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#41 Mathijs

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Posted 16 February 2009 - 07:01 PM

Tolkien hated all forms of allegory, stop trying to dig it up in his own work.


Sorry to necro this back again, but I'd just like to point out that Tolkien and CS Lewis were very close friends, and as I recall, Tolkien even converted Lewis to Christianity. And I defy you to claim Narnia as something other than allegory. Unless this was a major source of contention between the two, it seems Tolkien did not hate all forms of allegory.

And just in general to everyone who has considered this at some point, which seems to be most of you: of course Tolkien used elements of genuine mythologies to create his own. As a matter of fact Gandalf is a dwarf from Norse mythology, Tolkien borrowed the name and applied it to a different character. Furthermore there are several clear ties to Serbian, Germanic, Christian (as already noted), Greco-Roman, Rus and Norse mythologies, if you care to look closely enough. Interestingly, my older sister wrote her university dissertation along these lines. There were numerous LotR and Narnia references in the essay, right up alongside Homer and Virgil. It was a damn fine essay.

Just because they were close friends (which I know), doesn't mean Tolkien liked allegory, or even approved of the extreme amount of allegory Lewis used.

''I cordially dislike allegory in all its manifestations, and always have done since I grew old and wary enough to detect its presence.''
-J. R. R. Tolkien

Similarity is not the same as allegory, and drawing inspiration from Norse mythology and the Finnish language isn't either.

Edited by Matias, 16 February 2009 - 07:02 PM.

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#42 Vortigern

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Posted 16 February 2009 - 10:01 PM

Well, I've got to give you that one, I guess. Point well proven, Matias.

@ Sulherokhh, or however you spell it: here is my sister's essay, hopefully attached to this post. I'm not entirely sure how it works, but I've attached it to something. I hope you enjoy it.

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#43 Sûlherokhh

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Posted 16 February 2009 - 10:15 PM

Thanks, digging it now. :shiftee:
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#44 Bart

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Posted 17 February 2009 - 03:34 PM

Everyone just calls him Sul :p. Does it mean anything, btw?
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#45 Sûlherokhh

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Posted 17 February 2009 - 07:03 PM

Something in the lines of 'Lord of the Sky". Remember Amon Sûl? It really means "Sky Peak". :p

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#46 Char

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Posted 04 May 2009 - 07:16 AM

I have a question! Are dwarves (inside tolkien's legendarium) regarded as stronger physically than men and elves? Or is this subject or belief product of other, newer (or older as in norse/germanic mythology) works of fantasy? Me myself, i've always believed that's how it is :grin:

Also, are uruk-hai stronger than men and dwarves physically per say? and how tall did they stood? (long has passed since i read the books, and the movies clearly depicted them as being tall, big and strong beings.

#47 Radspakr Wolfbane

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Posted 04 May 2009 - 08:53 AM

They are generally thought to be stronger.
Nothing is really said of the Uruk Hai's physical strength.

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#48 Florisz

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Posted 04 May 2009 - 11:01 AM

Hey! I want to know something: when did Aragorn look for Gollum. Because I watched The Hunt For Gollum yesterday and I couldn't remember it.
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#49 {IRS}Athos

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Posted 04 May 2009 - 09:31 PM

From The Tale of Years...

T.A. 3001- Gandalf seeks for news of Gollum and calls on the help of Aragorn.
T.A. 3009- Gandalf and Aragorn renew their hunt for Gollum at intervals during the next eight years, searching in the vales of Anduin, Mirkwood, and Rhovanion to the confines of Mordor. At some time during these years Gollum himself ventured into Mordor, and was captured by Sauron.
T.A. 3017- Gollum is released from Mordor. He is taken by Aragorn in the Dead Marshes, and brought to Thranduil in Mirkwood.


As for Char's question, I turn to a quote from Gimli.

"The legs of Men may lag on a rough road, while dwarf goes on, be the burden twice his own weight, Master Boromir!"


Then, of course, we get an interesting quote later on.

"Well, here we are, and here we must pass another night," said Boromir. "We need sleep, and even if Aragorn had a mind to pass the Gates of Argonath by night, we are all too tired -- except, no doubt, our sturdy dwarf."

Gimli made no reply: he was nodding as he sat.


Note that in Caradhras, Boromir and Aragorn, not Gimli, were called upon to forge a path ahead. The Dwarves were certainly stronger in proportion to their size, but overall Men were stronger. Dain's dwarves may have been the exception... they were greatly laden when they marched on the elf-host besieging Erebor, and after the battle of Nanduhirion they were said to have carried off enough weapons and armor to supply an army, in addition to a great weight of sorrow.
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#50 Elvenlord

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Posted 04 May 2009 - 10:05 PM

And don't forget it was the men who carries the boats at the river. So yes, I agree with the notion Men are stronger overall, but with dwarves stronger pound for pound. It's something like men, for their body weight, are actually stronger than horses, and ants are stronger than all of us :thumbsupsmiley:

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#51 Radspakr Wolfbane

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Posted 04 May 2009 - 10:08 PM

Note that in Caradhras, Boromir and Aragorn, not Gimli, were called upon to forge a path ahead. The Dwarves were certainly stronger in proportion to their size, but overall Men were stronger. Dain's dwarves may have been the exception... they were greatly laden when they marched on the elf-host besieging Erebor, and after the battle of Nanduhirion they were said to have carried off enough weapons and armor to supply an army, in addition to a great weight of sorrow.


You are overlooking the obvious Gimli didn't help because he is short not because he isn't strong.

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#52 Florisz

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Posted 05 May 2009 - 08:49 AM

Thank you IRS! :thumbsupdrool:
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#53 Char

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Posted 06 May 2009 - 08:56 AM

thanks a lot for the replies =) so, just saying, who would win on an arm wrestling contest? Boromir of Gimi?

#54 Vortigern

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Posted 06 May 2009 - 12:20 PM

Boromir. He'd just pick Gimli up and laugh, right up until Gimli then whacked him in the gonads with whatever body part was at the right height. It would rapidly devolve from arm-wrestling to real wrestling, methinks. Also, there's a different topic for this. Possibly two. Have a look around the Green Dragon and see if you can find them.
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#55 mike_

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Posted 06 May 2009 - 08:59 PM

Interestingly, Galadriel regarded Dwarves (particularly those of the House of Durin) as the 'greatest fighters to pit against the Orcs.'

#56 Rafv Nin IV

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Posted 06 May 2009 - 11:10 PM

Strange. You'd think the Valar would be slightly better fighters. :p

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#57 mike_

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Posted 07 May 2009 - 01:45 AM

Hush you :p

#58 Radspakr Wolfbane

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Posted 07 May 2009 - 02:39 AM

It wasn't just her who thought so,I think it is general opinion that Dwarves were the best warriors in Middle-Earth I think even Tolkien may have mentioned it at some point.

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#59 Gfire

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Posted 11 May 2009 - 04:10 PM

*buffs up guardians*

Is there an Orcish (black speech, I think,) name for Moria? What about Minas Morgul?
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#60 Lauri

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Posted 11 May 2009 - 08:05 PM

Yeah, I believe they called it Chôpdwárvziá, but I'm not 100% sure...

Minas Morgul though, I don't know...

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