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norwegian authorities embrace palestine government


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#21 narboza22

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Posted 23 March 2007 - 07:28 PM

So basically you have nothing constructive to say and will resort to flaming Israel and the US.
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#22 Solinx

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Posted 23 March 2007 - 08:31 PM

Its purely a point of view

Exactly.

Live among the Palastinian people, and they would be rebels, live among the Israeli people and you would name them terrorists.

Both sides act according to what they see as the rightful thing to do.


In 1948, the state of Israel is founded and hundreds of thousands of Palestinians are made homeless.

This is true, and it was not fair to those people, but that was 59 years ago, the past is past.

59 years is short. We live longer than this and memory of such events can last for generations.

Thus I don't think "The past is past" applies here, as I recon people are still confronted with the effects today.

When Palestine does not even recognize Israel, how can you expect a treaty to last between them?

Then how did his treaty come to existance?

I cannot tell if you are implying that Israel is responsible for all of the bombings themselves just so they can blame it on Palestine. If so, that is ridiculous.

Is it? It would be a very effective tactic if done right. However I do not believe it so, as in these matters, 59 years is a long time. Unless there is proof for the claim, I won't believe it to be true.

Comparing Israel to Nazi Germany is the biggest stretch I have ever seen.

"Maybe you should go out more." - Forgot who said this :D

Seriously, I have heard of this before. Nazi's are quite easy to recall and create a nice shock when used in comparisons. :) The comparison is a false one however, as the Nazi's reasoning and actions are clearly not similar to those of the Isreali government.

This conflict is about land to live on, homes to live in, and sacred land to pray on. And I suspect also the burial grounds of their ancestors. The goal from either side is clearly not to exterminate a people.

The reason for the killing is that neither of the people move from the land that both parties claim as their own. There is only one murderer required to revive the conflict.

You're entitled to your opinion, but I bet you would think differently if it was your government trying to protect you. Its easy to call Israel out when the rest of us live in relative safety and do not face the same potential dangers that Israel does.

Agreed. With the addition that we are not in the Palestinian situation either.

What we are seeing in Israel is a genocide, financed by your government.

A weighty claim. I doubt Israel is killing Palastinians by the masses. Could you supply a source for your statement? Something to prove what we cannot witness ourselves.

So basically you have nothing constructive to say and will resort to flaming Israel and the US.

To be honest, you have been little constructive in your comment to his first post either.

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#23 Athgar

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Posted 23 March 2007 - 08:34 PM

Well, i could choose to say that you have nothing constructive to say, and just want to bash Palestina, but i dont.

But yeah, i've already said that i despise Israel, ans since America has been supporting them with money and weapons for the last 30 years i have something against them too. I find it sick, that despite the obvious crimes of the Israeli government, they are still widely supported.

EDIT: I have found some of the sources.

This is the article about suicide bombers. http://www.signs-of-... Suicide Bomber

http://www.ynetnews....3379890,00.html

This video contains footage of an Israeli border guard, beating up a palestinian.

http://www.signs-of-.....atah Clashes"

Yes this one is also from siqns-of-the-times, but it also provides alot of links to other newssites for sources, and basically follows up on all of them like the other one.

Edited by Athgar, 23 March 2007 - 08:56 PM.

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#24 narboza22

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Posted 23 March 2007 - 10:56 PM

Well, i could choose to say that you have nothing constructive to say, and just want to bash Palestina, but i dont.


First of all, let me clarify, as much as I defend Israel, I would fully support the creation of a Palestinian state. I think that they got the short straw when Israel was created, and I have always taken the Palestinian side during discussions in my classes or papers I have to write for school. But on the internet, Israel gets trashed, and in my opinion, does not get portrayed fairly, which is why I am defending them. To clarify further, I would support any effort Israel makes to defend its citizens, as that is what I believe is a government's job. While at the same time, I understand the hardships and frustration that Palestine must suffer, but I do not think they are going about fixing the situation the right way. While I do not for a second think that I have the answers for all the world's problems, there are a few things that I would do differently if I were Palestine. The first thing I would do is recognize Israel's right to exist. That would make it the West's turn to move, and would take the heat of Palestine. Then I would denounce terrorism and ask for a dialog with the US, UN, or whoever I would need to talk to that would be able to mediate my problems with Israel. Then, before talks started, I would get together with all the Palestinian leaders and decide on what our goals were, so that if we make a deal, it will not just be with 1 party, but instead all of Palestine. Then I would go talk with Israel, lay out what we think, and hear what they think. While I realize what can be said in a paragraph is never that easy in real life, I do not think that any of the problems in the Middle East are so serious that they can not be solved. The problems are only there because people are too stubborn to change. (ie. Most Americans would have no problem talking with Iran or Syria, but the government does or from what I have read, most Iranians have no problem with America, just their leaders do. I also doubt that most Israelis and Palestinians hate each other)


But yeah, i've ... them like the other one.


That is all speculation and conspiracy theory. You said your self that Israel relies on the massive amount of western aid that they get, so there is no chance that they would risk bombing their allies or themselves trying to frame an Arab organization. The Mossad may be ruthless, but they are not reckless or stupid.

59 years is short. We live longer than this and memory of such events can last for generations.

Thus I don't think "The past is past" applies here, as I recon people are still confronted with the effects today.


While yes, there are certainly people still alive that saw the creation of Israel and all of these problems, how many of those people are the ones giving up their lives to kill Zionists or cleanse the world of Hezbollah. Those are people my age that have no reason to hate each other besides what the older generation tells them. So while all of this started after a little after WW2, look at the countries that were in WW2. Germany and Japan are major members of today's society. If people could move on from that war, then I see no reason that Israel and Palestine cannot forgive and forget.

Then how did his treaty come to existance?


That's a good question that I cannot figure out. Why would Palestine sign treaties with a country that they do not recognize? I never thought of that.

To be honest, you have been little constructive in your comment to his first post either.


Sorry :D

Edited by narboza22, 23 March 2007 - 11:08 PM.

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#25 Hostile

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Posted 24 March 2007 - 03:09 AM

http://www.nmhschool..._third_arab.php

You all can mull over this for awhile about the 1967 6 day war. It's pretty straight forward. Read enough and you'll see it's not biased. It pretty much gives the dirt on both sides in a summary version (as much as can be one)

Agthar, claiming Israel is committing genocide is ridiculous. You want to see genocide, go google it. It's not what israel is doing.

And to everyone else around the place who is riding the slam US/Israel train, have fun, we know you're the people, who's only reasearch on the subject, are the ones that agree with the way you think.

Or you simply don't provide any resources. You make claims without even a link to prove it besides a video showing the brutality of just one side.

The list is long, from Bush being a war criminal, to israel committing genocide, to the US government committing 9/11 attacks. You know why you agree with this stuff.

Because simply you want to believe it. You post your biased links to youtube flicks, links to unfounded websites written by people who provide little, out of context, or none existant prove.

See if someone tells you a lie you want to believe, than it's really easy to repeat it as fact. I have my opinions, I form them from decent research, and provide resources as much as possible. And not the youtube propaganda flicks either.

What do all of these attacks have in common? They demonise Arabs as crazed killers. Whose general agenda does that serve? Israel's.

Of course, there remains the fact that someone claiming to be members of "Islamic Jihad" claimed responsibility for the bombing, heck, they even took to the streets with a picture of the bomber:


Just reading the article Agthar posted shows what I mean. It states all these islamics groups going by differant names claiming to be part of one group or another and who does the article blame? Israel for making it all up.

That's what I'm talking about. When a terrorist groups acts, they also are a machne of disinformation that make the North Koreans look like amatuers.

Yet who does this site blame for bombing it's own civilians in other countries? Israel. And then many people who want to believe this crap quote it as a valid reference.

And of course, the blood-thirsty Israeli defence Minister Amir Peretz wasted no time in sharpening his sword:

Israeli leaders said the bombing jeopardized a two-month truce in Gaza.

His defense minister, Amir Peretz, convened an emergency meeting of top security officials. "This is a grave incident, it's an escalation and we shall treat it as such," Peretz said.

and drooling at the prospect of raining more death on the beleaguered people of the Gaza strip:

"I've talked with the prime minister and we've decided to act immediately," Peretz said. "There are several assumptions, it is clear the perpetrator is probably a resident of the Gaza Strip. An assessment will be held in an hour."


Now does this sound like a valid and nonbiased source of info? But this is a source Agthar gave to support his claim. This is why I ask when "normal" people point out bad journalism like this, they are attacked in many places. This is pure crap.

We all have our opinions but please post sources more valid than http://signofthetimes.org

http://www.ynetnews....3379890,00.html
See this are bad israelis being bad, and in the first paragraphs of the article it states.

The head of the investigation team, Avi Peretz, said that the investigation would not take long as the evidence was solid and "one picture is worth a thousand words."
The Police Investigation Unit decided to launch the investigation immediately after watching the film. Peretz estimated that the investigation would last a week or two and its findings would then be handed over to the State Prosecutor's Office.

It appears this was filmed and justice will be done about it. It's not unlike when in New York City the police brutilize someone, than they get punished. As they should be. You failed to mention that part though.

Dude, we're not that stupid and uneducated here to buy into this bunch of shit you referenced. Please learn how to find sources with more credentials and then come back and talk with the adults.

#26 duke_Qa

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Posted 10 April 2007 - 02:04 PM

might aswell recycle this thread as its pretty much a part of the topic.


Israel doesnt want peace

The moment of truth has arrived, and it has to be said: Israel does not want peace. The arsenal of excuses has run out, and the chorus of Israeli rejection already rings hollow. Until recently, it was still possible to accept the Israeli refrain that "there is no partner" for peace and that "the time isn't right" to deal with our enemies. Today, the new reality before our eyes leaves no room for doubt and the tired refrain that "Israel supports peace" has been left shattered.


as the article says, when you have practically every arab nation around Israel trying to come together and find a solution to the situation in the area, and they turn it down. what possibly do they expect to happen in the future that will give them such an opportunity at peace again?

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#27 Solinx

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Posted 10 April 2007 - 08:40 PM

Haven't read the article, but I think a lot depends on the conditions the other parties approach Isreal with.

It's not that I take side with Isreal, peace should have been made long ago already, but I heard that Pakistan just demanded the release of 100 prisoners in return of 1 soldier they hold hostage. Not that much of a fair deal if you'd ask me...

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#28 Cheshire Fox

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Posted 17 April 2007 - 10:22 PM

First off, I'm sorry if I've misinterpreted any of what you've posted. Someone is playing very loud music in the next room and I'm having some trouble concentrating.

Israel doesnt want peace


Have you talked to many Israeli's recently? I have. Old Israeli men, young soldiers, teenagers, mothers, fathers. They would take some heavy issue with that statement. Oh, and every surrounding nation is not interested in finding a compromise. If you recall, the reason Israel got into that spat with Lebanon was due to a kidnapping. The problem is that though the official governments and people of the nation may want peace, the terrorist orginizations and fanatics that unfortunately seem to hold a great deal of power in these nations have different interests.

As for the original topic of this thread, I think Israel and the US's reaction to the electin of Hamas is aboslutely ridiculous. On the one hand, I despise Hamas. They kill civilians, often younger people. I know some Israeli kids around my age now living in the US who remember being terrified of Hamas, hating to go on buses for fear of suicide bombings. I believe they have attacked shopping malls multiple times. On the other hand, aren't we trying to encourage democracy in the middle east? Isn't our objective to try and get people to hold free, uncorrupted elections? And when they do hold one of these...we tell them they elected the wrong party.

And as for the Palistinians being kicked off their land, I believe they were told to get off the land by the Arab nations preparing to invade Israel immediately after it was formed, so they wouldn't be killed in the invasion. They were told they could come back after Israel was pushed into the sea. When this did not turn out as intended, the other Arab nations refused to let them in. I'll try and find a source for this when I've got a bit more time on my hands.

Also, try and understand why Israel was created. Learn a bit about the Holocaust. Sure, it's used as a bludgeon sometimes, but it was among the most horrific acts of barbarism in human history. I would recommend reading the book Escape From Sobibor. Avoid Devil's Arithmetic like the plague. Dreadful book. So, try and picture the Jewish people after this. For hundreds of years, they had been killed and opressed in every single nation in Europe. Nowhere was safe. There were always programmes. Things had been building up to the Holocaust for a long, long time. And after the Holocaust? Things didn't get any better. People still hated the Jews across the globe. A genocide of that proportion could easily happen again. There needed to be a safe place for the Jews. They managed to pick a remarkabely bad place to put it. But that's why Israel exists, and that's why it needed to exist. And that's why I support Israel as a nation.

Hopefully I didn't fuck up what I was trying to say too badly with that goddamn music blaring.

Edited by Darkskul, 17 April 2007 - 10:23 PM.

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#29 duke_Qa

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Posted 17 April 2007 - 11:30 PM

sounds like an acceptable reply in my ears. the middle east is a point of interest for the entire western world, anything that happens down there will ultimately affect how we live our lives. this is probably the main reason that there is so much conflict about what type of politics one want to follow.

there are so many things that we can blame for the situation down there, holocaust, angry muslims blowing themselves up, artillery-fire into the gaza-strip, building walls across land that doesnt belong to the guys making the wall, neighbouring countries attacking. there are way to many variables to account for. the best way to look at it is to brutally cut down on the variables into as few as possible.

in my opinion there are two variables that are important here, military power and popularity. Israel got the military power to protect itself if it has to, but it has been proven that you cannot protect yourself from terrorism by using large amounts of military force. if you try to do that you will create new terrorist through the innocent blood spilled.

popularity means basically how hated you are. if you make a point out of doing bad things, you will get suicide bombers and bad diplomacy connections with your neigbouring countries.
also, popularity is important when it comes to your allies. what will happen if Israel doesnt try to make nice the next 20 years and suddenly the situation is so that the US, Europe and generally the entire western world doesnt find Israel worth supporting anymore? it would indeed be a slaughter if the neigbouring countries still have a big grudge on Israel, which they probably would have if even the western world finds it's business too dirty for its taste.


my criticism of Israel is not based on pure malice for the Israeli people. its based on a opinion that if Israel doesnt start trying to make friends, one might end up friendless and thrown into the docks with concrete shoes. nobody wants to see another holocaust, but if people are not able to compromise and talk peace for over 50-80 years, something is bound to happen.

and why is it so that Israel should be the ones to try to make peace? they are the ones with the power, they got the worlds 4th biggest military. this military has done alot through the ages in the area, and it would be common sense to show that one can also reach out with the iron fist.



As for the original topic of this thread, I think Israel and the US's reaction to the electin of Hamas is aboslutely ridiculous. On the one hand, I despise Hamas. They kill civilians, often younger people. I know some Israeli kids around my age now living in the US who remember being terrified of Hamas, hating to go on buses for fear of suicide bombings. I believe they have attacked shopping malls multiple times. On the other hand, aren't we trying to encourage democracy in the middle east? Isn't our objective to try and get people to hold free, uncorrupted elections? And when they do hold one of these...we tell them they elected the wrong party.


we agree that the hypocricy of trying to stop someone elected democratically is totally unacceptable then. it makes you wonder how much democracy really means to us.

on the topic of hamas;
the arab culture of political movements having their own military is something that we in the western world is not used to. we don't have to fight our local political opponents with guns and explosives to get anywhere. as they gain political power, they can start organizing into a more passive political organization, although even PLO has "security-forces" and they got cash when they were in charge.
in my opinion if a group of people promise to lay down their arms and start doing politics, one should encourage them to do so instead of stop giving them funds and force them into doing stuff that they originally wouldnt have to do. if the western world has said "hrmph, hamas, ok your choice, but we will be watching them" instead of "oh noes they have done terrorist activities 2 years ago! they will turn all palestinians into suicide bombers with the cash!!1oneone, get them out of hiere, we want puppets not militias", it would have been much more likely that Hamas had started on the morphosis into a proper political party and not a guerilla organization.




And as for the Palistinians being kicked off their land, I believe they were told to get off the land by the Arab nations preparing to invade Israel immediately after it was formed, so they wouldn't be killed in the invasion. They were told they could come back after Israel was pushed into the sea. When this did not turn out as intended, the other Arab nations refused to let them in. I'll try and find a source for this when I've got a bit more time on my hands.


it couldnt have been the other way around aswell? that the Israelis suggested/forced them to flee because they might be looked upon as "foreign military forces invading" because of their skin color? war generally makes people try to get away from conflict zones, if it was because they were scared of being wiped off the map by the Israelis or the invading parties doesnt really matter. they would have gotten shot one way or another if they got in the way.

jews have been hunted for ages, just as gypsies and alot of other minor religious and cultural groups and people with "deviancies" compared to others. there are a few millions Romas(gypsies) around the world aswell, and they also got killed by hitler. but they havent gotten into the same mess as Israel has. the past is not pretty, but we live in a great age where alot of great has happened for humanity. why shouldnt we try our best to make that happen in Israel and in the neighbouring areas aswell?


i prolly should have written more but i have to go to bed soon or i'll be useless tomorrow.

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