Jump to content


Photo

For the thick (especially Ali)


  • Please log in to reply
56 replies to this topic

#21 Blodo

Blodo

    The one who disagrees

  • Project Team
  • 3,002 posts
  • Location:Eastern Europe
  • Projects:siteMeister, Mental Omega
  •  The wise guy

Posted 17 April 2007 - 06:00 PM

I see before me a communist, Ash sounds like a socialist, Toms a nihilist and kals a anarchist, so some of the three least coherent ideologies!

You forgot me, so now it's my turn to dismantle your post. Oh and before I properly start, a quick note: Nihilists are people who don't believe in anything. Just a quick reminder.

If you want to bash capitalism you might as well go live under a rock in the tundra as its the most successful economic system, unlike say that of Keynesian mixed system of a collectivist economy.

Not at all. America is on it's way to an economic breakdown and they are as close to that bullshit anarcho-capitalism thing as they can be. The only thing that is saving them is this war. It's why nobody really wants it to end, thanks to the oil being pumped in and weapons being pumped out the economy isn't falling on it's ass. Proof? For the entirety of the 20th century America was in a constant state of war with somebody with the longest period of their peace AFAIK being 5 years. If they weren't busy invading Vietnam (and getting their asses kicked by a bunch of communist guerillas, so instead they just bombed the whole country so well that even crops don't grow there anymore), they sure as hell were getting worked up invading every other island around the Northern American continent.

The best way I think is to bring back the Empire and imperialism, taking over these countries so we can help them with the ideas of government, democratic control, civil service so one day they can become independent.

Yes, lets just conquer the savages. We are the master race, and they are incapable of running their own anyways. You see they probably wouldn't fight each other anyways, but thing is America, Britain, France, China etc. see weapons as a really great export. Now that may not necessarily be a primary cause of a war, but it sure as hell fuels a prolonged conflict. Thanks to the so-called world superpowers, all these people never run out of equipment to kill each other, turning Africa into a literal warzone. Now go ahead and tell me capitalists aren't just out for profit.

Edited by Blodo, 17 April 2007 - 06:02 PM.

ARGUMENT FROM CREATION, a.k.a. ARGUMENT FROM PERSONAL INCREDULITY (I)
(1) If evolution is false, then creationism is true, and therefore God exists.
(2) Evolution can't be true, since I lack the mental capacity to understand it; moreover, to accept its truth would cause me to be uncomfortable.
(3) Therefore, God exists.


#22 Tom

Tom

    title available

  • Undead
  • 8,475 posts
  • Location:UK
  • Projects:Life
  •  Co-Founder of Revora

Posted 17 April 2007 - 06:15 PM

Yes, but fighting enemies only creates more. You cannot have peace by making war. You can only have peace by making peace.

I'm not suggesting unarming, i'm suggesting not making war with other people for nothing. The only real war that exists today is the war that is on for your mind.

Edited by Hybrid, 17 April 2007 - 06:24 PM.


#23 chemical ali

chemical ali

    Pie! Be nice I'm staff and I can ban0rz j00!

  • Members
  • 4,739 posts
  • Location:United Kingdom
  • Projects:building an empire of doom
  •  chief mischief maker

Posted 17 April 2007 - 08:09 PM

In true style I'm shown a piece of Marxist propaganda that shows the evil bourgeois at their finest dining of the product of the proletariat! Your comments on capitalism stopping human evolution are preposterous, Industrial Revolution anyone?

You keep mentioning these 'elites'? Who might the elites be in your model you describe the middle classes, the armed forces, religion and ultimately sovereigns. Taking another look a history describing the politics of the Soviet Union where twenty men ruled the country, had private cars, planes, trains, drivers. While they dined on caviare and vodka people queued for bread and this is in a collectivist economy. Your assault on capitalism is bizarre when yes as Blodo mentions about the current state of the US economy there are natural cycles of economic recession. I've never seen a bread line though in a recession for the last fifty years and under laissez faire capitalism we have the longest sustained economic development.

From the way Tom's going on about community minded government perhaps he has changed from the stoner nihilist politics of before and transferred to anarcho-communism along with our esteemed Comrade Kaliski and Comrade Askie and Comrade Kopockle of the Glorious Polish Soviet Republic. Anarchism is even worse:

“Anarchy is the sure consequence of tyranny; or no power that is not limited by laws can ever be protected by them”



With anarchy the end result is biker gangs roaming the country looking for food and women to rape, its a sad by realistic vision just like in Mad Max. Humans are corruptible and evil beings, laws are needed to stop them going up some granny in the street and stealing her purse. This leads onto the point of the need to rebuild the Empire, in the Middle East there is no real form of democracy apart from Israel. In Africa its not better and the Far East is just the same, South America has been plagued for years by either mad right wing or crazy left wing governments. The need for rule by a dominant power is there, we must go now and take them under our nurture otherwise that's when humanity goes to the dog and we all roam around in biker gangs on the scorched earth. With the Empire you would achieve peace, through the management of the UN the powers to be would control and with the regulation of the free market all problems would be peacefully sorted. This is my vision of the world, capitalism and the free market will solve the need for food, solve the need for water and end conflict with the combination of liberal imperialism which will end the need for a series of collective nation states into a united world.
Posted Image

Quotes
“Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.”

"In a man-to-man fight, the winner is he who has one more round in his magazine." -Erwin Rommel

Economic Left/Right: 10.00
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -0.56

#24 Mathijs

Mathijs

    Post-modern Shaman

  • Network Leaders
  • 13,687 posts
  • Projects:Age of the Ring
  • Division:Revora
  • Job:Leader

Posted 17 April 2007 - 08:16 PM

In true style I'm shown a piece of Marxist propaganda that shows the evil bourgeois at their finest dining of the product of the proletariat! Your comments on capitalism stopping human evolution are preposterous, Industrial Revolution anyone?



And yet you yourself are one of the finest examples of propagandised youth. You're brainwashed.

No fuel left for the pilgrims


#25 Tom

Tom

    title available

  • Undead
  • 8,475 posts
  • Location:UK
  • Projects:Life
  •  Co-Founder of Revora

Posted 17 April 2007 - 09:12 PM

First point to pull apart another retarded argument:

under laissez faire capitalism we have the longest sustained economic development.

So first your supporting an anarchist form of capitalism on its highest level

and then:

With anarchy the end result is biker gangs roaming the country looking for food and women to rape, its a sad by realistic vision just like in Mad Max

You make up some dream world full of monkeys on motorbikes living whilst complaining about anarchy.

ROFL laisser-faire was an anarchist form of capitalism you retard. Jesus christ, what an argument ali. I destroyed it with 2 lines.

So much for marxist propaganda. I don't even believe in marx. If marx's theory comes truth then so be it, if it doesn't then it doesn't. Marx is just another ideology. Just like capitalism. None of it works because you cannot define mankind's living under a few set of rules. Every community, every region wants/should have different laws and different beliefs due to there own political and economic gains/beliefs. Ever region has different circumstances, you cannot define every induvidual under a centralised government and "real ID" which is a huge threat becoming reality.

Industrial Revolution anyone?

All a natural part of human evolution and development. The elite of that time were still just as corrupt and self serving as they are today.

You keep mentioning these 'elites'? Who might the elites be in your model you describe the middle classes, the armed forces, religion and ultimately sovereigns.

There would be no elites. There would be the community. No elites to manipulate societies, governments, no elites to rule, sacrifice the many for a few. No elites to commit mass murder by brainwashing societies into believing there is an enemy. There would just be the people and the peoples will. Everyone is educated, everyone understands their rights. The governments serve the people not the elites. Thats not a "utopia" because there is no such thing as a utopia as everything is always evolving and always changing. Humanity needs to stop being so scared of change.

Something I've learnt personally from my experience basically as a "drug addict" in the sense of abusing cannabis and alcohol. You end up "standing still" whilst going through these experiences. When you finally stop and come back to reality you realise the world has changed. Moral of that story is, if you stand still expecting no change the world will progress naturally and pass you by. The consequences of ignoring your problems will hit you so hard you won't be prepared to deal with them. Same happens in a society to people ignoring societies problems.

If you think ali that there is no consequences to your ignorance then you better wake up to what you've been ignoring. Each day this country is more and more developing into a surveillence police state, basically Big Brother, as in most western countries. If you deny that then one day your going to wake up with an RFID chip in your arm and no clue how the fuck it happened other than the fact you were told to get one for "security reasons."

Taking another look a history describing the politics of the Soviet Union where twenty men ruled the country, had private cars, planes, trains, drivers. While they dined on caviare and vodka people queued for bread and this is in a collectivist economy.

It was another society for the elite moron. No different than the soon to be totalitarian states developing around us now. Funny that the so called "left right divided" merges when the elite of a society need to secure their power. This happens in every empire. Happened in Rome, Nazi, Soviet and even the capitalist empire. Politics and media are merely tools for aquiring more power.

Your assault on capitalism is bizarre when yes as Blodo mentions about the current state of the US economy there are natural cycles of economic recession. I've never seen a bread line though in a recession for the last fifty years and under laissez faire capitalism we have the longest sustained economic development.

Research the banking system ali and also understand how war gets wastes excess and stops the collapse of the capitalist economy whilst also funnily enough making the capitalist elite even richer. War is nothing more than a scam of dominating for empires, making the top of societies richer and the bottom poorer.

With anarchy the end result is biker gangs roaming the country looking for food and women to rape, its a sad by realistic vision just like in Mad Max. Humans are corruptible and evil beings, laws are needed to stop them going up some granny in the street and stealing her purse.

Evolution ali. People are starting to care more. As intelligence rises so does change. I don't know why you believe in the planet of the apes, its not real.

This leads onto the point of the need to rebuild the Empire, in the Middle East there is no real form of democracy apart from Israel.

ROFL jesus... just jesus... Different culture you fascist prick. Ali why have you not joined the BNP yet? And even then what gives you the right to rule another culture?

I wouldn't exactly say Israel has a democracy either. Its nothing more than a fascist pound in the middle east that and it has committed more crimes than most other "democracys."

In Africa its not better

Thanks to our corporate friends and bankers.

The need for rule by a dominant power is there, we must go now and take them under our nurture otherwise that's when humanity goes to the dog and we all roam around in biker gangs on the scorched earth. With the Empire you would achieve peace, through the management of the UN the powers to be would control and with the regulation of the free market all problems would be peacefully sorted. This is my vision of the world, capitalism and the free market will solve the need for food, solve the need for water and end conflict with the combination of liberal imperialism which will end the need for a series of collective nation states into a united world.

Its a very scary vision, but it won't happen ali, even if it could, because corporations are too dominant and most people are more intelligent than that. ROFL and "liberal imperialism"!!!! Thats a contradiction. Ali you crack me up man.

I repeat: this is the 21st century, not the 1800s. I reckon you'd be better off there. Like i said, when CERN has developed such technology we will gladly send you there to help manage the british empire. And plus you'll have 200 years foresight! Who knows, if we send you back early you could even stop the American revolution!! :p

Edited by Hybrid, 17 April 2007 - 09:20 PM.


#26 Hostile

Hostile

    Benefitting Humanity Simply by Showing Up!

  • Veterans
  • 9,551 posts
  • Location:Washington DC
  •  T3A Founder
  • Division:Revora
  • Job:Global Administrator
  • Donated
  • Association

Posted 21 April 2007 - 03:28 AM

Honetly I think you're all being pesimistic, @blodo, the US economy isn't gona flop. @Ali No Mad MAx ararchist biker gangs are not gonna be riding around the countryside.

There will still be no country lead by a corporation anytime in the forseeable future. But being will still be exploited. IMO

Those who are exploited are not victims of any MACRO economic system. It's not capitalism, communisim, or even theocracies that keep the poor where they are. It's having a government that exploits it's own people, and has no provision in it's "rule of law" to have the population do anything about it.

If all the great heads here understand what I mean, than it should be a no brainer on EACH head showing a logical way to avoid exploitation.

I happen to choose to speak for capitalism, teach everyone in the schools how it works and how to maximise your skills at it. Learn how businesses run in great detail from the youngsters on up. Teach them how the laws work and how not to be exploited.

Taught just like math, science, and your language.

If someone from another macro ecomonic system can come up with a solution to keep thier form of method from expoiting it's own people, than you should post it.

In the end it will make each of our philosophies better and more complete. We can all find flaws in each others systems, why not try to find the solutions to those flaws. Maybe there is more than one successful way to run a macro economic system.

Law of Governing Dynamics... There is a path to take where all sides choose descisions that benefits all those involved without denying any one side success.

@Tom Your clarfity of thougths proves you're back in the game. I agree with most of everything you said. And the delivery of your message was full of etiquette. You're a good example of a good post.

#27 killakanz

killakanz

    Infamy!

  • Hosted
  • 1,368 posts
  • Projects:Infamy!
  •  They've all got it infamy!

Posted 21 April 2007 - 04:09 AM

But seriously though, nobody is against fresh water. And that particular problem can be solved with money because it is simply a case of installing the relevant technology with the assistance of the local authorities, whoever they are. It doesn't matter because they wouldn't oppose it.


Has it ever ocurred to you that most of these third world 'authorities' either don't give a shit or would refuse the help because that would spoil their whole opression of the people thing.
Throwing money at world thirst will NOT solve the problem, otherwise it would have been done a long time ago.


Who the hell is Brian Eno?
Posted Image
New Tutorial Online Now!! Check it out!!

#28 Cheshire Fox

Cheshire Fox

    El Hombre Sinestro

  • Hosted
  • 755 posts
  • Location:Western Mass!
  • Projects:Keeping Apocalypse and Wrath alive
  •  Apocalypse Admin, Wrath of Orion Admin

Posted 21 April 2007 - 07:01 PM

We can all find flaws in each others systems, why not try to find the solutions to those flaws.


Nobody will ever agree on anything, and even if they did it would hardly work. That's what history seems to have taught us, no matter how many great ideas we come up with the greedy and corrupt will ruin it. Because they hold the power and they always will. They want it the most. They don't have to worry about anyone slowing them down like the people trying to change the world do. With any luck, that meteorite Apophis will strike in 2029 and put an end to this madness.

Capitalism makes the rich get richer and the poor poorer. Communism has a nasty habit of leading to fascism. Fascism is fascism, no more needs to be said. By the time we find a solution to our problems, it will be much too late and we'll have to find a new one. That is mankinds fate.
Posted Image
This is the place where all the junkies go, where time gets fast but everything gets slow.
I'll get to the moon if I have to crawl.
The problem with any government is that it eventually attracts politicians.

#29 CodeCat

CodeCat

    Half fox, half cat, and all insanity!

  • Members
  • 3,768 posts
  •  Fighting for equality of all species

Posted 21 April 2007 - 07:12 PM

No, fascism is extreme right authoritarianism. I dunno if there's a specific term for communist authoritarianism, but I guess authoritarian is the proper term anyway. A real fascist would probably love to kill a communist on sight.
CodeCat

Posted Image
Posted Image

#30 Hostile

Hostile

    Benefitting Humanity Simply by Showing Up!

  • Veterans
  • 9,551 posts
  • Location:Washington DC
  •  T3A Founder
  • Division:Revora
  • Job:Global Administrator
  • Donated
  • Association

Posted 21 April 2007 - 11:41 PM

Codecat, knowing the system you support can be exploited, what measures can be put in place to protect people against "authoritarianism"?

I thought for capitalism is to set limits to asset ownership. At some point a company has to split to conform to "my views" of what should be laws, to insure companies don't get too big.

What are your thoughts on how to protect the system you support?

I'm not playing, this is a serious question. How can communism protect it's people against exploitation?

I ask this because people can be exploited under each system. My idealogy is flawed and exploitable, so is yours. Do you have any suggestions how to protect people under communism from exploitation?

#31 Comrade Kal

Comrade Kal

    Blur are better than Oasis

  • Members
  • 2,491 posts
  • Location:A small town in an archipelago in northwest Europe
  • Projects:The revolution
  •  Terrorist

Posted 22 April 2007 - 12:09 AM

Anything that involves a form of government can and will be exploited.
Posted Image

"To be governed is tragic, to govern is pathetic."

#32 Mastermind

Mastermind

    Server Technician

  • Undead
  • 7,014 posts
  • Location:Cambridge, MA
  • Projects:MasterNews 3
  •  The Man Behind the Curtain

Posted 22 April 2007 - 12:49 AM

Anything that involves a form of government can and will be exploited.

Anything that involves people can and will be exploited.
Posted Image

Well, when it comes to writing an expository essay about counter-insurgent tactics, I'm of the old school. First you tell them how you're going to kill them. Then you kill them. Then you tell them how you just killed them.

Too cute! | Server Status: If you can read this, it's up |

#33 Cossack

Cossack

    title available

  • Project Team
  • 1,081 posts

Posted 22 April 2007 - 02:01 AM

In true theoretical communism, the people themselves are supposed to govern themselves and protect themselves from exploitation. But as someone else already said, communism usually leads to a authoritarian central government, rather than a largely decentralised government which is what communism is supposed to be.

#34 Cheshire Fox

Cheshire Fox

    El Hombre Sinestro

  • Hosted
  • 755 posts
  • Location:Western Mass!
  • Projects:Keeping Apocalypse and Wrath alive
  •  Apocalypse Admin, Wrath of Orion Admin

Posted 22 April 2007 - 04:38 AM

This is partially because every person who has used communism to get themselves into power has actually been a fascist at heart. And if they aren't at the start, they will be. What do people with power want? More power.

Look at the US's current president. A man with power wanting more, turning a country that was once a beacon of freedom and opportunity into a fascist regime. Yes, you have to admit the US once was a beacon of opportunity.

Edited by Darkskul, 22 April 2007 - 04:40 AM.

Posted Image
This is the place where all the junkies go, where time gets fast but everything gets slow.
I'll get to the moon if I have to crawl.
The problem with any government is that it eventually attracts politicians.

#35 narboza22

narboza22

    Q6600 :)

  • Hosted
  • 357 posts
  • Location:United States
  • Projects:Tactical Warfare
  •  US supporter to the end

Posted 22 April 2007 - 04:51 AM

This is partially because every person who has used communism to get themselves into power has actually been a fascist at heart. And if they aren't at the start, they will be. What do people with power want? More power.

Look at the US's current president. A man with power wanting more, turning a country that was once a beacon of freedom and opportunity into a fascist regime. Yes, you have to admit the US once was a beacon of opportunity.



A) Neither the United States nor George Bush is fascist

B) Go find the poorest peasant and have him set up a communist/socialist/Marxist regime, and I guarantee you that the result will be the same as the Soviet Union. While Marx had a great idea on paper, it just cannot work in real life because people will always be people, and inherently be greedy and selfish.
Posted Image

#36 Ash

Ash

    Foxtrot Oscar.

  • Undead
  • 15,526 posts
  • Location:England
  • Projects:Robot Storm
  •  Keep calm and carry on.

Posted 22 April 2007 - 08:45 AM

Right. Quiz time.

What is the single event that has immediately preceded the setting up of a so-called "Communist" regime in every instance where one has been set up?

Edited by Paradox, 22 April 2007 - 08:46 AM.


#37 Hostile

Hostile

    Benefitting Humanity Simply by Showing Up!

  • Veterans
  • 9,551 posts
  • Location:Washington DC
  •  T3A Founder
  • Division:Revora
  • Job:Global Administrator
  • Donated
  • Association

Posted 22 April 2007 - 04:29 PM

The existance of a US backed dictator?

#38 Cheshire Fox

Cheshire Fox

    El Hombre Sinestro

  • Hosted
  • 755 posts
  • Location:Western Mass!
  • Projects:Keeping Apocalypse and Wrath alive
  •  Apocalypse Admin, Wrath of Orion Admin

Posted 22 April 2007 - 05:30 PM

Neither the United States nor George Bush is fascist.


Two words: Patriot Act.

Maybe not yet, but he's working as hard as he can.
Posted Image
This is the place where all the junkies go, where time gets fast but everything gets slow.
I'll get to the moon if I have to crawl.
The problem with any government is that it eventually attracts politicians.

#39 chemical ali

chemical ali

    Pie! Be nice I'm staff and I can ban0rz j00!

  • Members
  • 4,739 posts
  • Location:United Kingdom
  • Projects:building an empire of doom
  •  chief mischief maker

Posted 22 April 2007 - 06:39 PM

No, fascism is extreme right authoritarianism. I dunno if there's a specific term for communist authoritarianism, but I guess authoritarian is the proper term anyway. A real fascist would probably love to kill a communist on sight.


Fascism is not extreme right, its more of the extreme left as fascists adopt a 'Third Way' between capitalism and socialism. The left right scale is used purely for economic terms.
Posted Image

Quotes
“Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.”

"In a man-to-man fight, the winner is he who has one more round in his magazine." -Erwin Rommel

Economic Left/Right: 10.00
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -0.56

#40 Cheshire Fox

Cheshire Fox

    El Hombre Sinestro

  • Hosted
  • 755 posts
  • Location:Western Mass!
  • Projects:Keeping Apocalypse and Wrath alive
  •  Apocalypse Admin, Wrath of Orion Admin

Posted 22 April 2007 - 06:56 PM

How ironic. While reading this discussion the song Higher Ground is playing.

Powers
Keep on lyin',
While your people
Keep on dyin'
World,
Keep on turnin',
Cause it wont be too long.


And as for the relevant discussion, I don't think fascism can be classified as left or right. Stalin was every bit as much as a fascist as Hitler, Pol Pot as much as Hussein.
Posted Image
This is the place where all the junkies go, where time gets fast but everything gets slow.
I'll get to the moon if I have to crawl.
The problem with any government is that it eventually attracts politicians.




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users