micro managing? :/

- Sound Cutomizer??? You mean like a tool?

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#9 Sûlherokhh

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Posted 21 March 2007 - 01:44 PM

- Existing troops use up resources over time ---> Upkeep.
>>> I didn't ad that yet, cause 1) it's a big step/job and 2) I'm not sure I really buy the idea yet. Maybe later on when we've cought up on the list? :)

- No automatic reinforcements at level 2 (banner carrier). Banner carrier adds a reinforcement button to the horde.
>>> Same here. I still don't really understand the benfit of this... Hm, woudn't that require that you MANUALLY reinfoce your units? U don't think that would be a bit of micro managing? :/
...


Yeah, you're probably right. Can wait. But i don't think this would be too much micromanagment. To let a unit recuperate a player usually moves it someplace safe and checks on it every once in a while. It would be easy to press that button 5 times in a row if the button supports multiple purchases in a row.

...
- Sound Cutomizer??? You mean like a tool?


...
6. Elvenstar Sound Customizer

In Elvenstar Mod II 4.0+ there is a unique feature which allows you to listen to your own Music ingame! This feature includes a tool for creating your own playlist. That tool requires Microsoft .NET Framework 2.0. With a new menu in your fortress you can choose whether you like to hear the original BfME II playlist, your customized playlist or a mixture of both.
...


Of course we won't need the program, as it's easy to plug in mp3's manually, once the custom music script is in place. Or someone could write another program. :p

Pics:

Posted Image

Translation
  • Alle Guten Völker - All Good Factions
  • Kampf - Battle
  • Erkundung - Exploration (playing when having few units)
  • Basisbau - Basebuilding
  • Finale - Finale (when having lots of units and/or all upgrades and/or all spells
  • Elben - Elves
  • Hinzufügen - Add Song (seleced song on the right will replace/fill selected slot on the left)
  • Löschen - Empty Slot
  • Aktualisieren - Refresh
  • Importieren - Import previously compiled tracklist
  • Exportieren - Save compiled tracklis
  • Ordner öffnen - Browse folder
  • <-Play - Play selected slot on the left side
  • Play-> - Play selected track on the right side
A total of 128 slots can be filled with custom tracks.

Edited by Sulherokhh, 21 March 2007 - 02:37 PM.

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#10 Nazgûl

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Posted 21 March 2007 - 03:58 PM

Oh boy oh boy... well... hmm... I tell you what. Nothing is impossible, and many things could be considered once we're finished with the actual game/play/units and such. This feels more like an addition to the game, not a part of the mod itself. I don't dislike it, but I think we should concentrate on the items that really expand the game itself to start with. Like 1) fixing bugs 2) polishing skins 3) adding stuff, and so on... :p

This seems like a bit to much work to be toying around with at the moment? But when the ToDO list is done, there will be room for discussions on how to put the "." over the i, as we say here... :)

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#11 Sûlherokhh

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Posted 23 March 2007 - 02:17 PM

...
This seems like a bit to much work to be toying around with at the moment? But when the ToDO list is done, there will be room for discussions on how to put the "." over the i, as we say here... :)


Allrighty! :huh:


Edit:

I would also suggest, as the current discussion in the screenshots thread is kind of about it, to do the following:
  • Remove the steel breastplates of Gondor Soldiers and Gondor Knights and replace them with mail hauberks, keeping the steel arm and leg greaves.
I know that a) they have them in the movie and b) that it would be a LOT of work. But i always found this portrayal of Gondor's troops kind of silly. Bear in mind that this is just a suggestion. I simply like to know what you think about this idea. :p

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#12 Nazgûl

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Posted 23 March 2007 - 02:28 PM

I havent watched the movies for a while, but perhaps you could post some screens? Reskinning them is not such a hassle since those skins are quite easy to read (understand the layout). Some other units in game have really SICK layouts of the skins so it's quite hard to understand how they're mapped to the model, but these guys are pretty easy. But I need screens... :p

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#13 Sûlherokhh

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Posted 23 March 2007 - 02:50 PM

You know how they look ingame. That's what they look like in the movie:
Posted Image

I would like it much better if they looked something like this:
Posted Image
Maybe keep the shoulder pieces of Game/Movie-version. It would weigh a lot either way, yet chainmail is more suited to melee combat than a plate hauberk, mobilitywise. Unless you are jousting, that is! ;-)

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#14 zimoo

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Posted 23 March 2007 - 02:50 PM

They do have the plate *throws up* in the movies, but Sul was talking about making them more book-ish :p

If you MUST have plate, then use that as an armoured version and give them leather/mail as unupgrdaed IMO
Posted Image
Posted Image
Posted Image
Posted Image
Posted Image
Posted Image

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#15 Sûlherokhh

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Posted 23 March 2007 - 03:10 PM

Although this would be more book-ish and would add more realism, this is about something else. I simply don't like the polished walking tank like look of Gondor Soldiers. War is dirty. Gear should emphasize practicality. Especially for well trained, simple soldiers, whose tasks are to follow orders, kill and survive, sometimes without food and sleep. Mail is quite sufficient to catch a moderate blow. When it comes to deflecting arrows, that's where their shields come in. Plate against arrows is painful. Even if the arrow does not penetrate, the metal will bend inward.

Of course the main if not only reason to change armor is: It simply looks better! :p

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#16 Nazgûl

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Posted 23 March 2007 - 03:27 PM

*lol* You guys are just as freaky as me, but in a different way... Remember though - the golden rule of this mod - it's based on the MOVIES, and not the books. I agree in the logic about mails vs plates, but Im also quite oriented in real history and during the dark ages plates were quite common amongst knights (and in movies too if you've seen the classic Excalibur), not saying that gondor soldiers are knights (except the riders though), but... they DO have the plates in the movies as we obviously see on that screen, and this one...

Posted Image

And thats why I'll stick with them, sorry :)
Allthough, just like the Uruks the Gondor soldiers could really benefit from darker metal, than that supershiny look... That I will fix pronto! :p

Edited by Nazgûl, 23 March 2007 - 03:28 PM.

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#17 Sûlherokhh

Sûlherokhh

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Posted 23 March 2007 - 03:32 PM

Your logic is impeccable! ;-)

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#18 Mordor Slayer

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Posted 23 March 2007 - 03:38 PM

Allthough, just like the Uruks the Gondor soldiers could really benefit from darker metal, than that supershiny look... That I will fix pronto! :)


Ooh, but I love their shiny looks. They look so... powerful :p .
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#19 Nazgûl

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Posted 23 March 2007 - 03:50 PM

I'm going for the look on those screens... kind of half the shiny look they have now :) It's great to be the boss... moooah *lol* But mostly it's impossible to please all :p hehe

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#20 Mordor Slayer

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Posted 23 March 2007 - 10:47 PM

EDIT: You're great at marketing MS, but you suck at posting in the right thread *lol* ;) I moved this here from "Marketing"... since this is more of a suggestion for the mod, not marketing :D Otherwise GREAT job on getting contact with him, since he's one of the legends :) I beleive I'm gonna need some help with those animations though. I hope they're better than the ones we have now... Cahik was kind to guide me hos to enable the anims for eagles, but like described earlier, those work but are not that good so far. I'm probably gonna keep them though, but it would be nice to perfect them ///Nazgûl
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Yeaj, I got a message from Deezire, an answer to my question if we could use the animations he made for the dying nazgul/eagles for his EE mod for TBFME I, and this is what he says:

"Sure go ahead and use mine - Im pretty sure the anim is in the game files, you'd have to take my code apart and see how I used it.

I'd be grateful if in return you could acknowledge me with a link to my site."

So someone should download the mod and look if we can put the animations in TBFME II, and done! Now I can't remember what kind of animations he made (maybe he just disabled the big 'boom', like you said), but it's worth checking out. I've got an old screenshot of his mod:

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Edited by Nazgûl, 24 March 2007 - 12:06 AM.

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