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New Ring Heroes? Debate - Movies v/s Books


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Poll: Should S.E.E. have new Ring Heroes for each faction? (113 member(s) have cast votes)

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#21 Onicrom

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Posted 15 May 2007 - 07:16 PM

Well, if you want to hear it then I withdraw my comment about moving on (especially now that it has its own section). Sorry about the argument though.

I was looking at another mod The Age of Men, and they're using Thorin Oakenshield for dwarven ring hero, the reason I'm bringing that up is because the Dwarves seem kinda screwed in this subject and that seems to be the best solution even though he is no-where in the movies. If you dont like that idea Nazgul, I think you should make him a normal Dwarven hero because they dont have very many.
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#22 Mordor Slayer

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Posted 15 May 2007 - 07:51 PM

I don't like the idea of different ring heroes for each faction; it just won't work for for example the dwarves. Like said above, stick with the idea of keeping Sauron and Galadriel, and maybe adding Saruman.
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#23 Bruno62339

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Posted 15 May 2007 - 08:04 PM

i voted for change, because i want to see as many new things as possible ya know? but mordor should still get sauron and elves having galadriel. here's my ideas for new ring heroes, some of these won't be period correct or in the movies, so just ignore them if that's an issue.

Isengard: i guess an uberfied Saruman......
Goblins: The Great Goblin, amazing leadership, but could be a tank hero too due to his massive size.
Dwarves: not sure to be honest...
Men: Isildur, lame i know, but all i can think of.....

those ideas aren't that great, except for the great goblin, i have always wanted to see him in a mod :)
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#24 Nazgûl

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Posted 15 May 2007 - 08:28 PM

"The Great Goblin"... is that a caracter from the books? *blush* PLease mind that I haven't read them in decades... kindof... :S

What if we... hm... used a Azog-like goblin... Like the one in RotWK, but changed into a new hero, maybe that one? ^ *trying to be creative*

Cause it leans towards each faction having a new Ring Hero... And whatever way we go we're always going to make someone disapointed :s

*oups, accidently pressed the view button on the poll - is it over now* :(

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#25 Bruno62339

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Posted 15 May 2007 - 08:40 PM

yeah, the great goblin was in the hobbit, so he died way before the war of the so that may be a problem...... if you do put him in the game, using a skinny gob like azog would be just wrong lol, because he was described as being bigger than almost all men, so he would have to be tall, and porky like gorkil :) anyways, i dont care if he is a ring hero or just a regular one, but i think he is a good idea for a new gob hero because he's not made up (like gorkil and drogoth) and he could be a tank hero, which is what they lack.

here's some info, this is what his ingame model could look like too: http://www.tuckborou...ml#Great_Goblin
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#26 Lotrfan2

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Posted 15 May 2007 - 09:05 PM

that may work, but a tank normally has a shield or heavy armor.
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#27 clonecommand

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Posted 15 May 2007 - 09:19 PM

Well, a super strong goblin would be super resistant...

#28 CapnAstroSponge

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Posted 15 May 2007 - 11:15 PM

Yeah, that's an interesting idea, certainly easier then Morgoth. I like the sound of the Great Goblin, for what it's worth.
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#29 clonecommand

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Posted 15 May 2007 - 11:57 PM

I like the Goblin idea. The pic of the fat goblin is pretty funny. :)

Since he is so fat, maybe have carriers for him, so he only dishes out magic damage?

#30 Onicrom

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Posted 16 May 2007 - 01:06 AM

Why would he have magical powers? In the books or even in the moivies barely anyone has any magical ability. In Tolkien's world you dont just dish out magic to anyone who wants it, only immortals and near-immortals have magic, its not an ability possesed by a simple goblin no matter how fat he is. That and he had no magical ability anyway.

Why would the goblins have Morgoth? Granted he's their creator (well sort of) but still...

Maybe the King of the Dead should be the ring hero for MoTW? The only problem with him is that he is incorporeal and thus the only thing that could hurt would be Narcil and Sauron, so thats a little inconsistant if he takes damage from units. Then again he's in the movies and is powerful enough to be a ring hero. MoTW have very little options as well.
So I suggest...

MoTW: King of the Dead
Elves: keep Galadrial (replace the lightburst power with some kind of flood power maybe Arwen's because Nenya is the ring of water *see below)
Dwarves: Thorin Oakenshield (with Orcrist)
Isengard: Saruman
Mordor: keep Sauron
Goblins: The Great Goblin

*I know what your thinking, that its Arwen's power. Well, in the books it was actually Elrond that unleashed the flood and Gandalf shaped the water to look like horsemen, so Arwen didnt actually do anything, at all. She wasnt even actually in that scene, it was actually Glorfindel that carried Frodo to Rivendel on his horse.
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#31 Bruno62339

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Posted 16 May 2007 - 01:07 AM

clone, did you get that idea from the lone wolf mod? because i have seen how he is in that mod too, and i think it's really unique. since he's too large and old (if we pretend he didn't die lol), he is carried around and he has to use summons or magic to fight. i think that would be cool, or if that's too much work, he could be "young" so he can move on his own like a normal hero.
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#32 Nazgûl

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Posted 16 May 2007 - 02:38 AM

I agree with Onicrom, magic should not be handed out to anyone, even though I do think that some ordinary things such as banner can best be explained as some kind of magic (since they spawn units on the field =p).

- The Great Goblin (if we (I) decide on him) could be done by using a reskinned and scaled down cave troll I think. And about some beeings being dead in the 3rd age, that we just have to disregard of. Like I said before, all that die here can be respawned anyway, and if you can use the ring to bring back Sauron to physical form, why not being able to bring back...
- ...Isildur as a Ring Hero for men. He has a model and skin already, at least a skin and I think he best suit the role as being easily corrupted (think of Elrond watching him not drop the Ring in Mount Doom).
- King of the Dead has a GREAT model in Wars of Arda and I think that maybe I have a chance of getting that from Argolis. If not as a Ring Hero I still would like him in the game. Maybe as an extra feature when summoning Oathbreakers... maybe we can prolongue their "life span" to double if you have him, and extend their damage with a bonus?
- Dwarves is the most tricky part yes... how about King of Dale? Hm nah... it should be a dwarf I guess... I'll read about Thorin!

It all depends on how much Sûl is willing to do, since he's doing most of the "heavy" ini coding now =)

PS, Morgoth (If I put him in, will NOT be a Ring Hero, I never said that LOL, that would be the end of all things as we know it in Middle Earth... no, he would "only" be a very cool summon like the Balrog, only Uber powerful and short... maybe 30 secs... just for show :)

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#33 Sûlherokhh

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Posted 16 May 2007 - 08:40 AM

I have to say that i really dislike the way that EA has implemented the 'find One Ring' - 'bring to fortress' - 'build superhero ME-variant' - mechanism. The coding itself is a very good way of learning how to use the ini-aspect of this for your own ends. So i will just present my oprimistic ideas of how i would like this to work (and i must admit, i usually simply uncheck the RingHero-box when playing).

First and foremost, what should the effects of having the ring be. Obviously, we must assume that whoever captures it will use it for his/her own advantage and not destroy it, as that would end the major conflict almost immediately. Sauron's will would crumble just like his army. The Mordor faction would be kinda obsolete. So it will be used. It is said (somewhere in one of the HoME volumes) that the ring strengthens and distorts the wearers most prominent traits (which is why hobbits become invisible), prolongs life (acting in a way like a 'statis field generator') and in the end, makes the wearer's will erode over time. The strength of these effects also depend on the wearers wishes and fears. It always differs depending on who is wearing the ring!

I suggest there not be one buildable hero in each faction but instead, depending on which hero picks up the ring, that hero would become the new RingHero. After all, if you were a 'hero'-minion for the dwarves (maybe Gloin), wouldn't you keep the ring for yourself if you found it, becoming the new boss in town? I admit, not all heroes are suitable. Some are so dominated by their master or simply have no free will of their own, that they would simply bring it home.


... To be continued (as i have to break off for a second now, lol)


So, as RingHeroes i would very much like to see (disregarding practicality or other concerns) the following:
  • Mordor - Sauron, CaH
  • Isengard - Saruman, CaH
  • Corrupted Wild - Drogoth, GoblinKing, CaH
  • Men of the West - Boromir, CaH-Wizard, CaH-Dwarf and, with a quite different gaming mechanism (let's call it the KeepButNotUse-Option), Aragorn, the Rohirrim Heroes and CaH-CaptainOfGondor, CaH-ElvenArcher
  • Elves - Hobbits, All Elven heroes with the KeepButNotUse-Option
  • Dwarves - All heroes
Now to the effects of the Ring:
  • No new build option for heroes. Yes, that would mean Sauron would become a standard hero, starting at level 1 and having found a way to temporarily stay corporeal (maybe with a reduced health to represent his fragile shape).
  • Having it multiplies the effects of special powers (stronger leadership, faster recharge, increased Health/Damage)
  • Slow deterioration: Wearers are poisoned become neutral wights upon death and can subsequently not be revived. Hobbits become much like Gollum instead (and neutral too, hehe). In this case, they will keep the One Ring until someone comes and kills them to take the One Ring away from them.
The KeepButNotUse-Option would mean, the hero can bring the ring to the fortress like before (which will now be an option only available to heroes, not to troops), which will now trigger a faster recharge time for all Spellbook Spells. Knowing that the enemy is going to overrun you soon to get the One Ring makes them double their efforts to keep them from succeeding. Also the SpellBook is a good representative for the abilities of the faction as a whole. Heroes that would keep the One Ring for themselves to use it as they see fit don't really act for anyone but themselves.


Final notes:
I think Bilbo would be better suited as the initial bearer of the ring, as in the books as well as in the movies everyone is after him to get it. Gollum doesn't have it, he is looking too. That could pave the way of making Gollum a playable hero once again, maybe the ultimate ring hunter there is (think 'sneak attack').
Since i mentioned it above, the SpellBook should, in my opinion, represent the resources that a faction as a whole can mobilize. Powers that are basically personal should not be located in it. Group efforts fit nicely in their ranks though. The exception to this would be Sauron, i suppose, as his will is just about all that holds Mordor together.

My 2 eurocents, Sûl. :sleep:

Edited by Sulherokhh, 16 May 2007 - 09:27 AM.

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#34 GilGalad

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Posted 16 May 2007 - 04:25 PM

I agree with Sûl, but he mentioned something i think that could not happen: the dwarves do not get corrupted by the One Ring thats why Sauron manage to find and get back the Seven dwarven rings.(i think it is right, i remeber that i read this).But other wise the teory of Sûl is perfect. :sleep:
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#35 Onicrom

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Posted 16 May 2007 - 05:34 PM

I have to say, I like Cahik's idea the most. I dont think anyone or anything could resist the power of the one ring, though, I really dont remember why the dwarves lost their rings, someone will have to find Zimoo and ask him. Though I do remember that Gimli tried to destroy the ring with his axe, which means that he had some pretty strong will power.
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#36 Mordor Slayer

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Posted 16 May 2007 - 06:07 PM

I have to say, I like Cahik's idea the most.


You mean Sûl?
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#37 Bruno62339

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Posted 16 May 2007 - 06:37 PM

scaled down cave troll I think.


that is weird, i was just gonna post that idea today. i just want to thank you for considering my idea, even if it doesn't get put in. some modders just go by their own ideas, but you seem to really care about others ideas :sleep:
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#38 Onicrom

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Posted 16 May 2007 - 07:36 PM

Oh woops, ya I meant Sulkherokhh.
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#39 Servant of Sauron

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Posted 16 May 2007 - 09:01 PM

I would have to disagree with anyone who says that Saruman and Sauron had a good "friendship" in the movies. If that was the case why would Saruman command that Lurtz bring the Hobbits to him, specifically to Isengard not to Mordor or Sauron. That and the fact that Ugluk told Grishnahk(I spelled it incorrectly I'm sure)where to shove it when he demanded that the Uruks give over the Hobbits to him to bring to Mordor ie. "I don't take orders from Orc maggots!"

No...Saruman would have taken the ring for himself I'm sure.

That said Mordor should keep Sauron and Elves should keep Galadriel.

I would also suggest having ring heroes be very powerful famous characters that every one will recognize instead of CaH.

Edited by Servant of Sauron, 16 May 2007 - 09:06 PM.

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#40 Nazgûl

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Posted 16 May 2007 - 10:19 PM

lol, you know... just to make clear, this thread was made just so you could keep discussing this in a separeta place. It does not mean that I have decided that this is what I want for this mod. The ideas are flying from all directions and the one that means the most work without question is team member Sûl's. Usually I swollow like 95% of his ideas by I just feel like this one is way over the top (sorry Sûl). Doing this would not only mean 100% work for Sûl and none for me (that is just way to much work for me), but it would also mean a Final Release in like spring 2009 or something :sleep:

But seriously, it started with the question that MAYBE we should have some alternate Ring Heroes, and now we are discussing more or less a whole make over of the core of this game :lol: I just wanna point out that maybe none of this will happen, meybe I just get overwhelmed with the work load ahead and decide to keep ring heroes as they are. But there are some basics that I like about Sûl's initial ideas regarding this bit. Like the Ring FX that should be moved to the Hero that weilds the ring, and maybe some effects on that heroes abilities and skins. Stuff like that, maybe. But I dont know, I just dont want this to be a NEVER ending project, even though I like working on it. But I also like to not loose too much control of the mod, which I would do starting something humongous like that, which seems even bigger than the Library system that Sûl is basically doing himself ^_^

This is certain though...
- If Sûl and I can't agree on this part, nothing will happen to the Ring Hero system, cause I have too much to do (irl and on SEE), and WAY to much done on SEE behind me the last 5 months to find the strenght to venture into that much coding on my own just to get my will done :p
- If Sûl and I agree on how this part should be setup, he will do the coding and I will try to assist when not doing other things. That would probably mean though, that I want to keep the "middle idea" with "only" new ring heroes, and certainly no CaH - I hate the CaH all together and I wish they didn't exist in the game actually. I like to have units that people recognize from the movies, and if not there, then from the books :wub:

Edited by Nazgûl, 16 May 2007 - 10:24 PM.

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