35 replies to this topic

[thudo]

Up for the testers! Go grab and test please!!!!!!

Changes
- Ability fix for reloads
- Changed Heroes advanced and insane mode to start normal but gain a level each 30 minutes
- Small armies need a base buster (commander or vehicle) to attack
- Fixed a capturing bug with decapture-only units
- Armies shouldn't retreat too fast now
- Increased jump attackers 'free action' time to 15 seconds
- Necron - Accelerated Power Gen construction near gamestart
- Necron - Increased Power prereq for Attack Scarab creation to 1200pwr
- IG - Command Squad now comes out much quicker near game start (except for 4th buildprogram which no initial CS is built)
- Eldar - Kept FireDragons Squadlimit @ 1-2 random since they still work
- Eldar - Increased Harlequin rating from 5 to 6 so they are seen more often
- Orks - Added Larkin's Ork build strats (Thanks Larkin!!)
- Orks - Wartruk, Wartrakk, and KillKan now come out more balanced

[ThetaOrion]

Necron - Accelerated Power Gen construction near gamestart

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Beauty!

I always thought that the AI Mod 2.2 Necrons should be more agressive about their Power Generators, including making sure that they build all the Thermo Generators they can in their base and even building a third Thermo Generator in an AI ally's base if possible. Thermo Generators at their earliest convenience!

The 1.1 Necrons seemed to benefit a lot from power and especially from Thermo Generators, and I suppose it's still the same in Relic's 1.2?

Everything else about the Necrons just seemed to take care of itself, even into the second hour of gameplay, as long as they had enough power.

[LarkinVB]

E vs Ork :

1. Attached FS still toggling FoF on/off.
2. Big Mek attaching to tankbustas, spoiling their infiltration.
3. Orks did not spam free sluggas though it had two barracks and two HQs, more than enough free build channels and pop.

Edited by LarkinVB, 22 April 2007 - 08:45 AM.

[LarkinVB]

I still get updated WXPMod_DCMod_log.txt in my DOW folder. Not sure but I thought this was from Corsix dll which shouldn't be used any more ?

[ArkhanTheBlack]

You should delete Corsix dll! It's not needed anymore.

[LarkinVB]

You see me confused. Why ist it called at all when I play 2.3b5 ? What files should I delete ?

[ArkhanTheBlack]

WXPMod_DCMod.dll and/or WXPMod_DCMod3.dll, further any aaaaa*.module file if existant.

[ThetaOrion]

WXPMod_DCMod.dll and/or WXPMod_DCMod3.dll, further any aaaaa*.module file if existant.

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Thud should probably redesign his installer to actually go out there and delete these files wherever they are still found, especially if they keep cropping up, and I suppose the other DC mod makers should be instructed how to do this as well, as it was Thud and Corsix who taught them how to use the Mod Manager Fix and got us all converted over to it.

What a mess, since Relic didn't do it right in the first place.

I suppose those files that should be deleted will be cropping up for the remainder of Dark Crusade's life, here and there and everywhere.

Thud and the other guys might want to look into an uninstaller like a virus checker that goes through and gets rid of them all? I don't know.

I don't think we have heard the last of this subject, though.

I do think the AI Mod installer goes through and gets rid of the old version of the AI Mod if it's there? That would probably take care of things for the AI Skirmish Mod, if that is the case. I don't know, though, as I have always uninstalled the old version before installing the new version, and I never know how good any uninstaller really is, as they tend to leave things behind. Got to make sure that it's not leaving anything behind or fully purging the old stuff before installing the new stuff.

Thud would know better than the rest of us, I suppose. Just needs to remember to look into it. And, I don't think getting the AI Skirmish Mod good and pure is going to successfully purify the rest of the 1.1 DC mods that are out there, although, as usual, I could be wrong.

I don't think we have heard the last of this subject.

[Inquisitor]

Up for the testers! Go grab and test please!!!!!!

Changes
- Ability fix for reloads
- Changed Heroes advanced and insane mode to start normal but gain a level each 30 minutes
- Small armies need a base buster (commander or vehicle) to attack
- Fixed a capturing bug with decapture-only units
- Armies shouldn't retreat too fast now
- Increased jump attackers 'free action' time to 15 seconds
- Necron - Accelerated Power Gen construction near gamestart
- Necron - Increased Power prereq for Attack Scarab creation to 1200pwr
- IG - Command Squad now comes out much quicker near game start (except for 4th buildprogram which no initial CS is built)
- Eldar - Kept FireDragons Squadlimit @ 1-2 random since they still work
- Eldar - Increased Harlequin rating from 5 to 6 so they are seen more often
- Orks - Added Larkin's Ork build strats (Thanks Larkin!!)
- Orks - Wartruk, Wartrakk, and KillKan now come out more balanced

Nice work guys! I'll start testing it right away...

EDIT:
I just tested Necrons on Fallen City and the AI builds three Summoning Cores (sc) in 3 out of 4 games. I thought that only occurred on Blood River? It occurs when the AI chooses the early turret build if this is any help. I have reproduced it many times. Each time the AI BO is gen, gen, gen, turret it goes sc, sc and sc after a little while. If the AI choose not to build the early turret it doesn't build three sc (then the BO is gen, gen, gen, sc). It can be reproduced in less than a minute by using thudo's excellent all AI test. This bug costs the Necron AI 240 pow and has a huge negative impact on its performance.

I could not see any difference in the Power Gen construction at the beginning of the game. It builds three gens and start capturing. Human players tend to build more earlier.

I saw the NL use the SP several times in several games.

Suggestion: Lower the rating of the Tomb Spyder.

• The AI tends to build buildings so that it cannot get out of the base!
• Most pro players only build one if any. Destroyers are much preferred and considered imba by many races.
• Apparently the Tomb Spyder have both a rating of 7.0 and 10.0 in necronunitstats.ai? Anyway, I suggest that it should be slightly lower than the Destroyer rating.

Suggestion: Build the Forbidden Archive before going T2. Then the NL will hopefully get some powers earlier and Necrons might stand a better chance.

Suggestion: Make Immortals target vehicles if possible. The AI builds a lot of these and they are less effective vs. infantry than unupgraded NW!

Edited by Inquisitor, 23 April 2007 - 02:57 PM.

[ArkhanTheBlack]

I just tested Necrons on Fallen City and the AI builds three Summoning Cores (sc) in 3 out of 4 games. I thought that only occurred on Blood River? dry.gif It occurs when the AI chooses the early turret build if this is any help. I have reproduced it many times. Each time the AI BO is gen, gen, gen, turret it goes sc, sc and sc after a little while. If the AI choose not to build the early turret it doesn't build three sc (then the BO is gen, gen, gen, sc). It can be reproduced in less than a minute by using thudo's excellent all AI test. This bug costs the Necron AI 240 pow and has a huge negative impact on its performance.

Sorry, I'm not able to reproduce this problem. It's a hard coded bug which usually happens very rarely.

I could not see any difference in the Power Gen construction at the beginning of the game. It builds three gens and start capturing. Human players tend to build more earlier.

I see! I added the 4th gen to the start build now. This should work.

Suggestion: Lower the rating of the Tomb Spyder.

Done!

Suggestion: Make Immortals target vehicles if possible. The AI builds a lot of these and they are less effective vs. infantry than unupgraded NW!

We've no influence on that.

[thudo]

The Necrons in this build are animals. They seem to own a little too much

Too bad about the Tomb Spyder, in TT its supposed to royally arse-kick all but in an RTS.. well.. my how the mighty have fallen :(

And yep.. Necrons build ALOT of Gens real quickly. Also, I cannot also produce the 3 Summoning Cores bug on FallenCity.

[ThetaOrion]

Over here in the first thread, Thud writes:

Thanks to everyone on the team for you[r] incredibly hard work getting this compatible with all the major balance changes in WinterAssault and thanks to you, the community, for your patience!

http://forums.relicn...p...age=1&pp=15

It should probably say "Dark Crusade" instead of Winter Assault. Hardly anything to make the world come to an end, but I thought I should mention it. And of course, "your incredibly hard work" instead of "you incredibly hard work", while you are in there.

--

I suppose most of that will be recycled and reused for AI Mod 2.3, within the next couple of weeks most likely.

That intro looked like good stuff to me, and it has been nicely expanded since the last time I tried reading through it. I do like the stuff about the AI Control Panel.

[Inquisitor]

I hope to get some mp testing of Heroes and Harder done tonight.

Sorry, I'm not able to reproduce this problem. It's a hard coded bug which usually happens very rarely.

Strange, I was able to reproduce it 3/4 times yesterday. The settings were:
Map: Fallen City
Match: 1 vs 1
Game Modes Used: Annihilate
Starting Location: Fixed
AI Difficulty: Hard
Resources Rate: Normal
Resources Sharing: Off
Factions: Necron AI vs SM AI
Now I can only reproduce it very rarely as you said! Sometimes the AI "only" build two SC, but it is not always related to the early turret BO as I first thought.
Here are two short replays where the AI builds two SCs.

I could not see any difference in the Power Gen construction at the beginning of the game. It builds three gens and start capturing. Human players tend to build more earlier.

I see! I added the 4th gen to the start build now. This should work.

Nice! I look forward to the next version.

Suggestion: Lower the rating of the Tomb Spyder.

Done!

I hope that you only lowered it marginally, because the TS is still a very nice unit. I also noticed a lot of special TS related code like harvesting and spawning of troops that I'd really like to see in action. I have never noticed the AI do this with TS though? This is btw one of the coolest features of the TS - especially in 1.2, because the Ressurection Orb has been nerfed to uselessness.

The Necrons in this build are animals. They seem to own a little too much

Well, if they are played well they are a hard nut to crack, but most all AI games I played on Fallen City with Necrons and SM came out with SM on top. Mostly because the Necrons march from one end of the map to the other most of the time. Though several Orbital Bombardment were also extremely well placed by the AI!!!

Too bad about the Tomb Spyder, in TT its supposed to royally arse-kick all but in an RTS.. well.. my how the mighty have fallen :(

Not at all. I have 4000+ pts of TT Necrons (3 Spyders) and the TS is mostly a support unit that resides behind the lines. The only reason my enemy makes them a priority target is because of them making it easier to get my fallen Necrons back up!

Edited by Inquisitor, 24 April 2007 - 03:24 PM.

[thudo]

- Adding a 4th early generator really doesn't do much. Necrons still kick butt and that 4th gen does take away power which could have gone to another early Warrior squad. However.. lets keep the 4th Gen in for further testing.

- Yer right: I've never seen the AI use the TombSpyder to harvest dead corposes then respawn new squads. Not that its a big deal: Necrons own.

- DoW AI, like most AI for RTS games *DOES NOT* support AIs to time to deliever of other support squads right into the fray. You cannot tell any PC RTS AI to send this squad in first as "meat" then 2-3 sec later to send the main squad after. Thats hard to script for any game engine. Of course, if Relic gave us FOCUS FIRE we could tell X squad/unit to only attack, say, vehicle_low, med, and high but regrettably we cannot.

[Inquisitor]

- Adding a 4th early generator really doesn't do much. Necrons still kick butt and that 4th gen does take away power which could have gone to another early Warrior squad. However.. lets keep the 4th Gen in for further testing.

The NW are free to build and the third squad takes ages. I think that coding the AI to play like the best humans do is a sound strategy. Along this line of thinking, you might also consider doing a "Two Monolith build" strategy on large maps. This is used by many pro players and the BO are: First scarab builds one gen, Monolith builds Scarab, scarab, NW, NW. Second scarab assist first scarab in building gen and then waits a little while for 350 pow, then builds second Monolith. All scarabs start capturing and building gens as power builds up. This is a powerful build as it allows one Monolith to overwatch NW and the other free to build the NL etc. and upgrade. btw, the Monolith itself produces 10 pow. I know it might be too much for the AI to handle, but it is just an example of a completely alternative BO.

- Yer right: I've never seen the AI use the TombSpyder to harvest dead corposes then respawn new squads.

It would be great if we could somehow activate the code. Do you (or anybody) have any ideas to how I might trigger that behavior?

Not that its a big deal: Necrons own.

No, it's not a big deal, but why would you want any race to perform less than optimal? I mean, the AI player has many disadvantages compared to a human player, so I think that all the areas where it might outperform a human (i.e. using transports, using special powers like FoF and harvesting) should be exploited if possible.

- DoW AI, like most AI for RTS games *DOES NOT* support AIs to time to deliever of other support squads right into the fray. You cannot tell any PC RTS AI to send this squad in first as "meat" then 2-3 sec later to send the main squad after. Thats hard to script for any game engine. Of course, if Relic gave us FOCUS FIRE we could tell X squad/unit to only attack, say, vehicle_low, med, and high but regrettably we cannot.

Yeah, I'm already aware of that. I was only referring to their role in TT (which you referenced). I have no illusions about them residing behind the lines in DC!

[ArkhanTheBlack]

It would be great if we could somehow activate the code. Do you (or anybody) have any ideas to how I might trigger that behavior?

The code works, but it's not very efficient since the TS does only harvest if it's idle at a waiting position. I've definitely seen it so I know it's working in general. It can be improved, but it requires a lot of try and error coding to find and harves all bodies near the base. But after Relic pretty much killed my scarab spawn code my motivation is close to zero to do that.

[LarkinVB]

Would be nice to see some tomb spyder harvest. Seems they are never at the right place to do it. Perhaps the AI can remember the place where a warrior squad died and set the spyder to IsAttacker = FALSE, doing some harvest there.

Necrons seem to build only one destroyer forced by the build program. They should build more of them.

I replayed the game of Inquisitor on Fallen City and they were easily defeated by SM as their army was too small. They should build more warriors too as long as their current infantry cap is low.

[LarkinVB]

With these small quick changes necrons did defeat SM. I think for 2.4 we should try to optimize build programs and unitstats for all races. It can make a big difference.

I think a good first step is to limited max minefields to 2, max turrets to 4 and raise the min army requirements >= 1000 in all buildprograms by 25-50%. Will help the AI to field more squads without destroying their tech.

Attached Files

•  necron_race.zip   7.98KB   24 downloads

Edited by LarkinVB, 24 April 2007 - 06:16 PM.

[LarkinVB]

Played necron + ork vs IG and tau.

Tau were very weak in t1 + t2. Necrons killed them t2. Tau commander was very late, well behind all other heros.

Edited by LarkinVB, 24 April 2007 - 07:35 PM.

[thudo]

@Larkin - what map? This can be easily looked at.. it might be a certain build program. Remember: Buildprogram4 is the Vehicle rush one so no Commander is built (although I feel it should be regardless). The current Tau initial build order is the same as all other factions so I believe you had Buildprogram4 but having the map I can then produce and resolve.

As for the Necrons - all my games I play they always build Destroyers and H.Destroyers in abundance. I know this is for sure fixed as I have tested multiple Necron games. Hearing you saying this deeply troubles me as I have absolutely no clue what happened. This was fixed and continues to be fixed as I found out a few weeks back what the problem was.

I really like your TombSpyder idea about looking for Harvestable corposes. Interesting..