9 replies to this topic

[m@tt]

Allatar and Pallando went into the East (Rhun) and were never seen again by the free people, therefore shouldn't be part of Gondor. They were not part of the War of the Ring at all so therefore should not be in the game.

Radagast didn't feature in the WOTR (bar sending the Eagles), he kept himself to himself and lived near Mirkwood and therefore if he were to feature it would be for the Elves.

Gondor has a very strong variety of units and heroes. They have soldiers, archers, rangers, cavalry, trebuchet, spearmen (the fountain guards).

It is great that you have taken interest in the mod, but I'm afraid that there is very little chance of the Blue Wizards being included. Radagast is more likely, but then the Elves have a lot of heroes as it is.

[Lauri]

oh... then why didn't he?

Gandalf was the only one to help a good faction in the WotR, official atleast... Alatar and Palando might've helped in their ways, like messing things up for the Easterlings, or they might've been slain... Saruman didn't do anything in the WotR, except sacking the Shire... Radagast sent elves eagles, he didn't join Gandalf....

And all the 5 Istari came to Middle-Earth at the same time I belive...

edit: fixed that godforsaken typo

Edited by Lauri, 25 April 2007 - 09:15 PM.

[m@tt]

But the 'what if' only goes so far. You could say what if Morgoth hadn't been overthrown, then he could be in the mod.

Elrond, Arwen etc are in there because of the 'what if' thing, but the difference between them and the wizards is that
1. they played an active and important part in the War of the Ring even if they didn't fight,
2. they fit in properly with a faction.

[Olorin]

I find it hard to believe that you think that Gondor is under-powered. All of the factions are balanced, including Celeglin's modifications, so I don't see any reason for change. And besides, adding more heroes (especially people like Istari who didn't get much mention [except for Radagast] whatsoever) isn't going to make it balanced nor attractive.

Radagast didn't feature in the WOTR (bar sending the Eagles), he kept himself to himself and lived near Mirkwood and therefore if he were to feature it would be for the Elves.

Not true, you dont know that. He Arrived on Middle Earth with Gandalf, and would have joined him in battle in my opinion.

No, I'm afraid that mh_gollum's correct here. Radagast lived in Rhosgobel on the western border of Mirkwood, and all he really cared about was nature (birds, beasts, plants, etc.). It is stated that he never helped Gandalf in any real way (except sending the Eagles, as mh has already stated), so it wouldn't fit to include him, especially in Gondor.

I know that didnt hapend, but this mod deals with "what if..." and all I am saying is that I belive that they would have helped Gandalf on battle, since he became the lider instead of Saruman. Combined with the circumstances that diminished Saruman's, he was able to assume a role as the new head of the order. The Valar sent him back to complete his task as the new White Wizard or, as Gandalf said, "Saruman as he should have been". But, even in this greater form, he kept the "radiant flame" of his power vieled except when in great need.

OK, consider this: 2 of the 5 wizards (a.k.a the Blue ones) haven't been seen or heard of since they continued their mission to Rhun, so they wouldn't just magically appear after a millenium or so (hehe, I just realised, the wizards wouldn't have magically appeared ) . 1 of the remaining 3 wizards has turned evil, so it's nigh impossible for him to suddenly turn to the good side. And finally, 1 of the remaining 2 loves nature more than he does his fellow men, so why would he leave his most treasured beings to go help those he doesn't care for as much? You see now how your request seemed a bit out of the ordinary?

And all the 5 Istari came to Middle-Earth at the same time I belive...

Now, about this: "And all the 5 Istari came to Middle-Earth at the same time I belive..." totaly wrong
The first was Saruman, Second Alatar and Palando, in the end was Gandalf and Radagast.

I believe that Guest here is right on this one. Saruman came first, *forgets order here so leaves a black space*, then lastly Gandalf.

But the 'what if' only goes so far. You could say what if Morgoth hadn't been overthrown, then he could be in the mod.

Elrond, Arwen etc are in there because of the 'what if' thing, but the difference between them and the wizards is that
1. they played an active and important part in the War of the Ring even if they didn't fight,
2. they fit in properly with a faction.

Quoted for the truth. The 'what if...' factor only applies to the Elves, with a couple of exceptions I think. (And, just for the sake of saying it, if Morgoth hadn't been overthrown then the War of the Ring wouldn't have happened )

OK, now for my opinion on the argument *huge fanfare* All this argument has been about is a competition of who has the most Tolkien-lore in these forums. We're debating about whether Alatar came before Pallando in Middle-Earth (I didn't put their names there by coincidence), or what Radagast's role was in the War of the Ring. Now that's just pretty stupid, not to mention pointless. In my opinion you can all either research it for yourselves and make up your own hypotheses, or (for those who honestly can't be stuffed) you can visit this and this. Most questions like these have been answered in the texts, or on the aforementioned links. I know that I participated in this 'competition', but hopefully it'll be the last post. And anyway, Celeglin won't want another pointless debate on Tolkien-lore; there have been many in the past, and all of them had to be closed. We don't have to spam up his forums yet again. Sorry for the obesely long post, but someone had to stop this.

And to Guest: your suggestions would be cool in the game, but they are pointless. Gondor is fine as it is; believe me, Gondor is my favourite faction (except for the Elves). It doesn't need any improvements whatsoever (just maybe additions here and there, like adding Denethor, as Celeglin has been wanting to). They aren't gonna happen. There is the slightest (and I mean slightest) chance that Radagast might be included in some later release, but otherwise there will be no more Istari included in the mod unless they were active participants in the War of the Ring, end of story.

Also, I'm sorry if I sound impetuous and rude here, I'm just letting you know.

Edited by Olorin, 27 April 2007 - 07:22 AM.

[Taralom]

let's make one thing clear:

GONDOR IS NOT WEAK!!

it's just your style and the way you are playing.
gondor has several tactics which each one of them is very powerful.
i like to play with gondor because of the upgrades and all.

factions as i see them:

Gondor: defensive faction. (there wall is upgradable and can become a very strong fortress.)
Rohan: the cavalry faction. (that means fast tactics)
Mordor: the rush tactic-faction
Isengard: the major upgradable attacking faction.

[adummy]

This mod does go off the "what if..." statement, but a realistic "what if...". orginally (for the movie version) Arwen was going to go to Helm's Deep too, but PJ realised that this was a bad idea/didnt add enough Aragorn/Arwen drama. No blue wizards because i know Celeglin wont do it (and he would have to make up everything because they were never described to have anything special (at least in my knowledge)).

We don't have to spam up his forums yet again.

This is coming from the king of spam

And anyway, Celeglin won't want another pointless debate on Tolkien-lore; there have been many in the past, and all of them had to be closed.

and i dont want another Tolkien-lore argument.

Closed.