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Little Suggestion


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#1 Guest_Gandalfjon_*

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Posted 25 April 2007 - 06:25 PM

Gondor don't have a good army, have good heros (like Gandalf), but not a good army. I
think it is still unbalanced thou, there should be more heros for Gondor. I belive
you should create 3 more heros, the 3 Istari as heros of Gondor, and it makes sence to put then on Gondor
since the Istari were sent to help men against Sauron. And it would be fair to
Gondor be strong with heros as Isengard is with siege, Mordor with its armies and
Rohan with both (plus, they have ents).
Here is a description of the other Istari (I hope it helps):

Maiar Name: Alatar
Known In Middle-Earth As: Morinehtar?
Rank/Color: Blue
Valar Sponsor: Orome
Very little is known of Alatar. In the History of Middle-Earth Vol XII, there is a
notation written very late in Tolkien's life that refers to him as Morinehtar though
it is not clear whether this is an alternate name or a name by which he was known in
Middle-Earth. He journeyed far into the Eastern lands but never returned. Whether he
turned to evil purposes or was destroyed, Tolkien never said. Although, we may be
able to assume that since Alatar had not returned to Valinor in Maiar form as of the
beginning of the Fourth Age he may well have still existed in Middle-Earth up to
that time.

Maiar Name: Aiwendel
Known In Middle-Earth As: Radagast
Rank/Color: Brown
Valar Sponsor: Yavanna
While Radagast did play a minor role in the events of the War of the Ring, he had
long turned from his purpose by that point. He had grown distinterested in the
affairs of Elves and Men and became enamored with the wild beasts and birds of
Middle-Earth. Aule's female counterpart, Yavanna, requested quite enthusiastically
that Aiwendel be allowed to accompany Curumo (Saruman). Though Curumo came to
Middle-Earth first and alone, Aiwendel may have ultimately become somewhat of an
annoyance to the White Wizard. Saruman probably felt that any responsibility
assigned to him for Radagast was an imposition he did not deserve. Saruman's
contempt for Radagast is expressed openly in "The Fellowship of the Ring". It should
not be surprising, however, that a Maiar of Yavanna's people would take such an
interest in the flora and fauna of Middle-Earth considering that it was she who
created them in the first place.

Maiar Name: Pallando
Known In Middle-Earth As: Romestamo?
Rank/Color: Blue
Valar Sponsor: Orome, or possibly Mandos and Nienna
Pallando is the other "blue wizard" to which Tolkien refers. It is said that he was
chosen as a companion to Alatar and was of equal rank. His fate seems to follow that
of Alatar and, like his counterpart, his return to Valinor is not noted.

That said, there is one more thing I want to suggest: Gandalf should have his
leadership removed and another power added. I wuld like him to have a power of
protection, like his buble shild, and make him invulnerable to atacks for 30 seconds
or something like it. Or he sould have a power for his ring, Narya, and he saying "I
wield the Flame of Anor, You cannot pass!"

Of corse these are just suggestions but it would be nice, for me at least, if you
consider them.

#2 m@tt

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Posted 25 April 2007 - 06:44 PM

Allatar and Pallando went into the East (Rhun) and were never seen again by the free people, therefore shouldn't be part of Gondor. They were not part of the War of the Ring at all so therefore should not be in the game.

Radagast didn't feature in the WOTR (bar sending the Eagles), he kept himself to himself and lived near Mirkwood and therefore if he were to feature it would be for the Elves.

Gondor has a very strong variety of units and heroes. They have soldiers, archers, rangers, cavalry, trebuchet, spearmen (the fountain guards).

It is great that you have taken interest in the mod, but I'm afraid that there is very little chance of the Blue Wizards being included. Radagast is more likely, but then the Elves have a lot of heroes as it is.
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#3 Guest_Guest_*

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Posted 25 April 2007 - 06:59 PM

Allatar and Pallando went into the East (Rhun) and were never seen again by the free people, therefore shouldn't be part of Gondor. They were not part of the War of the Ring at all so therefore should not be in the game.

Radagast didn't feature in the WOTR (bar sending the Eagles), he kept himself to himself and lived near Mirkwood and therefore if he were to feature it would be for the Elves.

Gondor has a very strong variety of units and heroes. They have soldiers, archers, rangers, cavalry, trebuchet, spearmen (the fountain guards).

It is great that you have taken interest in the mod, but I'm afraid that there is very little chance of the Blue Wizards being included. Radagast is more likely, but then the Elves have a lot of heroes as it is.


Compared to the other factions Gondor is week, in my opinion of course.
But, about the Blue Istari, you are totaly right, but this mod is about what would happen if the elfs went to battle. That dind't happen, so the it is not an absurd to suggest the blue istari for gondor, because, like Gandalf, that is the faction they would have helped.

#4 Guest_Guest_*

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Posted 25 April 2007 - 07:04 PM

Radagast didn't feature in the WOTR (bar sending the Eagles), he kept himself to himself and lived near Mirkwood and therefore if he were to feature it would be for the Elves.


Not true, you dont know that. He Arrived on Middle Earth with Gandalf, and would have joined him in battle in my opinion.

#5 Lauri

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Posted 25 April 2007 - 09:13 PM

oh... then why didn't he? :huh:

Gandalf was the only one to help a good faction in the WotR, official atleast... Alatar and Palando might've helped in their ways, like messing things up for the Easterlings, or they might've been slain... Saruman didn't do anything in the WotR, except sacking the Shire... Radagast sent elves eagles, he didn't join Gandalf....

And all the 5 Istari came to Middle-Earth at the same time I belive...

edit: fixed that godforsaken typo :)

Edited by Lauri, 25 April 2007 - 09:15 PM.

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#6 Guest_Guest_*

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Posted 26 April 2007 - 04:58 PM

oh... then why didn't he? :thumbsupsmiley:

Gandalf was the only one to help a good faction in the WotR, official atleast... Alatar and Palando might've helped in their ways, like messing things up for the Easterlings, or they might've been slain... Saruman didn't do anything in the WotR, except sacking the Shire... Radagast sent elves eagles, he didn't join Gandalf....

And all the 5 Istari came to Middle-Earth at the same time I belive...

edit: fixed that godforsaken typo :thumbsupsmiley:


I know that didnt hapend, but this mod deals with "what if..." and all I am saying is that I belive that they would have helped Gandalf on battle, since he became the lider instead of Saruman. Combined with the circumstances that diminished Saruman's, he was able to assume a role as the new head of the order. The Valar sent him back to complete his task as the new White Wizard or, as Gandalf said, "Saruman as he should have been". But, even in this greater form, he kept the "radiant flame" of his power vieled except when in great need.

Now, about this: "And all the 5 Istari came to Middle-Earth at the same time I belive..." totaly wrong
The first was Saruman, Second Alatar and Palando, in the end was Gandalf and Radagast.

#7 m@tt

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Posted 26 April 2007 - 05:10 PM

But the 'what if' only goes so far. You could say what if Morgoth hadn't been overthrown, then he could be in the mod.

Elrond, Arwen etc are in there because of the 'what if' thing, but the difference between them and the wizards is that
1. they played an active and important part in the War of the Ring even if they didn't fight,
2. they fit in properly with a faction.
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#8 Olorin

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Posted 27 April 2007 - 07:18 AM

I find it hard to believe that you think that Gondor is under-powered. :thumbsupsmiley: All of the factions are balanced, including Celeglin's modifications, so I don't see any reason for change. And besides, adding more heroes (especially people like Istari who didn't get much mention [except for Radagast] whatsoever) isn't going to make it balanced nor attractive. :thumbsupsmiley:


Radagast didn't feature in the WOTR (bar sending the Eagles), he kept himself to himself and lived near Mirkwood and therefore if he were to feature it would be for the Elves.


Not true, you dont know that. He Arrived on Middle Earth with Gandalf, and would have joined him in battle in my opinion.

No, I'm afraid that mh_gollum's correct here. Radagast lived in Rhosgobel on the western border of Mirkwood, and all he really cared about was nature (birds, beasts, plants, etc.). It is stated that he never helped Gandalf in any real way (except sending the Eagles, as mh has already stated), so it wouldn't fit to include him, especially in Gondor.

I know that didnt hapend, but this mod deals with "what if..." and all I am saying is that I belive that they would have helped Gandalf on battle, since he became the lider instead of Saruman. Combined with the circumstances that diminished Saruman's, he was able to assume a role as the new head of the order. The Valar sent him back to complete his task as the new White Wizard or, as Gandalf said, "Saruman as he should have been". But, even in this greater form, he kept the "radiant flame" of his power vieled except when in great need.

OK, consider this: 2 of the 5 wizards (a.k.a the Blue ones) haven't been seen or heard of since they continued their mission to Rhun, so they wouldn't just magically appear after a millenium or so (hehe, I just realised, the wizards wouldn't have magically appeared :thumbsupsmiley:) . 1 of the remaining 3 wizards has turned evil, so it's nigh impossible for him to suddenly turn to the good side. And finally, 1 of the remaining 2 loves nature more than he does his fellow men, so why would he leave his most treasured beings to go help those he doesn't care for as much? You see now how your request seemed a bit out of the ordinary?

And all the 5 Istari came to Middle-Earth at the same time I belive...

Now, about this: "And all the 5 Istari came to Middle-Earth at the same time I belive..." totaly wrong
The first was Saruman, Second Alatar and Palando, in the end was Gandalf and Radagast.

I believe that Guest here is right on this one. Saruman came first, *forgets order here so leaves a black space*, then lastly Gandalf.

But the 'what if' only goes so far. You could say what if Morgoth hadn't been overthrown, then he could be in the mod.

Elrond, Arwen etc are in there because of the 'what if' thing, but the difference between them and the wizards is that
1. they played an active and important part in the War of the Ring even if they didn't fight,
2. they fit in properly with a faction.

Quoted for the truth. :xcahik_: The 'what if...' factor only applies to the Elves, with a couple of exceptions I think. (And, just for the sake of saying it, if Morgoth hadn't been overthrown then the War of the Ring wouldn't have happened :thumbsupsmiley:)

OK, now for my opinion on the argument *huge fanfare* All this argument has been about is a competition of who has the most Tolkien-lore in these forums. We're debating about whether Alatar came before Pallando in Middle-Earth (I didn't put their names there by coincidence), or what Radagast's role was in the War of the Ring. Now that's just pretty stupid, not to mention pointless. In my opinion you can all either research it for yourselves and make up your own hypotheses, or (for those who honestly can't be stuffed) you can visit this and this. Most questions like these have been answered in the texts, or on the aforementioned links. I know that I participated in this 'competition', but hopefully it'll be the last post. And anyway, Celeglin won't want another pointless debate on Tolkien-lore; there have been many in the past, and all of them had to be closed. We don't have to spam up his forums yet again. Sorry for the obesely long post, but someone had to stop this.

And to Guest: your suggestions would be cool in the game, but they are pointless. Gondor is fine as it is; believe me, Gondor is my favourite faction (except for the Elves). It doesn't need any improvements whatsoever (just maybe additions here and there, like adding Denethor, as Celeglin has been wanting to). They aren't gonna happen. There is the slightest (and I mean slightest) chance that Radagast might be included in some later release, but otherwise there will be no more Istari included in the mod unless they were active participants in the War of the Ring, end of story.

Also, I'm sorry if I sound impetuous and rude here, I'm just letting you know.

Edited by Olorin, 27 April 2007 - 07:22 AM.

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...The Journey doesn't end here; death is just another path, one that we all must take. The grey rain curtain of this world rolls back, and all turns to silver glass. And then you see it. White shores...and beyond. A far green country, under a swift sunrise...

...Many folk like to know beforehand what is to be set on the table; but those who have laboured to prepare the feast like to keep their secret; for wonder makes the words of praise louder...

...Stand, Men of the West! Stand and wait! This is the hour of doom... ~ Gandalf the White, The Return of the King

#9 Taralom

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Posted 27 April 2007 - 10:06 AM

let's make one thing clear:

GONDOR IS NOT WEAK!!

it's just your style and the way you are playing.
gondor has several tactics which each one of them is very powerful.
i like to play with gondor because of the upgrades and all.

factions as i see them:

Gondor: defensive faction. (there wall is upgradable and can become a very strong fortress.)
Rohan: the cavalry faction. (that means fast tactics)
Mordor: the rush tactic-faction
Isengard: the major upgradable attacking faction.
If the above post offended you in any way,
please take note that, until further notice, I don't care, so get lost.

#10 adummy

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Posted 27 April 2007 - 10:25 PM

This mod does go off the "what if..." statement, but a realistic "what if...". orginally (for the movie version) Arwen was going to go to Helm's Deep too, but PJ realised that this was a bad idea/didnt add enough Aragorn/Arwen drama. No blue wizards because i know Celeglin wont do it (and he would have to make up everything because they were never described to have anything special (at least in my knowledge)).

We don't have to spam up his forums yet again.

This is coming from the king of spam :evgr: :)

And anyway, Celeglin won't want another pointless debate on Tolkien-lore; there have been many in the past, and all of them had to be closed.

and i dont want another Tolkien-lore argument.

Closed.
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