85 replies to this topic

[Nazgûl]

Hey guys

One of Sûl's best ideas that I really liked is the BIG conversion to the "library system" of upgrades... It's a major change to the game that fit PERFECTLY in the idea I had with SEE from the beginning. This thing will require a LOT of work though in an insane validation of AI needed. The topic could generate lots of problems and matters so that's why I want to have this matter discussed in a thread of it's own

This is from the current ToDo List:

All factions: Learning Centres or "Library buildings" if you will, for uprades...
- This would be a HUGE modification to the game's structure, but I defenitely LOVE the idea that Sûlherokhh suggested since it would highten the "realism" factor. The idea (taken from the "Suggestions Thread" and modified to fit my directions, hehe) is this:

A) Add a 'library' building (Learning Centre) for each faction that provides upgrades for Heroes and possibly other units. Especially magic ones would be suitable for this and much more logical than just suddenly be able to do them after leveling up from battles on the battlefield.
B) Let heroes start with only 1 power, and DO NOT let them gain more by simply increasing their rank. Rank should only affect DAMAGE, ARMOR (dodging) and such, like it already does. Instead let them gain additional powers by 'buying' them in the library, like mentioned in point A! Maybe some of the hero powers are still gained by rank though? Purely physical ones like 'berserker-rage', 'spear throw', etc., but not magic spells or FO-artillery!
C) The library might either have a submenu for each hero and their specific powers, or it might provide general upgrades, used for each and every hero (specifically, this is the only fitting way for the CaH)...

Some suggested (and some altered) names would be:

• Library of Minas Tirith (MotW),
• House of Learning (Elves),
• Hall of Alchemy (Dwarves),
• Temple of Doom/Black Magic (Mordor),
• Chamber of Artifacts/Sorcery (Isengard),
• Pit of Black Magic/Summoning Pit (Wild).

Naturally these structures would be expensive, like half a fortress maybe, and all this would also require some serious AI Coding to even be considerable. That's the downside to it, unless this mod is going to be Multiplayer only... Without functional AI, I won't have this done. But I love the idea...

And these are the structures I've chosen for this after spending 2½ hours in Worldbuilder just scanning through all available buildings in BFME2... I posted screens along with each citadel/keep/fortress so you'll see how they match up! I know some of them are quite big, but we can scale them if nessesary

This would be the "Library of Minas Tirith" for Men of the West... The Stone Maker from BFME1 could be implemented again as well. Maybe it could affect the cost of ammo for Trebuchets and armor for walls and such? The others I also like and maybe we can find use for them as well. If they all fit that is, since Men porter allready have loads of structures to build.


Here's the tree house that would fit as the "House of Learning" for the Elves... Same with the other two like above, maybe we can use them too for something nice.


And a really suitable structure that could act as the "Hall of Alchemy" for the Dwarves...


This is what I'd like to see as the "Temple of Doom" for Mordor... The Sauron statue will give Mordor troops healing. I think Evil side could use that too, not only Good side!


For Isengard's "Chamber of Artifacts (or Sorcery)" I'd like something that resembles Orthanc, but still isn't off course. Orthanc can only be in Isengard, but I need something similar. Guess how glad I was when I realized that this structure from Wild faction was in Worldbuilder. The statue would fit good since Isengard was a slave under Mordor...


And finally, for the Goblins (this was hard) I think I like the round tent best, but that would recuire some reskinning or remodeling since it uses the Isengard flag on top. Other ideas would be to use a scaled version of the wild goblin pit, and use the currebt pit (scaled up) as "Pit of Black Magic". I also kept some other structures that might work some way... The goblin statue is really good.



Just bare in mind that we will have problems with:
1) Build ups! RenX can't import BFME2 structures properly according to Zimoo, so making build ups will be pretty impossible. We have to experiment and "lend" from other structures like I did for the Dwarven Diamond mine :/

2) Damage states. These structures seldom come with damage states :/ I think a good solution would be to use a combination of the fire explosion from Rain of Fire and the magic explosion from Drogoth's death. Logic would be since it's a magical structure, it will explode when "it's had enough" instead of falling apart... Thats the best way to work around lack of damage state models I think...

EDIT:
CHECK UPS on damage states in game
---------------------------------------------
- Temple of Doom : OK! (3 damage states)!

>>> Does anyone know on which maps can check the other structures for damage states OR could someone help out and playtest those for me?

Edited by Nazgûl, 27 July 2008 - 11:23 AM.

[clonecommand]

Your're suggesting something not in the movies?!?!?!?

Very cool idea. I wouldn't make it so expensive, 'cause you want to have hero powers sometime quick. 20000 is aweful lot.

I like the building that you can't buy in the game. Not the fortresses, etc.

Maybe you can make each hero have any type of power. Such as Eomer getting a toggle weapon (within its faction, no assasign for gandalf).

Clever idea!

[GilGalad]

Very good ideas!(Sûlherokhh and Nazgûl)
I have some opinions:
-The model for Halls of Alchemy should have some more "laboratory" aspect like his name says or it could be called "Hall of Artefact" (if the model don't change) because i think dwarves fit more with artefacts than Isengard.
-The wild building name could be summoning pit because i've nevers seen a tolkienian goblin using magic and summoning remember the Balrog(Summon Balrog xD)
-For Mordor Temple of Doom would be a perfect name and for Isengard The sorcery one fits more.

But its just some opinions.Otherwise all the rest are perfect and your mod is very good

Edited by GilGalad, 24 April 2007 - 01:06 AM.

[kalecx]

I really the idea that the heroes start out with a starting power but will need to pay the rest from a magic library structures. evil having healing structures. sounds sweet

[Nazgûl]

Thanks, yes I think they need it since all good faction have both healing and leadership bonuses in statues and wells, but evil has none of them. Those will be so easy to do that I can probably set them up while Sûl works on the libraries

And about the names...
Sûl says Saruman was a notorious collector of artifacts in the books. I guess Zimoo could comment on that as well I also thought sorcery would fit better, but I havent read the books in a few years/decades, lol. About the pit - yes I cant really picture goblins using magic either, and they were quite afraid of the Balrog too, so none of it actually makes sense. But... they do have magic spells in this game and they depend much on them since their goblin units are so weak. So we'll see what name I choose finally. =)

And The Temple of Doom is perfect yes, given the name of the mountain, hehe

The dwarves will have that building, there is none better than that one in the whole game, trust me. I went through them all

I will update the initial post now with my first structure check up in game. Dol Guldur Prison, that will be Temple of Doom DO have damage states! Yey!!
I need help to find the rest of the structures in game, and playtest for damage states! Any takers?

Edited by Nazgûl, 24 April 2007 - 03:22 AM.

[zimoo]

Yes he did collect artifacts. He looted Isildur's body to try and find the ring, and kept things like the Elendilimir.[/pointless comment that no one will care about]

Yeah our w3d importer doesn't import buildings with their correct unwraps, meaning it is a pain in the ass to do anything with them. It'd probably be simpler to make a building from scratch

[Nazgûl]

Make new ones?? LOL, yeah, be mu guest? Nah I guess we'll have to try and do the best we can with these... Too bad things are not consistant with BFME1 (with the buildups). I worry more about the AI coding though. I'm not entirely sure we can get the AI to use this method of upgrading heroes...

[Sûlherokhh]

Well, it'll work just like an armoury for heroes. The ai can build armouries. The ai can buy technology. The ai can upgrade troops. I don't see the difference, though the ai must of course be told to build, and probably it must be told, which upgrades to buy. This should work.

[zimoo]

AI hardly makes any use of heroes anyway.

BTW, just like to say I love this idea

[Mordor Slayer]

I really love this idea. The buildings are great, and man, are they huge! Maybe make them a bit smaller (MOTW, Mordor mostly), or we might get zooming problems (bad textures,...).

[Nazgûl]

Yeah we'll probably make them a bit smaller

[CapnAstroSponge]

I don't know....what sort of powers exactly would be purchased through these buildings?

[Bruno62339]

these upgrade "libraries" were in the elvenstar mod, so give them credit, or was the person who suggested this part of the elvenstar crew? anyways, just thought i should point that out.

[Sûlherokhh]

@capnAstroSponge:

The kind of Powers Heroes usually gain by experience in battle, but which don't really have much connection to the battle experience (like for example farsight, healing etc.) This gives non-combat heroes a chance to shine and makes creeping and skirmishing of limited use to gain powers (except for harassing the enemy and gaining Ring/Evenstar points.).

Also, a few powers are still gained by gaining levels through combat, mainly combat powers (berserker rage). Also, every Hero will have at least one starting power.

@Bruno:

I had that idea when i was working on Elvenstar, so of course my colleagues should get credit, especially MetzMan. But these libraries will work differently and have a different underlying purpose, even if it's all about 'buying' upgrades.

Edited by Sulherokhh, 24 April 2007 - 08:50 PM.

[CapnAstroSponge]

Right, now it makes sense.

I'm not sure, I suppose I don't mind it, but don't make it too expensive. About the same or a bit less then a fortress is my guess, with each upgrade costing about.....oh.....5k for the lesser, 7k for the medium, and 10k for the higher up.

Obviously, this is just my idea. Whatever you guys think's good is fine with me.

[InfernoX]

Looks sweet, but I have an idea for the goblin one.

In the good campaign there was a mission with the goblin stronghold and you had to attack it, there was a nifty piece of building that I think would suit this kind of thing much better.( I could try and get a screenshot of it)

[Phil]

Finally had some time to browse through these forums a bit again. I really like this idea, it surely adds a lot of unique style to your mod. Seems what started as a rather generic "fixing" mod is now becoming a mod with some of the most unique ideas I've seen (which still keep the same envirnonment). In other words: keep up the good work

[Devon]

i dont really like the mordor one or goblin one, because the mordor is just basically dul goldur, and the goblin is just a little tent. and before u tell me to go look for some myself, im about to . I'll msn u if i find anything.

[CapnAstroSponge]

InfernoX, I've got an idea what you're talking about, good idea.

[Nazgûl]

DLotS - thanks man! It's always an honour to be complemented by an admin Even if you went weird on me on msn the other day. I'd advise you to read the message history though, and you'll see that I was making a joke about myself and not you

Looks sweet, but I have an idea for the goblin one.

In the good campaign there was a mission with the goblin stronghold and you had to attack it, there was a nifty piece of building that I think would suit this kind of thing much better.( I could try and get a screenshot of it)

You might be thinking about the Goblin temple. Yes, it's a good one, but I would have to scale it to like 25% percent, cause it's massive! But we could try that one yes


And Yoda: that is Dol Guldur prison, not the temple, and the ONLY place it's used in the whole game is WAY up in Dol Guldur map where noone goes. I wont take any notice to the Campaign when chossong structures. What matter is what looks good, and that looks sweet. Plus it has three damaga states!