56 replies to this topic

[Comrade Kal]

Every intelligent person will of course have realised that the iraq war is a load of shit but for those in denial I am just going to disprove any argument that can possibly be made for the iraq war in a sentence.

2 billion people on this planet do not have clean drinking water, and that water could have been supplied to them for about one-fifth of the cost of the Iraq war.


Now then!

So does that not make it utterly indefensible from all conceivable sides?

Supporters of the iraq war, please show your faces!

[chemical ali]

...

You know nothing of the problems of the worlds water problems, the widely held left wing view is that throwing money at people solves the situation. When you have the matter that most of those 2 billion people can't rule themselves because they are are too busy arguing over which tribe controls the two cows or the little bit of scrub land.

I would also like to see some facts for your supported claim.

[Comrade Kal]

Brian Eno said it.





I would like to see you doubt Brian Eno.



But seriously though, nobody is against fresh water. And that particular problem can be solved with money because it is simply a case of installing the relevant technology with the assistance of the local authorities, whoever they are. It doesn't matter because they wouldn't oppose it.

[Ash]

I'd like to see support for Ali's claim that "those 2 billion people can't rule themselves because they are are too busy arguing over which tribe controls the two cows or the little bit of scrub land."

Perhaps if they actually HAD the water, they'd be more than able to support themselves rather than HAVING to fight for that scrubland, because it would have water and would be fresh and fertile.

Wars over cans of dog food needn't happen.

Pumping water to those who need it is every bit as easy, if not easier, than pumping crude to those who want it.


Arguing against Kal on this one is basically saying 'I want those 2 billion people to go on dying of thirst and starvation because they can't get water or grow their own food. I would much rather kill a few thousand "rag-heads" for my fascist/imperialist/religious bigotry/corporate indulgence.'

[Comrade Kal]

And once again guys, Brian Eno said it.

[chemical ali]

Brian Eno, yes a credible source on economic management and strategical studies. A fucking musician does not know shit about the worlds problems. If the British Empire was still around these people wouldn't be starving or dying of first because we cared for people and kept them peaceful.

Inequality is natural sadly, you can't make everyone happy its a utopian idea.

[Comrade Kal]

Brian Eno, yes a credible source on economic management and strategical studies. A fucking musician does not know shit about the worlds problems.

yet some clearly delusional stroppy teenager does, apparently

If the British Empire was still around these people wouldn't be starving or dying of first because we cared for people and kept them peaceful.

after we'd invaded and massacred them, o' course

Inequality is natural sadly, you can't make everyone happy its a utopian idea.

well no, not with people like you around

you wouldn't be happy if there was world peace and equality tomorrow though ali, that's the thing

[Copaman]

Choosing Remaining out of this Flamethrower fest ... Fight ... issue

dying of first

Sorry, but this is just too irresistable (not to mention easy) - the best way to keep people from dying of first is to give them SECONDS

Edited by Copaman, 16 April 2007 - 04:54 PM.

[narboza22]

Every intelligent person will of course have realised that the iraq war is a load of shit but for those in denial I am just going to disprove any argument that can possibly be made for the iraq war in a sentence.

2 billion people on this planet do not have clean drinking water, and that water could have been supplied to them for about one-fifth of the cost of the Iraq war.


Now then!

So does that not make it utterly indefensible from all conceivable sides?

Supporters of the iraq war, please show your faces!

WTF are you talking about? Water has absolutely nothing to do with the war in Iraq. You could also use the money being spent on the war to fund a Mars program, or buy every American a new car or something, but why would you do that? If you knew anything about where the money is coming from, then you would know that the majority of it does not come out of the US budget, but rather a special fund that congress approves. So, basically, that money would not even be here if it was not for the War, it would still be in the US economy. So why don't all of you liberal hippies go back to your holes until November 2008 when you'll get your chance to be in charge.

[Ash]

Since this topic was unjustly closed, I figure I might as well explain Kal's words for him.

He wasn't saying that water shortage has anything to do with the Iraq war. What he was saying was that the Iraq war was a serious misallocation of taxpayer's money. For a fifth of the cost of killing innocent "rag-heads" and conquering nations, it would have been possible to all but wipe out world thirst.

Regardless of where the money is coming from, it could have been significantly better spent on helping people live and not on killing them. Even if it had been kept in the US pocket it would have been better spent than on the Iraq war.

Why not make a US social congress fund to wipe out world thirst? Praps remove third-world debt? I can think of loads of things the USA could do to help the developing world. Hell, I can think of loads of things the USA could do to help other nations battle climate change. But they won't do it. They say it'll cost too much. But it's OK to spend (waste?) five times the amount required to wipe out world thirst on a senseless war and the subsequent anarchy that ensued.

[CodeCat]

And that, my friends, is why I bash the US government, capitalism and the 'what do we gain from it' mentality of the people. I think anyone who votes right-wing and advocates helping people is a hypocrit. Because history has shown that once again, those who are able are not willing, and those who are willing are not able.

I honestly expect that as long as the mentality of people doesn't change, Africa and the middle east will have died off by 2200. And what are we going to say then? 'Damn, now they can't sell us their oil'?

[Tom]

I'm going to quote from the closed topic:

WTF are you talking about? Water has absolutely nothing to do with the war in Iraq. You could also use the money being spent on the war to fund a Mars program, or buy every American a new car or something, but why would you do that? If you knew anything about where the money is coming from, then you would know that the majority of it does not come out of the US budget, but rather a special fund that congress approves. So, basically, that money would not even be here if it was not for the War, it would still be in the US economy.

If you knew where the money really came from you wouldn't be paying income tax or paying any tax to fund the war. Why don't you research the federal reserve and see how war puts your country into more national debt from international bankers that aren't even american. You call yourself a "US supporter" yet you are blindly supporting the destruction of your own country from within by supporting a corporate war and takeover. The more money congress gives out, or ever borrows from the federal reserve, the poorer your nation becomes. The money that is being spent on the war is not really credit, its debt, same as the money in circulation within the US. Its debt, it isn't credit, it is merely your slavery to international bankers and corporations.

Even if it was real money, why do you support the destruction of people for corporate greed and domination? You still support the Iraq war now we know it was a lie and it was manipulated for corporations to make more profits and to destroy your constitution. Ridiculous.

I also think this quote is one of the best quotes about war and its consequences ever:

"Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft fom those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed. The world in arms is not spending money alone. It is spending the sweat of laborers, the genius of its scientists, the hopes of its children.... This is not a way of life at all, in any true sense. Under the cloud of threatening war, it is humanity hanging fom an iron cross." - Dwight D. Eisenhower

So why don't all of you liberal hippies go back to your holes until November 2008 when you'll get your chance to be in charge.

In 2008 when hilary becomes president you will see no difference in your countries policy because every elite son of a bitch that becomes a president is nothing more than a front wo/man for the corporate takeover of your country. The members of the republicans and democrats are no different because they are all controlled by corporate funding and all their elite members are members of secret societies whos roles are to pretend democracy in your country exists. And whilst you are looking at them and their bullshit speeches, they stab you in your backs and turn your country into a surveillence corporate police state and take away every single one of your rights. Why? To secure the elite into totalarian power because their time in power is running out. People are waking up to their lies, human consciousness is shifting to a more educated and peaceful view on the world and they fear that it will conflict with their desire to make profit.

So, if you really knew the cost of this war you wouldn't be supporting it like an ignorant moron.

As for third world debt, it could be wiped out with the money we fund on war. I don't see why everyone is targetting America. America is not the front man in any of this, its Europe and the British. Whilst the illusion is that the capitol of capitalism is the one initating this, its always been based from European Elite Dynasties. Corporations aren't really defined by nation either, they are international. This is why globalisation is occuring. Nationstates will no longer exist in the west if nothing is done about the corporate hijacking of most western governments and the european union.

Edited by Hybrid, 17 April 2007 - 01:02 PM.

[Comrade Kal]

Perhaps the saddest thing was the 'you liberal hippies will get your chance to rule in 2008'


oh dear lord i have given up with that sort of person

[chemical ali]

I see before me a communist, Ash sounds like a socialist, Toms a nihilist and kals a anarchist, so some of the three least coherent ideologies!

Inequality is natural, its a utopian idea for everyone to be equal. If you want to bash capitalism you might as well go live under a rock in the tundra as its the most successful economic system, unlike say that of Keynesian mixed system of a collectivist economy. The best way I think is to bring back the Empire and imperialism, taking over these countries so we can help them with the ideas of government, democratic control, civil service so one day they can become independent.

[Paladin58]

Ali, you do realize that imperialism was only a front for finding new markets to sell your wares, and to get more raw material to produce those wares, right? (I just wanted to throw that out there, backing out of this topic now)

[chemical ali]

Ali, you do realize that imperialism was only a front for finding new markets to sell your wares, and to get more raw material to produce those wares, right? (I just wanted to throw that out there, backing out of this topic now)

Yes and the same can be done again, this time our wares the superior services of government and business onto these less economically developed nations. It is our duty to help them, imperial rule would be short lived and popular because of the benefits that it will bring.

[Ash]

You also realise that that's basically enforcing everything you believe to be right on everyone else.

You are basically condoning the continuing poverty of 2 BILLION people, saying we should conquer them and force upon them our own beliefs.

If you truly believe even one word of what you say, Ali, you're a fucking moron. I'll leave it to Kal Tom or someone else to explain why, however it doesn't take even a gibbering retard to explain why. I mean...jesus fucking christ, man, how moronic can you BE?!

[Tom]

I see before me a communist, Ash sounds like a socialist, Toms a nihilist and kals a anarchist, so some of the three least coherent ideologies!

Ali please stop being so retarded. Do you even know what a nihilist is? Quite obviously not. Nihilists don't believe in anything, including consequences, I clearly do. There is nothing more than making stereotypes. Anything with an "ist" or "ism" on the end defines a system of belief. I clearly don't believe in a set system of forced control other than a society based around the community and personal freedom, not around profit and greed.

The quote above does not have any place in this argument as its based on personal stereotypical views and not the bigger picture.

Inequality is natural, its a utopian idea for everyone to be equal.

Inequality and equality do not exist in human terms. Inequality is a dystopian ideal, again its an illusion. The only equality that exists is everyones personal freedom. It can be changed easily if the people became conscious of their power, especially the working class. Class consciousness is the largest problem in a capitalist society. The elite and upper classes (stereotypically) are the most conscious in sense of class consciousness.

Your idea of inequality is based from an animalistic nature no more intelligent than a monkey. Theres more to the picture. If you do not understand societies hierarchy and how it imprisions every human being born within it, even the elite, you can never gain your own personal freedom, let alone the freedom of an entire race of beings. Humanity can never be free whilst its oppresing itself and its ability to progress. Capitalism is not progression. The capitalist system is designed entirely to stop progression of humanity as a single race and only the progression of its rulers (the elite). Thats why you tend to have two ruling parties in a "democracy." Everytime the "opposing" party gets elected it undo's any changes the previous party made. Politics is therefore a scam that distracts the population whilst the corporations rise up around them and consume the entire society.

If you cannot understand how politics conspires to destroy everything that is good within our communities by making us nothing more than subserviant slaves to the elites, then you are ignorant. Do some research on elite culture and maybe study history and how it repeats itself before shooting around ridiculious stereotypes of people who actually see the picture more clearly than most.

There is no such thing as the left right divide ali. Politics is 100% bullshit. Left and right are just two different ways of running the same system. A left party gets "elected" all it changes are economics, that generally make the population more lazy, a right party then gets "elected" and undo that "progress." Then a few years later, maybe a decade or so a left part will get elected and undo any "progress" the right party made, the cycle repeats itself, no progression is made. They also only change the economics to help make the elites richer from a lazy ignorant population. The Left right divide are parrellels that work together. This can be seen from history. Difference is today people are starting to become conscious of this because of the repitition of history. As history repeats itself people learn and evolve. Evolution is the only natural thing that exists in our societies Ali, not "inequality." "Inequality" is merely a phase in humanity's evolution.

If you look over history ali and research elite culture you will see not much has changed from the 1800s and the industrial revolution. They still used the same manipulation and tools to retain their power then. The problem now is that people are beginning to turn against the system because they are realising what damage it is doing to the world, so the elitists families and dynasties are working together to try consolidate power to stop any revolution. Revolution is a natural phase in humanitys evolution as a race. We have had many throughout time including the British civil war, the french revolution, the american revolution, the industrial revolution, the bolshevik revolution, etc... I would even consider the atom bomb a huge phase in our evolution as it entirely shifted the balance of world power dramatically.

Point being the only natural thing happening here is people are starting to wake up ali. You can't really stereotype such things as they are not correct stereotypes. The only stereotypes you came out with are the ones that have been put into your opinion by media and "education."

If you want to bash capitalism you might as well go live under a rock in the tundra as its the most successful economic system, unlike say that of Keynesian mixed system of a collectivist economy.

This is why capitalism is hated (below). At the moment society is structured like this:



Basically it appears like so:
Money, Power, Self serving beliefs (Occult and Satanic rituals) > Elite > Created religions (christianity, islam, etc) > Army > Upper Class > Middle Class > Working Class

A newer system that works like this would be better for the modern day:

(as in what comes first like, america did when it was born) Induvidual beliefs/freedom > Community > State/Reigion > Country > World.

Power should be worked up based from a community level. This would stop any possibility of the centralisation and manipulation of power from induviduals for self serving purposes.

Because the structure of society never changes. Capitalism is a lie of the elite who rule it. It is made to steal peoples wealth, resources and consume everyone and everything into a self serving society. All the wealth and power goes to the top, all the people at the top impose their visions on the rest. People are beginning to realise greedy and other self serving aspects is not how we will survive as a race, we will merely die off if we keep on this trend. These ideals and corrupt tendancies will only lead to the self destruction of our race and the destruction of our planet. In order to survive as a race we need to evolve and develop a fairer system of economics and live with our planet rather than abusing our planet. It is small minded induviduals who support the system blindly that are hindering the progression of this. They need to realise that the duality of "us verse them" has to come to an end so we can move on. If humanity really wants to explore space and move onto the future we need to move away from anything that hinders us, especially the greed of our so called "wise leaders."

The best way I think is to bring back the Empire and imperialism, taking over these countries so we can help them with the ideas of government, democratic control, civil service so one day they can become independent.

Ali we are living in the 21st century. When we figure out how to make "time machines" we will send you to 1800 to help rule the British empire no problem.

Edited by Hybrid, 17 April 2007 - 05:45 PM.

[Bart]

"Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft fom those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed. The world in arms is not spending money alone. It is spending the sweat of laborers, the genius of its scientists, the hopes of its children.... This is not a way of life at all, in any true sense. Under the cloud of threatening war, it is humanity hanging fom an iron cross." - Dwight D. Eisenhower

there's a loophole, however: you cannot afford to be unarmed while you have enemies. being armed and threatening gives you enemies

agreed with Hybrid

[CodeCat]

*applauds to Hybrid for a very well-made post*