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#1 duke_Qa

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Posted 20 March 2007 - 01:28 PM

http://news.bbc.co.u...ast/6470669.stm



dunno how much i should say on the topic, but in my opinion its about time to stop ignoring a people that has the right to vote for their own leaders, even if you don't like who that might be. and once they've gathered all political groups into one government, theres really not anything to do than stop starving them and start talking.



theres probably a few points i could make right away before posting like how the main argument against talking to the palestinian government is that "they are not abolishing violence" and "reckognize the state of Israel". but personally i don't see how you can control someone if you don't have wages for their police. And saying flat out that you accept the state of Israel, would in the worst case scenario mean that they would loose all rights of argument over land that has been taken from them the last 50 years, which would be wrong.



anyway, i hope other countries start talking with the palestinian government as quickly as possible so we can get a better situation for peace-talks in the this conflict and in the middle east generally.

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#2 Hostile

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Posted 20 March 2007 - 10:45 PM

The way I look at it, if you're a citizen of the west bank or gaza, and you vote in a world known terrorist organization, than you get what you deserve.

And how did you expect the US and Israel would treat a terrorist group known for targeting civilians using bombs and such. Don't make them out to be some down trodden saints.

Thier system is so corrupt it makes Saddam's accountant look like a qualified proffessional. I trully have sympathy for the suffering in those places, but alot of the problem is the people in charge.

I have more respect for hezbollah, at least they honestly tried to help the population during the 6 weeks of fighting. I DO NOT condone hezbollah for a second. Just another blood thirsty terrorist group.

But the so called palestinian government is a corrupt farce. Please do more research into how the palestinian goverment works there. I've had palestinians and egyptians tell me that ruling body is a joke of corruption.

#3 duke_Qa

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Posted 21 March 2007 - 01:54 AM

The way I look at it, if you're a citizen of the west bank or gaza, and you vote in a world known terrorist organization, than you get what you deserve.




Thier system is so corrupt it makes Saddam's accountant look like a qualified proffessional. I trully have sympathy for the suffering in those places, but alot of the problem is the people in charge.




so first we say that they shouldnt have voted for a bunch of people that we in the western world have on a terror-list, and then we say that their system is so corrupt that theres not really any options but for them to try to change it. so when Hamas was their only way to try to change the corruption that they had from before, they get whipped again because they picked someone we don't really want to have in charge. we would rather have "the corrupt people" in charge as long as they're easy to control. the palestinian government is the way we want it to be, and a government that actually works wouldnt be very good for Israel to cooperate with as they would have to start giving back stuff.



the isolation of the Hamas government was understandable since they havent really shown any true dedication to following any of the deals from the past. but this government is the combination of 97% of the palestinian people, which is like republicans cooperating with democrats about giving gay's full rights of marriage and adoption of children, and on top of that, total access to human stem cells for research on creation of medicines. to put it mildly, it's a cooperation that really has the potential to do great stuff if we actually take initiative and not keep on isolating them to their own problems.



how the hell are you supposed to have a peace process if you are flat out isolating one party from the peace-talks? especially when they've gathered in such a large group that practically the entire population is represented by it?

no, you have to start showing some interest for them, you have to start showing up and say "Great work guys, we're getting somewhere! Now we suggest you start looking at this to find out what to do next" instead of "welcome to 'the world hates you' phoneline, if you have done option A, B and C that we demand of you, please push 1... if you have not, please press 0...we thank you for your phonecall and wish you good luck with fulfilling the options".

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#4 Hostile

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Posted 21 March 2007 - 02:08 AM

The way I look at it, if you're a citizen of the west bank or gaza, and you vote in a world known terrorist organization, than you get what you deserve.




Thier system is so corrupt it makes Saddam's accountant look like a qualified proffessional. I trully have sympathy for the suffering in those places, but alot of the problem is the people in charge.




so first we say that they shouldnt have voted for a bunch of people that we in the western world have on a terror-list, and then we say that their system is so corrupt that theres not really any options but for them to try to change it. so when Hamas was their only way to try to change the corruption that they had from before, they get whipped again because they picked someone we don't really want to have in charge. we would rather have "the corrupt people" in charge as long as they're easy to control. the palestinian government is the way we want it to be, and a government that actually works wouldnt be very good for Israel to cooperate with as they would have to start giving back stuff.



the isolation of the Hamas government was understandable since they havent really shown any true dedication to following any of the deals from the past. but this government is the combination of 97% of the palestinian people, which is like republicans cooperating with democrats about giving gay's full rights of marriage and adoption of children, and on top of that, total access to human stem cells for research on creation of medicines. to put it mildly, it's a cooperation that really has the potential to do great stuff if we actually take initiative and not keep on isolating them to their own problems.



how the hell are you supposed to have a peace process if you are flat out isolating one party from the peace-talks? especially when they've gathered in such a large group that practically the entire population is represented by it?

no, you have to start showing some interest for them, you have to start showing up and say "Great work guys, we're getting somewhere! Now we suggest you start looking at this to find out what to do next" instead of "welcome to 'the world hates you' phoneline, if you have done option A, B and C that we demand of you, please push 1... if you have not, please press 0...we thank you for your phonecall and wish you good luck with fulfilling the options".

This is reality dude, if all the palestians voted for Hamas, than it looks like Hamas is gonna lead the government. But on that note, do you honestly think the western powers should even bother with a government elect that is a terrorist organization?

how the hell are you supposed to have a peace process if you are flat out isolating one party from the peace-talks? especially when they've gathered in such a large group that practically the entire population is represented by it?

Seems like you already summed up the major stepping stone haven't you? Can't seem to negotiate anything with a majority of the population supporting the destruction or non existance of Israel right? Would you negotiate with someone who refuses to acknowledge you even exist? And wants to remove you from the equation, and is in direct communication with powers that be that are working on such a goal?

The reason why I'm responding is because i know you're not stupid. How are you supposed to regulate negotiations with a govermnet that refuses to acknowledge you even exist?

#5 duke_Qa

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Posted 21 March 2007 - 03:05 AM

This is reality dude, if all the palestians voted for Hamas, than it looks like Hamas is gonna lead the government. But on that note, do you honestly think the western powers should even bother with a government elect that is a terrorist organization?


hamas got around 43% of the votes. now this new government consists of 97% of the political powers in Palestine. does the cooperation with Hamas make you Hamas? they are even in minority if you consider the other 54% united in their opinions.

also, the lists of terrorist organizations that the western world uses is partially another tool to stop people with opinions that opposes our own. naturally a majority of them use inhuman tactics, but a few have also changed for the better, and have ideologies much closer to our own. some are on the list because regimes that we like to have on our good side demands it. if you consider terrorists for terrorists no matter how much they change, then the only answer is to gas them all before they turn terrorist isnt it? Hamas is in my eyes a military group that has started to step up in the power-vacum after Arafat.



and one cultural quirk in the middle east is that military groups is the stepping stone for political groups, and they like to have direct control over a bunch of goons to do their dirty jobs down there(just look at Iraq, who does not have a group of AK-wielding fanatics to help them out in certain situations over there? in the news today a policeman said that 1/3rd of his troops are loyal to militants). even Abbas's group Fatah have militant forces, they were fighting against Hamas less than a few months ago, and we don't really define him as a terrorist. most likely because they've gotten further in the "political evolution" than Hamas have.



the thing is, if we don't talk to them and guide them in the right direction, they will continue using the wrong tactics to get attention. if we use the carrot to encourage organizing themselves into a nonviolent political organization, their dark past would not matter as much as the potential bright future. most of our societies rise from ground soaked in blood aswell, so i see no big difference in this happening other places aswell.





Seems like you already summed up the major stepping stone haven't you? Can't seem to negotiate anything with a majority of the population supporting the destruction or non existance of Israel right? Would you negotiate with someone who refuses to acknowledge you even exist? And wants to remove you from the equation, and is in direct communication with powers that be that are working on such a goal?

The reason why I'm responding is because i know you're not stupid. How are you supposed to regulate negotiations with a govermnet that refuses to acknowledge you even exist?




as said above, 43% vs 54% does not equal majority. also, Hamas representatives have said that they could accept a ceasefire with Israel if "full normalization of relations with Israel in exchange for Israeli withdrawal to the 1967 internationally recognized borders, implying Israeli evacuation of the West Bank, the Gaza Strip, east Jerusalem, the Golan Heights and the return of all Palestinian refugees and their descendants". this sentence in itself is a acceptance of Israels existence, naturally not written in such a way that the western world would find it pleasing enough.

It also brings up a core part of the problem, the argument for land.This is really what the entire situation is about, who has the right to what. personally i believe the borders from before the 6-day war would have been the most fair borders, but there will be raining fire and brimstone before those borders will see the light of day again, so something akin to it would have been nice...





its true that its hard to cooperate with someone who has problem saying things exactly the way we want to hear them, but if we truly want to find a solution to this situation, we have to do our best at trying to create cooperation and a positive base for future attempts of peacetalks. we are not making a good base for talks by cutting off their economic supplies and isolating them, because that makes them only less likely to want to cooperate with us in the long run. and as said before, the difference on this government and the Hamas government is that this one it 97%! its not just some group of fanatics that hates Israel, its the entire Palestinian population, and they want to talk and do their best at finding a solution. if we think about them as mere terrorists, we are considering the entire palestinian people as terrorists... and i presume thats not what you are saying?


edit:
also a bit of a digression, but thanks for noticing i'm not stupid :)

Edited by duke_Qa, 21 March 2007 - 03:09 AM.

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#6 Hostile

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Posted 21 March 2007 - 11:53 PM

The thing is, if you lose a war, especially a war attacking your enemy (Israel), than you can't say you're sorry and I want my land back. No modern nation has been attacked, gained land, and than gave it back.

That would be what one would call... erm... stupid.

Now let's entertain the thought of a minority goverment in the West Bank and Gaza, for a second, we also understand it's a coalition government. Made up of a number of smaller parts. You still have to acknowledge your negotiating partner even exists before you should expect them to talk to you.

That's common sense. The US acknowledges Iran exists, even despite the fact of no formal ties. There can't be any serious negotiations till Palestians realize Israel exists and they are not getting the land back that thier "arab brothers" lost in a war that happened 40 years ago.

That's not even reasonable. IMO Israel has been REAL patient on the subject. They are even open to giving some of the land back just to shut people up. Do you know of any nation willing to do that? Sharon ordered the dismantling of illegal settlements, did he not? I chose to use the word "illegal" for general reference purposes.

Do you seriously think there are many nations out thier that would do that? What exactly are you expecting the Israelis to do to please you (bleeding hearts)? Give them all the land back and mass migrate all thier settlements back to original 1967 borders, to please a non-existant (Palestine) nation that won't even accept the validity of Israels existance?

Are you crazy or something? Would you do that?

#7 narboza22

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Posted 22 March 2007 - 10:19 PM

You bring up a good point here that I have never heard a good answer too.
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#8 duke_Qa

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Posted 22 March 2007 - 11:04 PM

The thing is, if you lose a war, especially a war attacking your enemy (Israel), than you can't say you're sorry and I want my land back. No modern nation has been attacked, gained land, and than gave it back.

That would be what one would call... erm... stupid.


then again, the last war that people really got any major land exchange out of was 67 years ago. if we were to invade urope again these days considering the stuff that modern warfare has to worry about we would be in so deep shit you wouldnt even know it. the world has grown a mass-media and mentality that war is bad. and if you have to, it should be done with surgical precision with minmal losses.



Now let's entertain the thought of a minority goverment in the West Bank and Gaza, for a second, we also understand it's a coalition government. Made up of a number of smaller parts. You still have to acknowledge your negotiating partner even exists before you should expect them to talk to you.

That's common sense. The US acknowledges Iran exists, even despite the fact of no formal ties. There can't be any serious negotiations till Palestians realize Israel exists and they are not getting the land back that thier "arab brothers" lost in a war that happened 40 years ago.




to accept the existance of the state of Israel is probably hard for the palestinians because they do not want to lose the ability to argue over borderlines, which they might quickly do if they do say straight out "we accept Israel exists" because then Israel would say "we do exist, and we do exist within the borders we have right now, and since you agree that we exist, you have agreed on our borders". its not that they want to get everything back, the westbank is probably the most pressing one, and the Golan heights seems to be partially in discussion as it is, and half of Jerusalem. its basically what they had before the six day war, although Syria had like 100m extra of the golan heights right before that war which wouldnt be that important.



Do you seriously think there are many nations out thier that would do that? What exactly are you expecting the Israelis to do to please you (bleeding hearts)? Give them all the land back and mass migrate all thier settlements back to original 1967 borders, to please a non-existant (Palestine) nation that won't even accept the validity of Israels existance?


Are you crazy or something? Would you do that?


if thats what it takes to get peace without gassing everyone not on their side of the wall, then it would seem to be the best way of doing it. i wonder what other options that would give them the opportunity to make the relationship better down there? they can probably keep doing what they are doing right now and hope that a century of no variation will make the palestinians more complying. but then again, dozens of muslims are dying today because of some nephew of some prophet started his own branch of Islam 1300 years ago.



the only true way to get peace in the middle east right now is to cooperate, and not follow the "i'm the biggest so IM DAH BOSS!!" style. because the only thing we get out of that is the David vs Goliath problems with suicide bombers, mortars and rockets dropping all over the place. if they continued with that after a deal on the borders have been signed and executed, they wouldnt have much left of the international sympathy to get any positive media coverage.

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#9 narboza22

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Posted 23 March 2007 - 01:20 AM

then again, the last war that people really got any major land exchange out of was 67 years ago. if we were to invade urope again these days considering the stuff that modern warfare has to worry about we would be in so deep shit you wouldnt even know it. the world has grown a mass-media and mentality that war is bad. and if you have to, it should be done with surgical precision with minmal losses.


What's your point? Just because people do not fight a bunch of wars over territory anymore Israel should give back all their land?

to accept the existance of the state of Israel is probably hard for the palestinians because they do not want to lose the ability to argue over borderlines, which they might quickly do if they do say straight out "we accept Israel exists" because then Israel would say "we do exist, and we do exist within the borders we have right now, and since you agree that we exist, you have agreed on our borders". its not that they want to get everything back, the westbank is probably the most pressing one, and the Golan heights seems to be partially in discussion as it is, and half of Jerusalem. its basically what they had before the six day war, although Syria had like 100m extra of the golan heights right before that war which wouldnt be that important.


There are still border disputes all the time between countries, look at Africa. Seeing as how Palestine's actions up to now have not gotten their land back, they really have nothing to lose at this point by recognizing Israel.

if thats what it takes to get peace without gassing everyone not on their side of the wall, then it would seem to be the best way of doing it. i wonder what other options that would give them the opportunity to make the relationship better down there? they can probably keep doing what they are doing right now and hope that a century of no variation will make the palestinians more complying. but then again, dozens of muslims are dying today because of some nephew of some prophet started his own branch of Islam 1300 years ago.


How does Israel deciding to get up and move all their citizens help their situation? That would help Palestine sure, but Israel gets nothing out of that. What do the Shia/Sunni conflict have to do with it?

the only true way to get peace in the middle east right now is to cooperate, and not follow the "i'm the biggest so IM DAH BOSS!!" style. because the only thing we get out of that is the David vs Goliath problems with suicide bombers, mortars and rockets dropping all over the place. if they continued with that after a deal on the borders have been signed and executed, they wouldnt have much left of the international sympathy to get any positive media coverage.


Like said things would be hard for Palestine to do, this would be harder for Israel. They are kind of surrounded by unfriendly nations that have attacked them before. Their national security depends on being the tough kid on the block that people don't want to fight with.
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#10 duke_Qa

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Posted 23 March 2007 - 03:02 AM

What's your point? Just because people do not fight a bunch of wars over territory anymore Israel should give back all their land?




the point is that warfare these days is not as black and white as it used to be, especially with countries from the western world. before we wouldnt have been able to see the second plane hit the towers live on the other side of the globe.



There are still border disputes all the time between countries, look at Africa. Seeing as how Palestine's actions up to now have not gotten their land back, they really have nothing to lose at this point by recognizing Israel.




africa is a continent that we have had very little business with after the colonies went independent. Israel is a creation of the western world with the UN in charge, and we like to think that Israel is a beacon of democratic values in a part of the world where its not really common. so when they are hated by everyone, how can we expect things to get better?



How does Israel deciding to get up and move all their citizens help their situation? That would help Palestine sure, but Israel gets nothing out of that. What do the Shia/Sunni conflict have to do with it?




it has alot to do with culture. they have memories like elephants in the middle east, but before the crusades they were known as a intellectual people with interest in mathematics and trade. they don't like us because we've have been messing about in the holy land for a long time.



on the topic of Israelis moving people around. as far as i know(saw on the telly or something) there is not a majority of Israeli's living in the hot-zone settlements. they managed to get the ones in Gaza out, although i bet they went to another hot-zone pretty instantly. there was 100 000 citizens in the Golan heights before Israel took it over, now there are around 20 000 settlers there. its a pretty big number, but its not undoable. wouldnt you say that if they had to move so that there would be peace, wouldnt it be worth it because of all the lives saved from the conflict?



Like said things would be hard for Palestine to do, this would be harder for Israel. They are kind of surrounded by unfriendly nations that have attacked them before. Their national security depends on being the tough kid on the block that people don't want to fight with.




i think that the world is stable enough these days that the most hostile countries around Israel knows that attacking it would be suicide. with the US having half its army right in the neighbourhood, thats a double no-no. also, i believe that at least egypt has found western tourism quite economic, and its probably one of the more open countries towards the west. there is alot of talk with most of the countries around Israel these days to try to save the situation down there from escalating even more.



being a tough kid when there is very little chance of being attacked is not really going to help anyone. diplomacy until blood is drawn is probably the best way of putting it. theres no point in sitting in a corner waiving a gun at everyone else in the room. you can count on someone will try to take it from you sometime.

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#11 narboza22

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Posted 23 March 2007 - 03:34 AM

africa is a continent that we have had very little business with after the colonies went independent. Israel is a creation of the western world with the UN in charge, and we like to think that Israel is a beacon of democratic values in a part of the world where its not really common. so when they are hated by everyone, how can we expect things to get better?


My point was that Palestine would not lose their ability/right to argue about borders if they recognized Israel. On the contrary, more of the world would probably listen to them if they did.

it has alot to do with culture. they have memories like elephants in the middle east, but before the crusades they were known as a intellectual people with interest in mathematics and trade. they don't like us because we've have been messing about in the holy land for a long time.


From my purely agnostic point of view, that "Holy Land" was originally pagan land, then Jewish holy land, then Christian holy land, and then Muslim holy land. So, from my outside perspective, it really doesn't seem like Palestine has any more claim to Jerusalem and the surrounding area anymore than Israel does, or even the Catholic Church does, after all, wasn't Christ born and killed in the area that is now Israel? There is no reason for anyone to still be made about the Crusades. Sure they sucked, and the vast majority of the western world probably does not approve of them, and certainly not what happened during them, but that was a long ass time ago. Move on, the rest of the world does. Look at the US and UK, or France and Germany, used to hate each other, but they get along fine now.



on the topic of Israelis moving people around. as far as i know(saw on the telly or something) there is not a majority of Israeli's living in the hot-zone settlements. they managed to get the ones in Gaza out, although i bet they went to another hot-zone pretty instantly. there was 100 000 citizens in the Golan heights before Israel took it over, now there are around 20 000 settlers there. its a pretty big number, but its not undoable. wouldnt you say that if they had to move so that there would be peace, wouldnt it be worth it because of all the lives saved from the conflict?


In the US, the government has the power of imminent domain, where they can force you to sell your land at a reasonable price. People hate that, and that's when their land is just being turned into a shopping mall or grocery store. I highly doubt people would be any happier giving up their land to another country that has been suicide bombing their market places for the past however many years. So, while yes, I would say moving all of those people is physically possible for Israel, I do not think it is realistically possible to get all of those people to move.

i think that the world is stable enough these days that the most hostile countries around Israel knows that attacking it would be suicide. with the US having half its army right in the neighbourhood, thats a double no-no. also, i believe that at least egypt has found western tourism quite economic, and its probably one of the more open countries towards the west. there is alot of talk with most of the countries around Israel these days to try to save the situation down there from escalating even more.


Hezbollah apparently thought it was a good idea to start a war with Israel. And neither Syria nor Iran made any move to stop them even with the US military right next door in Iraq. In my opinion, that shows that Syria and Iran, at least, have no qualms about fighting with Israel, and the only reason there has not been another large scale war is because of Israeli aggressiveness.
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#12 Ash

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Posted 23 March 2007 - 11:26 AM

We've diverted from the fact that the Palestine government was elected. Are you saying that the public should be dismissed as idiots for electing whomever it was they feel to be in their own best interest? Because that's all people will vote for - whoever is in their own best interest.

I don't consider Bush to be in the best interest of the rest of the world. He was voted in. His tax reductions appeal to the masses purely because it means they get to keep more of their money for themselves. On that grounds, I'd probably vote for him as it makes my life better to do so.

Perhaps that's all the Palestinians are doing, such is their democratic right. What would happen if, say, a Communist Party (legitimately and democratically) got a majority in the United Kingdom? Would you suddenly invade us or threaten us with invasion because you believed said government to be illegitimate? Just because it doesn't conform to US ideals?

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Posted 23 March 2007 - 12:04 PM

We've diverted from the fact that the Palestine government was elected. Are you saying that the public should be dismissed as idiots for electing whomever it was they feel to be in their own best interest? Because that's all people will vote for - whoever is in their own best interest.

My parents vote leftwing even though that means more of their salary will go to the government. I don't vote purely out of my own interests either.

I think it's really too bad that after so many years the people in those countries are still fighting. It's kind of above my comprehension.

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Posted 23 March 2007 - 01:41 PM

That is, of course, your parents' prerogative. Generally, people do what they perceive will be in their best interest. For most people, that's a financial benefit. To be fair, though, from what I have gathered about your financial situation, your family don't need the money, per se :p

Although yeah, I agree with you. But that's how it is. IMO they should just get it over with.

#15 narboza22

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Posted 23 March 2007 - 02:19 PM

We've diverted from the fact that the Palestine government was elected. Are you saying that the public should be dismissed as idiots for electing whomever it was they feel to be in their own best interest? Because that's all people will vote for - whoever is in their own best interest.


I never said anything about the Palestinian government, but seeing as how they do not recognize Israel, I find it hard to believe that Israel's allies would realistically recognize the Palestinian government, especially when the party that is in control is a well know terror group.
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#16 Solinx

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Posted 23 March 2007 - 02:56 PM

It's above our apprehension because we have never been in such a situation as they are. We're safe and sound in our rich environment.

As for the Israel and Palastinian conflict, I know little about it, and won't make any comments about who I think is right or wrong.
Edit: Because I simply don't know.

I will only put up a few question:

Where is the difference between rebels and terrorists?
Does the Palestinian population see part of their government as a terror group?

Edit: Mixed up Palestinia and Israel... XD

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#17 narboza22

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Posted 23 March 2007 - 03:12 PM

Where is the difference between rebels and terrorists?
Does the Isreali population see part of their government as a terror group?


Its purely a point of view. I'm sure the American revolutionaries were considered to be the equivalent of terrorists at the time. I can't speak for the Israeli people, but from my point of view, it is the governments job to protect its people.
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#18 Athgar

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Posted 23 March 2007 - 06:31 PM

Looking at Israel and Palestina, lets see who the real villain is.

In 1948, the state of Israel is founded and hundreds of thousands of Palestinians are made homeless.

Then, in 1967, Israel invades and captures the West Bank and the Gaza strip, but in 1993 they sign the Oslo Agreement, and Israel agrees to remove its forces from the West Bank and Gaza.

In the beginning of 1996, there have been no suicide bombings for nearly half a year. Then, two weeks before the national election in Palestine, the leader of Hamas, Yahya Ayyash, is assasinated. His cellphone explodes while he is using it, and he dies before he gets to the hospital. Israel have since openly stated they were in charge of the assasination.

Thus, the terrorism cycle starts over. Everytime peace negotiations start, there will be a convenient "suicide" bomber, or terrorist attack, which will allow Israel to keep furthering her genocide on Palestina. Then after some months of figthing, most of the world(US excluded of course, no matter the atrocities commited, your government always turn the blind eye to it) will condemn Israel, and make them start the peace negotiations again. Along comes a "suicide" bomber...

And what is is up with the so called "suicide" bombers, of Palestina? What would you do if your country was occupied, and your people was oppressed? I bet you wouldnt start infighting, and bombing your own people. But apparently not in Palestina, instead of uniting against their common enemy, they start bombing their own people. With every Palestinian suicide bombing over the last 6 years, we have been forced to rely on the claims made by the Israeli state security forces, that the attack really was a suicide bombing. These claims are always made within minutes of the attacks, and before even released to the rest of the world the case has been closed.

And then theres the Israeli Seperation Wall... Do i even have to write about this one?
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It is a defence network, consisting of fences, and vehicle barriers to completely control movement in and out of the occupied area, to to the Israeli site. It is surrounded by an exclusion zone, or an up to 8 meter high wall. The barrier will have a length of about 700 kilometers, and is about 50% percent done right now. The entire project is against human rights, as the only thing it was ever made for was to severely restrict the lives of palestinians, and make it easier to dominate the population. The only thing i can compare Israels occupation of Palestina with, is the nazi-german genocide on jewish, gypsies and other "sub-humans". Imprisoning people, with the intent to "remove" them, although it is on a much smaller scale, it is essentially the same intent.

In the last 6 years 5500 Palestinian civillians have been killed, and over 7700 Palestinian homes have been demolished. And those are only the official Israelian numbers. And the American goverment have supported these actions. For the last 30 years, Israel has been the largest annual recipient of direct U.S economic and milliatary assistance.

In my eyes the state of Israel is scum, and i despise their leaders.

Edited by Athgar, 23 March 2007 - 06:32 PM.

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#19 narboza22

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Posted 23 March 2007 - 06:53 PM

In 1948, the state of Israel is founded and hundreds of thousands of Palestinians are made homeless.


This is true, and it was not fair to those people, but that was 59 years ago, the past is past.

Then, in 1967, Israel invades and captures the West Bank and the Gaza strip, but in 1993 they sign the Oslo Agreement, and Israel agrees to remove its forces from the West Bank and Gaza.


Haha, ya right, Israel went out and bloodthirstily took the West Bank. As many Palestinians as Israelis were opposed to the Oslo Accords. When Palestine does not even recognize Israel, how can you expect a treaty to last between them?

Thus, the terrorism cycle starts over. Everytime peace negotiations start, there will be a convenient "suicide" bomber, or terrorist attack, which will allow Israel to keep furthering her genocide on Palestina. Then after some months of figthing, most of the world(US excluded of course, no matter the atrocities commited, your government always turn the blind eye to it) will condemn Israel, and make them start the peace negotiations again. Along comes a "suicide" bomber...
And what is is up with the so called "suicide" bombers, of Palestina? What would you do if your country was occupied, and your people was oppressed? I bet you wouldnt start infighting, and bombing your own people. But apparently not in Palestina, instead of uniting against their common enemy, they start bombing their own people. With every Palestinian suicide bombing over the last 6 years, we have been forced to rely on the claims made by the Israeli state security forces, that the attack really was a suicide bombing. These claims are always made within minutes of the attacks, and before even released to the rest of the world the case has been closed.


I cannot tell if you are implying that Israel is responsible for all of the bombings themselves just so they can blame it on Palestine. If so, that is ridiculous.


And then theres the Israeli Seperation Wall... Do i even have to write about this one?
Posted Image

It is a defence network, consisting of fences, and vehicle barriers to completely control movement in and out of the occupied area, to to the Israeli site. It is surrounded by an exclusion zone, or an up to 8 meter high wall. The barrier will have a length of about 700 kilometers, and is about 50% percent done right now. The entire project is against human rights, as the only thing it was ever made for was to severely restrict the lives of palestinians, and make it easier to dominate the population. The only thing i can compare Israels occupation of Palestina with, is the nazi-german genocide on jewish, gypsies and other "sub-humans". Imprisoning people, with the intent to "remove" them, although it is on a much smaller scale, it is essentially the same intent.


Comparing Israel to Nazi Germany is the biggest stretch I have ever seen.



In my eyes the state of Israel is scum, and i despise their leaders.


You're entitled to your opinion, but I bet you would think differently if it was your government trying to protect you. Its easy to call Israel out when the rest of us live in relative safety and do not face the same potential dangers that Israel does.
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#20 Athgar

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Posted 23 March 2007 - 06:59 PM

What we are seeing in Israel is a genocide, financed by your government.
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