1143 replies to this topic

[dojob]

The thing is, evil doesn't give a damn about it's soldiers and wouldn't waste the resources to heal them when they can just spam more.

[Devon]

Yeah, saruman and sauron didn't really care if their basic troops died, just for the overall way the battled turned out. If they lost a few extra soldiers, fine, they wouldnt mind.

[Myrdin]

well i could counter this like " I give a damn about MY soldiers "

imagine situation, this actually happens a lot

" you have lvl 5 ( dont consider Rj lvl 10 now ) for example uruk wariors, heavy armors, forged blades, - catapult hits em, and theyr hp falls to lets say 1/3, they CANT just respawn coz none of em died, but they all are half way to abyss becouse theres no way for them to heal. And you dont want to loose them either, considering they are one of you best units ( having max lvl, upgrades ). And becouse they cant heal, even some stupid goblin wariors, could take them down.

And loosing one of my best units makes me pretty much angry ( my wrath usually leads to early finish of the game, becouse i wanna revenge on enemy - which costs him his life ). I dunno about you but loosing good stuff propably wont let you untouched

and about that evil etc etc. . . . consider what you said, even mordor has his weterans units which survived many battles - gothmog included ( not refering to him as Game hero, but as a character )

Edited by Myrdin, 02 March 2008 - 03:56 PM.

[Dalf32]

simply because some orcs or generals or whatever survived doesnt mean that they needed healing or that sauron/saruman gave a rats @$$. evil factions do a lot of spamming and that is a lot of what sets them apart from good factions for me. if you give them heal, not only does it take away from that (for me at least) but i think it also unbalances it a little (adding to evil but not to good).

[Myrdin]

well um . . . yeh you might be right with that balancing . . . sigh :(

"well sorry guys, you aint gonna be healed, . . . what ? im no rasist i know you dudes are uruks, but we just dont take evil costumers, sorry try in next country "

[dojob]

Another problem with giving Evil wells is that it weakens the diversity between factions and it just makes good and evil feel less different, which is bad.

[Devon]

If you have a good ally you can always send them to their well, I think that works...

[Dalmp]

Just to chime in, I agree that healing makes little sense for evil. However, in BFMEI the balancing factor was that evils forces were more numerous. You could lose twice as many units and still retreat to respawn them all, provided you were rank 2. It was considerably more difficult to kill an Uruk formation than a gondor formation because of this. A single nazgul could flatten a gondor troop, but an eagle vs mordor orcs would only hit some of them, leaving the rest alive.

Unfortunately it seems like some factions possess both wells and large hordes, and their infantry is very strong and even upgradeable to boot. This is very unbalancing. Dare I say Arnor?




As for harassing, I've never been a fan of that play-style. The fragility of buildings was kind of an artificial mechanism instituted (or more accurately, cloned from RTS tradition) to enhance tactical play. But it also completely ruined the point of siege warfare, making every structure trivial to destroy, and making fortifications a waste of money and a large waste of game development time.

No effort I have seen thus-far to make walls important has had any kind of success. The trouble is that mod developers have been focusing on walls, when walls aren't the biggest problem (although I agree they should be stronger). The biggest problem is that your essential structures take simply too much space. If you can't fit all of your essential structures behind a wall small enough to be defended, why bother? What good putting all of your barracks behind a wall, when all your farms are dust, and you have 23 gold to your name?

So in order to make walls important, you have to make it so that farms can be protected by walls, without wasting 30k in resources to wall off an entire side of a map, and watching it the whole plan fail because some catapult breached the wall at one single point. Smaller walls = easier to defend and easier to repair = more viable. Some mods have attempted to make farms fit behind walls by decreasing their gather range. That doesn't work. Troops still need room to walk behind those walls, after all, and tripping over 35 farms placed elbow to elbow doesn't really add a fun-factor.

IMO the way to do it is to make multiple versions of farms. Some that cost 300 and produce 15 per tick. Some that cost 800 and produce 30 per tick. Some that cost 2000 and produce 60 per tick. Now players will notice that it's more cost effective to spread their farms out all over the map (and probably will start this way), but in doing so they have difficulty defending them all. Or they can rip down their old farms and put better ones into use, and still manage to fit them behind a wall. It's an investment. Prices would have to balanced ofc, I'm just spit-balling. But if properly balanced it opens up additional tactical possibilities. You could shrink your defensive requirements for a premium price.




Anyway, that's probably not a suggestion appropriate to a BFMEI mod.. So back to the topic lol.

The old BFMEI style works somewhat well, because at least the farms are close to fortifications. But I don't see anything wrong with building farms around captureable buildings. It worked in BFMEI. I didn't find it overly taxing to defend my captured areas in BFMEI (partly because they couldn't be destroyed quite as quickly). The trick is to only have a lesser number of captureables - not as many as are on the maps now. So that you are forced to defend only a few at a time.

The key in BFMEI was that capturing buildings encouraged combat. It took long enough to kill a building, that you were sure to face some opposition while doing it. You had to win a battle probably. That's the point of a wargame imo. Why play a game where 50% of play is about winning battles vs defenseless buildings, and then running away?

Edited by Dalmp, 03 March 2008 - 04:32 AM.

[Myrdin]

dude the topic for the latest comments was about healing for evil . . .

[Dalf32]

the farm idea: interesting, but not really for me. imo, if you want more sieging and walls try out the bfme1 revisited maps (4 or 5 of them i believe). i suppose if we explored the idea a bit more it could grow on me more...

arnor battallion sizes are not that large, they are pretty standard (on par with gondor and rohan). every evil faction still has larger battalion sizes (at least for some infantry). and i dont believe that the arnor infantry are quite good enough to warrant the size reduction of the dwarves or elves.

[whitewolfmxc]

Just tried beta 1.05.06 , and im very impressed by the hard work added especially at new units XD

but some what this version (actually im new to this mod but played a lot of SEE mod before) is annoying me for sieges are too easy

a fortress being "bang" down by a ram in 3 hits is really not fun nor real , is this what the mod is aiming for ? more arcade style ?

in my thought in order for a fort (city) to be siege , you first need to surround the place (in which first you defeat enemies at the outer rim) then you can use siege weapon on it , and really thats what i hope for the game and the mods , and not like unstoppable rams going juggernaut style on walls and buildings

and theres a lot of "little things" where this mod misses ( example where heroes have a bit more costum made powers to suit their character , and which SEE mod has an excellent job on)

im not here to compare mods , as really this mod has a lot more new content than SEE but its just not as deep to my opion

By hey its still beta , and i really hope this mod will continue to rock XD

Edited by whitewolfmxc, 08 March 2008 - 01:45 PM.

[Myrdin]

actually surounding your " city " with walls is absolute bullshit ( which makes me angry ) becouse you build beautifull walls, upgrade them with gates towers, etc, just to see how they get destroyed by your own catapults thx to friendly fire issue ( happned to me while playing arnor, wanted to play Stronghold type game, soo i builded double walls, added gates, towers, upgraded those walls, and how much was i shocked when some stupid orcs just neared them, and the wall was dmged, . . . soo i watched what the hell is happening - it was simple, my OWN fort trebuchet, tried to shot on the orcs, and the boulder kept hitting the wall, which after few more hits, teared down half of my damn walling !!!! ) soo much to say to this

[Devon]

Uh...ok. This is still a beta, and we're focusing more on getting stuff than new hero powers and stuff like that. If you upgrade your fortress, it takes a while to bring it down. But consider its size for a moment; a ram would really be able to bring it down in like 6 hits, which is pretty much what it takes. As for sieges, try playing on an rj style map as gondor or something and load up all your wall plots with trebs or stack your walls with citadel guards...it take a lot of enemy to break through that.

[Myrdin]

the point is, i dont want before builded city, with not functional building plots ( yup you hear right, when you buy treb. it will take money build the constrution, but treb is nowhere to find ). I want to design my own castle, where will the walls be, where will be defense posts, where will be gate etc etc. with friendly fire trebs, this whole BFME2 feature goes to sewers.

[Uruk King]

You know good faction inns can recruit Hobbits, regardless of faction, you think there could be some kind of everyone-can-recruit unit for evil?

[Myrdin]

good question, im curios too

[shadowcreature]

You know good faction inns can recruit Hobbits, regardless of faction, you think there could be some kind of everyone-can-recruit unit for evil?

i believe that the corsairs of umbar were for that slot, but for whatever reasons their button doesnt show on an inn.

[Blendor]

Hey!
I have some ideas
Arnor
Men of Arnor Spearmen


Gondor
Knights of Gondor


Rohan
Rohan Royal Guard On Foot


New Hero Skin
Erkenbrand


I like Rj_Rotwk mod

Edited by Blendor, 30 March 2008 - 10:15 AM.

[Uruk King]

Well, Erkenbrand already exists in the mod, but everything else is what I'd like to see in the mod. I was suprised that Arnor didn't have any basic spearmen (and hobbits are too small in size and number to fill that role). Gondor Knights already exist. But still the spear idea could be considered an upgrade from the stables, instead of forged blades.