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school shootings in the states again


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#41 Casen

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Posted 09 May 2007 - 01:18 AM

But, there needs to be very very very strict licensing for them, and some other things I need to think of...

We can't just give out guns to anyone. Theres something flawed with that system in the US, obviously.

But of course, thats not the root of the problem. Our society is somewhat violent and tense and stressed out in comparison to European countries in general.

I'll bet that if in the Netherlands they suddenly legalized all types of firearms, the crime rate probably wouldn't go up. Why? Much more peaceful culture than we have here in the US. We have to get to the root of the problem in American culture.

#42 Cheshire Fox

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Posted 09 May 2007 - 01:44 AM

But, there needs to be very very very strict licensing for them


There is in many places. Virginia has the single weakest gun laws in the entire US.

We can't just give out guns to anyone.


We don't up here.
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#43 Kazyumi

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Posted 15 May 2007 - 03:24 PM

Guns should be outlawed. If there were no guns there would be nothing to protect oursleves against and no need to have guns in the first place.

Knives, baseball bats, fists, a group of people, all serve quite well as weapons.


I would be more than happy if everyone carried around knives and baseball bats instead of guns. You cam't kill 33 people in a matter of minutes with a knive or a baseball bat.

Then again if those peoples had guns too then they could've stopped him.

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#44 Athgar

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Posted 15 May 2007 - 06:06 PM

So, everyone should just bring a gun to school and all other places? How fucked up is that? That's just gonna kill even more people.
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#45 Kazyumi

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Posted 15 May 2007 - 11:06 PM

I'd double think pulling a gun on someone knowing he might just pull out one too. You have more power when you have a gun and he doesn't. You can make him do anything. If he has a gun too, he can walk away, unless your some suicidal nutjob ofcourse. Then I hope he'd pull the trigger first. =/

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#46 DemonWolf

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Posted 16 May 2007 - 12:31 AM

Guns should be outlawed. If there were no guns there would be nothing to protect oursleves against and no need to have guns in the first place.

About a week ago somebody posted a thret that he was going to repeat columbineat our school on aprl 20th, but apparently he is now in a mental institution. Still, about 85% of my school aren't going to show up on friday (this percentage likely raised about 50 points after the vrginia shootigs), but Im still going to school.

We can't be ruled by fear, that's exactly what these sick people want.

I personally think it is ridiculous that guns are legal at all, even though it's in the constitution. Do any of the American's here think they should be outlawed, even if it is extremely unlikely?


You make the mistake of assuming deranged whack-jobs care about acquring things legally. Sheesh.
All banning things does is take things out of the hands of law-abiding citizens while ensuring that criminals know nobody but police might be able to shoot back. :)
We can't be totally reliant on government security forces, ya know?

I'm against most bannings in general, as one thing leads to anther, etc., you get the idea.
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#47 Cheshire Fox

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Posted 16 May 2007 - 11:56 PM

You make the mistake of assuming deranged whack-jobs care about acquring things legally. Sheesh.


Yeah, but just having guns readily available makes it that much easier for them to carry out there deranged whack - job schemes.
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#48 Sûlherokhh

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Posted 30 June 2007 - 07:23 AM

The gun laws have another side effect that may not be immediately apparent or effective. If guns are stopped being paraded around, being carried in cars or kept at homes to be shown/presented to selected guests, in short, if guns were simply less present in everyday life (disregarding TV for the moment), THEN the appeal of acquiring a gun would slowly decline. I live in a country with strict gun laws (germany). Growing up in this country, i was not once confronted with a real gun. Even though there was (and still is) a certain 'coolness'-factor about guns, there simply is no drive (for me at least) to go out and get one, even for protecting myself. I would a) get into more trouble than without, partly because killing an assailant with an illegally acquired weapon tends to be punished as well and b) i would certainly not have a gun for NOT using it. An assailant may think so too, assume this is now about life and death, and decide to killl me instead of simply robbing me.

So, this is about two things, basically:
1. To let people grow up without getting accustomed to having firearms around.
2. To squash the illusion that guns make you safer, when all they do is end situations of fear, uncertainty and the general feeling of helplessness by provoking the untimely death of one or both parties, which doesn't really help at all preventing these situations and their resulting emotional trauma.


Addendum:
For me personally there is something else to consider. With guns around, the resistance needed to be overcome to actually go out and kill someone is much lower. My point of reference is the following. I live in germany, but i have friends and family in the states, as my father was born and raised there. I feel the difference. It is not unusual to NOT be exactly sure about other peoples intentions, motives and their personality. But everyone has a breaking point. With my american friends and their friends, i am much more careful not to go to far with anything, which is quite different for my german buddies. Just because of the potentially more devastating results. I have a sense of fear that is much stronger in the US than in Germany. Here is an example:

My father was almost killed with a shotgun at a party because he was being nice to a girl who the house owner thought was his (to protect, to keep, to defend against whatever). The point being, hitting on someone's insecurities (often unknowingly) can trigger a violent and often not very thought through response.

If that is a beating, so be it. But once the option of killing someone easily is at hand, it is a different matter altogether. So guns are about power and NOT feeling helpless. On the other hand they spread fear. If you know that provoking somebody may get you killed faily quickly, you tend to get paranoid and fearful, you stop or reduce the potential for angering someone by just being yourself, you start to keep things inside. That it turn makes for an explosive potential. With guns around, that is exactly what i pointed out earlier. Only NOW the gun is in your own hand.

Edited by Sûlherokhh, 30 June 2007 - 07:45 AM.

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#49 duke_Qa

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Posted 30 June 2007 - 04:34 PM

a very nice reply on gun control. really hits the nail on the head there.

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#50 GorGorgood

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Posted 08 July 2007 - 04:41 PM

Growing-up around and being taught weapons safety, as in they are not toys, it is not a macho thing to have a gun, having a gun does not make you a man, guns are for hunting and if necessary self defense, is OK. You now have proper understanding about what a gun is and what it is to be used and not used for.

Problem is much more than guns being available. Guns are available in nearly every nation, legally or illegally. People use them to commit cries in every nation. People also use knives, clubs, fists, vehicles, whatever to commit crimes.

There will always be psychos and 'normal' people that flip-out or commit a crime of passion. common criminals etc.

If you completely outlaw guns, then common criminals will have them and the normal citizens will be without an adequate means of defense. It woul be impossible to have a Police Force large enough to have a Police officer stationed on every block.

Provide decent jobs for people and living conditions will improve and the crime rates will plummet, people will be happier, etc. However, there will still be psychos, common criminals, religous and political fanatics, and 'normal' people flipping out.

The pace of life is too fast it seem in industrialized countries, putting excessive pressure on the average citizen, and thus producing more problems of emotional and psychological natures.

Chris

#51 Sûlherokhh

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Posted 08 July 2007 - 05:46 PM

Problem is much more than guns being available. Guns are available in nearly every nation, legally or illegally. People use them to commit cries in every nation. People also use knives, clubs, fists, vehicles, whatever to commit crimes.

Guns have the most deadly immediate effects, the biggest emotional impact and the least level of resistance to overcome when it comes to using them. True, if you want to kill someone badly enough, there are other means. But guns carry the biggest seduction factor to date. Besides, if you have a gun, even for self defense, you WILL probably use it or threaten with it, even if your intention is NOT to kill. Chances are you are going to kill with it anyway.
Removing half the guns on the streets (even if only the civilian half), will reduce encounters with deadly results immediately, instead of raising the number. Of course, people would be a bit more likely to get robbed. But i'd rather stay alive than be seduced by pride or fear to try to kill someone who only wanted to take my money.

If you completely outlaw guns, then common criminals will have them and the normal citizens will be without an adequate means of defense. It woul be impossible to have a Police Force large enough to have a Police officer stationed on every block.

Wrong. Bobbies don't bear firearms. They still have a good handle on things, and they are NOT to be found on every street corner in London.

Provide decent jobs for people and living conditions will improve and the crime rates will plummet, people will be happier, etc. However, there will still be psychos, common criminals, religous and political fanatics, and 'normal' people flipping out.
The pace of life is too fast it seem in industrialized countries, putting excessive pressure on the average citizen, and thus producing more problems of emotional and psychological natures.

That is true everywhere, even in countries with serious gun control. So it is no valid argument against it.

There is another reason why Gun Control will reduce murder rates and even crimes with firearms in general. First of all, if ordinary citizens did NOT have them for self defense, they would have a higher chance of survival if faced with an assailant armed to the teeth. The assailant would not be as afraid of you and less likely moved to use his own gun on you.

Second, in a country with strong Gun Control, criminals would know that the chances to face a citizen with a gun would be quite low and so the likelyhood of not bringing any rises. They would know that there are other means of intimidation.

Third, acquiring guns illegally, even if not so hard as one might think, is still a dangerous business, undertaken only if absolutely necessary. If you know that citizens out there have a hard time getting any, the likelyhood that a criminal would try to acquire some of his own is also lower than in comparable countries without strong Gun Control. But more to the point. Gun Control would make it pretty hard to acquire a gun LEGALLY. And legally acquired guns are also commonly used for crimes, even if it is stupid (i.e. easily traceable).

One thing Gun Control will not result in is: an immediate decrease in crime/murder rates. It will take time to sink in the psyches of criminals that the situation has changed. Inertia is hard to overcome, it could even get worse at the beginning unless at the outset there will be a strong moral and personal support for civilians by the law enforcement. But things WILL settle down to a reduced level of fear, paranoia and violence.

Of course all of this does not include culture specific influences of the local county. If there is an open war fought on the streets, the reasons for this conflict have to be addressed seperately but alongside the Gun Control question.

*Hoping you will not just ignore my arguments but rather try to shatter their foundations*, Sûlherokhh

Edited by Sûlherokhh, 08 July 2007 - 05:50 PM.

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#52 GorGorgood

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Posted 08 July 2007 - 09:38 PM

Problem is much more than guns being available. Guns are available in nearly every nation, legally or illegally. People use them to commit cries in every nation. People also use knives, clubs, fists, vehicles, whatever to commit crimes.

Guns have the most deadly immediate effects, the biggest emotional impact and the least level of resistance to overcome when it comes to using them. True, if you want to kill someone badly enough, there are other means. But guns carry the biggest seduction factor to date. Besides, if you have a gun, even for self defense, you WILL probably use it or threaten with it, even if your intention is NOT to kill. Chances are you are going to kill with it anyway.
Removing half the guns on the streets (even if only the civilian half), will reduce encounters with deadly results immediately, instead of raising the number. Of course, people would be a bit more likely to get robbed. But i'd rather stay alive than be seduced by pride or fear to try to kill someone who only wanted to take my money.

If you completely outlaw guns, then common criminals will have them and the normal citizens will be without an adequate means of defense. It woul be impossible to have a Police Force large enough to have a Police officer stationed on every block.

Wrong. Bobbies don't bear firearms. They still have a good handle on things, and they are NOT to be found on every street corner in London.

Provide decent jobs for people and living conditions will improve and the crime rates will plummet, people will be happier, etc. However, there will still be psychos, common criminals, religous and political fanatics, and 'normal' people flipping out.
The pace of life is too fast it seem in industrialized countries, putting excessive pressure on the average citizen, and thus producing more problems of emotional and psychological natures.

That is true everywhere, even in countries with serious gun control. So it is no valid argument against it.

There is another reason why Gun Control will reduce murder rates and even crimes with firearms in general. First of all, if ordinary citizens did NOT have them for self defense, they would have a higher chance of survival if faced with an assailant armed to the teeth. The assailant would not be as afraid of you and less likely moved to use his own gun on you.

Second, in a country with strong Gun Control, criminals would know that the chances to face a citizen with a gun would be quite low and so the likelyhood of not bringing any rises. They would know that there are other means of intimidation.

Third, acquiring guns illegally, even if not so hard as one might think, is still a dangerous business, undertaken only if absolutely necessary. If you know that citizens out there have a hard time getting any, the likelyhood that a criminal would try to acquire some of his own is also lower than in comparable countries without strong Gun Control. But more to the point. Gun Control would make it pretty hard to acquire a gun LEGALLY. And legally acquired guns are also commonly used for crimes, even if it is stupid (i.e. easily traceable).

One thing Gun Control will not result in is: an immediate decrease in crime/murder rates. It will take time to sink in the psyches of criminals that the situation has changed. Inertia is hard to overcome, it could even get worse at the beginning unless at the outset there will be a strong moral and personal support for civilians by the law enforcement. But things WILL settle down to a reduced level of fear, paranoia and violence.

Of course all of this does not include culture specific influences of the local county. If there is an open war fought on the streets, the reasons for this conflict have to be addressed seperately but alongside the Gun Control question.

*Hoping you will not just ignore my arguments but rather try to shatter their foundations*, Sûlherokhh


Aquiring a firearm illegally can be both easy and not risky to just the opposite, it simply depends on the people involved and the overall situation. In many places firearms can be purchased illegally without anyquestions asked and with little risk at all.

Also, people are more the problem than the weapons themselves. A weapon by itself without an external catalyst cannot hurt anythig or anyone, unless it is a malfunctioning exlosive and/or nuclear devise.

Gun control is necessary, and in some areas should be more controlled, but the overwhelming problem is the human race.

In these instances of school shootings etc. both in the USA and elsewhere in our world, it has been shown that the kids that flipped-out and did the shootings were being ostacized, ridiculed, and harrassed by 'normal' students. So, reactions occur in such situations. Perhaps our so-called 'normal' individuals will stop acting like animals and jerks. Our so-called people also discriminate against people with injuries, etc., they discriminate against the disabled etc. So, problem in the main is the human race itself and all the idiots that are part of the human race.

In some States here, such as Wyoming and Montana etc., where people are raised with firearms and treat a firearm as a tool to be used against rattlesnakes, occasionsl marrauding bears and pumas, and cattle rustlers, the rate of firearm related homicides is low, and so is the overall crime rate. I guess some people realize somethings and can handle somethings that other people cannot.

There isn't any cut and dry answer, but gun control is needed, and humans need to look at themselves and consider their actios more closely and develop tolerance and respect of others more so than exists today.

Chris

PS: Hope you had a great weekend, the Detroit Tigers just swept the Bosox, so it was very nice here including the weather. :)

#53 GorGorgood

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Posted 08 July 2007 - 10:08 PM

BTW, many Bobbies in Britain now do carry guns due to the high crime rate associatted with in the main recent immigratants.

Really was sad to hear of that old WWII British veteran that was beaten to death in his old neighborhood by thugs from Thugeeland or thereabouts.

Britain has a very considerable and somewhat high crime now, and has so for some time, same with Germany and Russia na dthe Ukraine and the Middle East etc., this is not simply a USA phenomenom.

Ciao, Chris

Edited by GorGorgood, 08 July 2007 - 10:08 PM.


#54 GorGorgood

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Posted 09 July 2007 - 07:16 PM

The gun laws have another side effect that may not be immediately apparent or effective. If guns are stopped being paraded around, being carried in cars or kept at homes to be shown/presented to selected guests, in short, if guns were simply less present in everyday life (disregarding TV for the moment), THEN the appeal of acquiring a gun would slowly decline. I live in a country with strict gun laws (germany). Growing up in this country, i was not once confronted with a real gun. Even though there was (and still is) a certain 'coolness'-factor about guns, there simply is no drive (for me at least) to go out and get one, even for protecting myself. I would a) get into more trouble than without, partly because killing an assailant with an illegally acquired weapon tends to be punished as well and b) i would certainly not have a gun for NOT using it. An assailant may think so too, assume this is now about life and death, and decide to killl me instead of simply robbing me.

So, this is about two things, basically:
1. To let people grow up without getting accustomed to having firearms around.
2. To squash the illusion that guns make you safer, when all they do is end situations of fear, uncertainty and the general feeling of helplessness by provoking the untimely death of one or both parties, which doesn't really help at all preventing these situations and their resulting emotional trauma.


Addendum:
For me personally there is something else to consider. With guns around, the resistance needed to be overcome to actually go out and kill someone is much lower. My point of reference is the following. I live in germany, but i have friends and family in the states, as my father was born and raised there. I feel the difference. It is not unusual to NOT be exactly sure about other peoples intentions, motives and their personality. But everyone has a breaking point. With my american friends and their friends, i am much more careful not to go to far with anything, which is quite different for my german buddies. Just because of the potentially more devastating results. I have a sense of fear that is much stronger in the US than in Germany. Here is an example:

My father was almost killed with a shotgun at a party because he was being nice to a girl who the house owner thought was his (to protect, to keep, to defend against whatever). The point being, hitting on someone's insecurities (often unknowingly) can trigger a violent and often not very thought through response.

If that is a beating, so be it. But once the option of killing someone easily is at hand, it is a different matter altogether. So guns are about power and NOT feeling helpless. On the other hand they spread fear. If you know that provoking somebody may get you killed faily quickly, you tend to get paranoid and fearful, you stop or reduce the potential for angering someone by just being yourself, you start to keep things inside. That it turn makes for an explosive potential. With guns around, that is exactly what i pointed out earlier. Only NOW the gun is in your own hand.


When I was stationed in Germany back around 1970-73 I ran into some German thugs and thieves etc. Frankfurt an(m) Rhine was known as the Chicago Of Europe/Germany in reference to Chicago of the Roaring 20's and the 1930's due to the high criminal activity there.

While in the neighborhood of Bancroft, Ontario, Canada with theWSU Geology Dept., I had a run in with some very large, stupid, Canadian rednecks, some uranium etc. miners and lumberjacks, that were angred at me because I was being friendly with the Tavern Maid (Bar Maid, Hostess) and she was being friendly with me and gave me her telephone number. Luckily, since they had firearms in their vehicles, I did not go outside the tavern with the morons since I was warned by a Canadian Indian I was with of their intent to do me great bodily harm and most probably shoot me. Toronto, Montreal, etc. also have great crime problems today.

Marsielles and Paris can be very rough. Russia and Ukrania also have rampant crime and violence. Cairo and Istanbul etc. have major crime problems, so does Saigon/Ho Chi Minh City and both Chinas.

It is dangerous in many parts of the world.

Chris

#55 lycan

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Posted 19 October 2007 - 08:29 PM

the other day a 14 year old boy in the states went on a killing spree

some yanks these days scare the s**t out of me also gun crime in london is shocking

#56 Tom

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Posted 24 October 2007 - 12:08 PM

some yanks these days scare the s**t out

Stange statement. "Some yanks." Its like they all are mentally deranged.

People forget the US has a larger population that most states in europe. More people = more likely of mental health issues. Its still only less than a 0.01% of the population that commits the shootings. I find it funny when people in the UK/EU feel everyone in the US are crazy raving psychos with guns.

Peoples argument in the EU for the US to disarm is ridiculous also. To disarm a population means all the law abiding citizens hand in their weapons, but the criminals still retain their weapons, thus evidently causing more gun crime because innocent citizens can't protect themselves.

#57 Sûlherokhh

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Posted 24 October 2007 - 05:20 PM

...
Peoples argument in the EU for the US to disarm is ridiculous also. To disarm a population means all the law abiding citizens hand in their weapons, but the criminals still retain their weapons, thus evidently causing more gun crime because innocent citizens can't protect themselves.


Not necessarily true. I know, you all heard the standard arguments. Here is a new one:
Gun Control effectively criminializes gun possession. Meaning that if you see someone on the streets with a gun (especially if you are a cop) then in all probability you have a criminal on your hands. What i am saying is that it would make the job of law enforcement a lot easier if law abiding citizens simply didn't have any, right?

Another one:
Sure, once Gun Control was in place, crime rate involving guns would rise, for a while. The majority of the criminials will be pretty careless (but probably also NOT shooting) and catching many of them shouldn't be too hard. The smart crimininals would move on to NOT packing because
a)why carry something high profile to your 'job' if you don't need it, and
b)your 'customers' can be impressed differently, now you don't need to fear his guns.

Result (after a while): Less crime involving murders.

Edited by Sûlherokhh, 24 October 2007 - 05:20 PM.

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#58 narboza22

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Posted 24 October 2007 - 05:50 PM

Not only would banning guns take away a Constitutional right, but it wouldn't help the problem at all. Look at Israel. They are almost encouraged to carry firearms there and the gun crime is way lower there than in most places. Certain types of guns are already illegal, and yet people still manage to get a hold of them. How would taking away non criminal's weapons help stop the criminals who are going to be able to get weapons whether they are illegal or not?
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#59 Sûlherokhh

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Posted 24 October 2007 - 06:13 PM

It will help, but only in the long term. The 'Valley of Tears' phenomenon. It will get worse before it gets better. That's why it's so unpopular. Especially in the U.S. because of the fundamental 'right to bear arms'. Mark the origins of this right. U.S. citizens have the right to bear arms so they can use it 'against their government' if they feel it starts to oppress them, which was the reason why the U.S. exist in the first place. So basically the constitution cements a basic attitude of mistrust. As long as this mistrust is fostered it doesn't matter if people have guns or not. But not letting people have guns provides the opportunity to foster 'trust', in the long term that is.

Of course just banning guns alone will not help. There is a lot of things wrong in the U.S., and fixing other issues at the same time is very important.

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#60 narboza22

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Posted 24 October 2007 - 06:31 PM

The Right to Bear Arms stems from people's basic right to have a means to defend themselves, not some insidious distrust of all authority. It also comes from the fact that people hunted for food at the time the Constitution was made, and people still hunt today
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