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#21 Solinx

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Posted 23 May 2007 - 05:38 PM

If that is their final art, it doesn't look too good indeed.

But game graphics are usually updated significantly just before release. Considering the game will be released in 2009, I expect these graphics to improve quite a bit.

Why not build the basics of a SC2 division and update in every 3 months, until SC2 arrives in 2009, you'll have a high Google ranking by then and maybe someone to run it

It's a nice idea, but we'd need someone to make that site, and currently there is already quite a bit to do.
Wouldn't stop anyone from volunteering for it tho. :p

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#22 Natus

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Posted 23 May 2007 - 10:23 PM

Let's talk some truth. The reason the BFME section did good is because I worked my fucking ass off to make it work. I PR'd like no one here is even capable of.

I seriously don't think you can just make a new division and think it will succeed. Petrolution had all it needed. A great site, a great forum skin, honest effort for sucess. You know what? it failed.

Launching a new division isn't simply just "build it and they will come" Petrolution proved that. We built it, and only a few came.

So no need to put forth any story about setting up a new division unless there is a REALLY dedicated "boot on the ground" to make it work.

I can count the number of boots on one hand. And all those boots currently have feet in them. Let's not fool ourselves on expanding without the proper staff to do so.


On the money. Considering BFME was an EA, following the same engine as Generals more or less, it took an immense amount of work to get a mod community for it on Revora. You move to supporting a game on a completely different engine, with a developer who is not exactly helpful to modders and an engine, which a year or so before release already looks dated, well, odds are severely against. Wrong community for the game. Hostile, I will hand it too him, worked hard for getting a BFME community here. And I would gamble that if not for persistance and the fact that its a SAGE engine game, the entire section would not exist.


The art isn't bad, but C&C3 graphics look better.

That is true. And it basically nails the game's coffin right there...


Again, in total agreement. Although the game is still in development, I highly doubt it will offer anything new or unique to the RTS genre, few RTS in the last few years have bar Rise Of Legends and a couple of others. Ironic, a game with genuine originality is shunned and recieves little to no press when compared with larger bugdets yet insufficient originality e.g. Act Of War, or even C&C 3.

Hell, C&C 3 thrived simply because its so polished upon release, and lets face it, odds are Blizzard wont bother with the funds for bringing in actual actors or offering something quite so polished. Company Of Heroes came out in 06, and it still, for looks, simply exceeds whats on offer for SC2.

Edited by Natus, 23 May 2007 - 10:25 PM.

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#23 adummy

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Posted 23 May 2007 - 11:01 PM

in defence of Blizzard, they have never been a company where the graphics are the most important thing about the game. The spend a lot more time on balancing the game. In their 15 patches (15th was released just about a week ago), they have only had 2 patches that spent on balancing the game (except one or 2 small things), one for normal StarCraft, and one for Brood War.
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#24 Detail

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Posted 24 May 2007 - 10:49 PM

Balance is important.

A good example is Dawn of War. I play against 7 AI players and oh look it's came down to me and Chaos again :sleep:

#25 Ash

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Posted 25 May 2007 - 07:59 PM

To be fair, DoW is pretty well balanced. Considering Dark Crusade has like SEVEN sides...I'd say they did a good job at keeping it together. Orks and IG (earlygame) are probably the weakest side, and SMs/Chaos the strongest overall.

And SC can hardly be considered totally balanced. The Zerg Rush is known even among non-SC players like myself.

#26 Bart

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Posted 26 May 2007 - 01:02 PM

Hostile, I will hand it too him, worked hard for getting a BFME community here. And I would gamble that if not for persistance and the fact that its a SAGE engine game, the entire section would not exist.

the fact that we are the only BFME Modding Community out there also helps quite a bit :p
I don't think you'll get that with Starcraft
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#27 Banshee

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Posted 26 May 2007 - 03:23 PM

The more I read these replies, the more I see this place seriously needs high injections of self-steam. So, I'm sorry if I be a bit rude in this reply, don't take it personal, but it's time for some of you to stop being a bunch of cowards!

The 3rd Age did not became the main modding community for Battle For Middle Earth for being the only one. It has always been a great place in terms of content and community itself. It growed out of the competence of the people who ran it. The same applies to CnC Guild. CnC Guild still expands thanks to the great community of Red Alert 2 modders we have here.

Petrolution failed, but if you look at the other Petroglyph related sites in the web, you'll noticed that they are all empty as well. Even Dawn of War grows in Revora, in terms of popularity and we've barely did anything to that division.

While I think Petrolution can only get good once UaW gets close to be released, it is possible to raise communities from the dead. If there is something that makes me proud with PPM, is that I've unburied Tiberian Sun and motivated old modders to return to the game and old sites to regrow and even after 4 years of PPM getting some popularity, there is a good set of TS mods being produced and some great ones released.


Starcraft II will have a very flexible map editor and it will certainly live of custom maps, like Warcraft III does. The online community for Blizzard games is very strong and I think it's possible to grow one in Revora.


We can start with some forums, post some World Editor tutorials, maps (there is one for warcraft III hosted here so far). Then, once it attracts more attention, we gather a group of people to create a Blizzard mapping site here.
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#28 Apollo

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Posted 26 May 2007 - 03:52 PM

steam? ;) i think you meant self-esteem or something.

anyway even the potential flame wars between true C&C fans and then blizzard fans would be well not fun to moderate or even try control but i guess you volunteer for that as well... just EA forum has shown enough of that and now you'd want it to be brought over here ? :p

Edited by Apollo, 26 May 2007 - 03:53 PM.

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#29 Natus

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Posted 26 May 2007 - 04:08 PM

The more I read these replies, the more I see this place seriously needs high injections of self-steam. So, I'm sorry if I be a bit rude in this reply, don't take it personal, but it's time for some of you to stop being a bunch of cowards!

The 3rd Age did not became the main modding community for Battle For Middle Earth for being the only one. It has always been a great place in terms of content and community itself. It growed out of the competence of the people who ran it. The same applies to CnC Guild. CnC Guild still expands thanks to the great community of Red Alert 2 modders we have here.

Petrolution failed, but if you look at the other Petroglyph related sites in the web, you'll noticed that they are all empty as well. Even Dawn of War grows in Revora, in terms of popularity and we've barely did anything to that division.

While I think Petrolution can only get good once UaW gets close to be released, it is possible to raise communities from the dead. If there is something that makes me proud with PPM, is that I've unburied Tiberian Sun and motivated old modders to return to the game and old sites to regrow and even after 4 years of PPM getting some popularity, there is a good set of TS mods being produced and some great ones released.


Starcraft II will have a very flexible map editor and it will certainly live of custom maps, like Warcraft III does. The online community for Blizzard games is very strong and I think it's possible to grow one in Revora.


We can start with some forums, post some World Editor tutorials, maps (there is one for warcraft III hosted here so far). Then, once it attracts more attention, we gather a group of people to create a Blizzard mapping site here.



Oh let the fun begin! Allow me to address a few things here and now;

You mention self esteem, now, please explain where in the name of god self esteem comes in? Because, a few simple facts; this is a C&C mod community, not a Star Craft mod community. Two rival communities under one roof to re-itterate Apollos point. Great, next, lets add a mongoose and a snake to the mix, just to spice up the idea, you know, instead of just having two rival communities killing eachother, lets have wild animals. Christ, this is a mod network not some kind of all consuming monolith of pointless, crappy ideas!

Now, addressing cowardice;

So, if a man is driving towards a cliff, if he decides to swerve away instead of go plunging 100 foot into a rocky ravine, hes a coward? Shit I must be a coward for not walking into a bus earlier. Simple fact; if somethings stupid, people dont do it.

BFME2 section;

Well, in actuality, its the only main hub for BFME 2 modding, regardless. Hostile made sure the thing would float with hard work, and because he knew what he was doing. Now, I dont know if it was just me, but I didnt exactly get many useful sites while browsing on google for such things, infact, I got mostly pointless crap.

Petrolution;

Well this is'nt maths, bad engine, bad game. It was about as good as the idea to host Half Life mods. Let us praise the leadership and their wise choices! Halluah!

And finally, SC2;

Well, with a map editor, the world is opened up to us! With us being mainly a mod network for its opposition game! Holy crap, I see the light! Praise be when we hit a total of 5 hits for our SC modding and mapping section!


Bottom line;

Bollocks.
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#30 Banshee

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Posted 26 May 2007 - 04:24 PM

First of all, yea, I was talking about self esteem. Thanks for fixing me, for being comprehensive and excuse my poor vocabulary.


One of the most ridiculous things I've heard in my life is rivalities between gaming communities. Let's face it: fighting with people because of someone else's business is depressing. We are gamers and we are entitled to play C&C and Starcraft games and we are also entitled to enjoy both.

Also, I've heard of several gaming communities that supports both. Here's a sample.

So, if a man is driving towards a cliff, if he decides to swerve away instead of go plunging 100 foot into a rocky ravine, hes a coward? Shit I must be a coward for not walking into a bus earlier. Simple fact; if somethings stupid, people dont do it.


No one is asking for anyone to commit suicide or anything close to be as stupid as that.

I'm interested on trying a Blizzard community here. If it works, good. If it doesn't work, it simply doesn't work. Would it harm you?
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#31 Ash

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Posted 26 May 2007 - 04:27 PM

Bansh, you just got dicked in every conceivable orifice by that post. I wholeheartedly concur with Natus. This is a fool's venture much as Infinite War was for me.

It'll not pull off. There was no modbase for Starcraft. This game won't attract the fans beyond people who play the game.

All you are doing is moaning and deriding people for saying so and saying they have no ambition for new ideas. Well, bang, if it ain't the kettle giving the pot some racial slur.

Edited by Paradox, 26 May 2007 - 04:29 PM.


#32 Banshee

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Posted 26 May 2007 - 04:40 PM

Paradox, there is no modbase for Starcraft, but there is a huge mapping base for it. It is a fact. Open Warcraft III, try getting online on Battle.Net and go to custom maps. It doesn't matter which of the 4 servers from Blizzard that you choose, there is a horde of people playing custom maps. It usually shows up like 100+ games at the moment you refresh the list.


Infinity Wars failed for lack of content and lack of real Supreme Commander modders. If we lack Starcraft mappers here, our SC division will be a big flop. I'm aware of that. But if we manage to attract these mappers, we can have another T3A here.
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#33 Natus

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Posted 26 May 2007 - 04:47 PM

Hm, so, let me re-cap, you would waste time and resources to create an already failed community? And just to check, you are a Network Leader? So, let me just check, with the fact thats placed above you still belive its a good idea?

Ok, no problem, well, it is good to see, under your guiding light, we shall progress further into stupity, and no doubt end up supporting Pac Man eventually, maybe even Space Invaders, I mean, I am sure there will be World Builders released for both eventually.

Stupid ideas are stupid ideas. Dress them up all you like.
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#34 Bart

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Posted 26 May 2007 - 05:03 PM

The 3rd Age did not became the main modding community for Battle For Middle Earth for being the only one.

I didn't say that, I just said that us being to only one definitely helped :p
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#35 ambershee

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Posted 26 May 2007 - 05:08 PM

It's a do or don't situation. If you don't try, then you certainly can't pull it off. Noone can predict the eventual outcome; personally I always thought that T3A would struggle, but it's still here, and is one of (if not the) most prominant BfME Modding / Mapping communities.

It's also not a question of this imaginary 'rift' between hordes of CnC and StarCraft fanboys; because it's just that, imaginary. We don't have any such rifts between our CnC, BfME, EaW and DoW communities, do we? I'm pretty sure all of those games could be considered rivals to one another, and they all cater to different audiences. If you play / mod both CnC and DoW, you're going to be in both communities - if you don't play / mod EaW, it's pretty unlikely you're going to be sticking your nose into their business at all.

We don't know how moddable / mappable SC2 will be - that's a fact. It may ship without any editability at all. While I have no qualms with setting up an SC2 community, now is perhaps not the time, it's a little early, I'd hazard a guess. Setting up some form of SC community for both games however, is something you can do, attempt to pull existing SC fans into the fold prior to the release of SC2 so that there is an established community, regardless of what you get out of SC2 itself.

#36 Banshee

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Posted 26 May 2007 - 05:13 PM

Natus,


According to your vision, Starcraft is failure. Here's my answer for everything you said on it:

Starcraft lacks any real mod community, and the few who do mod it do not get far. Plus, odds will be its modability will be piss poor.


Modding Blizzard games sucks, but Blizzard offers the best map editor in terms of triggers and scripting, allowing to create any kind of game inside any map. I've played from tower defenses, to rpgs, third person shooter, hero wars related and so many other warcraft III kind of maps. There are millions of Warcraft III maps being made, even after 5 years of the game being released. What I'm suggesting here is a community to map these games, specially the future Starcraft II.


While mapping SC1/2 would be a viable option for expanding Revora, it is a poor choice. This is a C&C community, while we share the base outline of game type (RTS) that is all that is shared. I would wager any attempt would fail, and fail quickly. There has, and I belive, won't ever be, a joint RTS community, and day dreams of such a thing are fool hardy.


I agree that few of us would really mod SAGE games and map Blizzard games, but your point fails in one basic thing:

-> Do you expect that every visitor of Revora mods or maps everything we cover here? Nobody does that, but some people may mod or already modded more than one game. Of course, they would be our starting point, but we'll need to advertise Revora to other networks and forums. We are offering options here, not trying to force everyone to do everything. Even the community we already have here is not that united. People only visits what interest them.

On the money. Considering BFME was an EA, following the same engine as Generals more or less, it took an immense amount of work to get a mod community for it on Revora. You move to supporting a game on a completely different engine, with a developer who is not exactly helpful to modders and an engine, which a year or so before release already looks dated, well, odds are severely against. Wrong community for the game. Hostile, I will hand it too him, worked hard for getting a BFME community here. And I would gamble that if not for persistance and the fact that its a SAGE engine game, the entire section would not exist.


The developper does support mapping. It's the best one to support that. The engine might be different, but mapping with World Editor is very intuitive, easy to learn, unlike World Builder. And you can add custom textures, sounds and other goodies on it and transmit it online to other players.

Although the game is still in development, I highly doubt it will offer anything new or unique to the RTS genre, few RTS in the last few years have bar Rise Of Legends and a couple of others. Ironic, a game with genuine originality is shunned and recieves little to no press when compared with larger bugdets yet insufficient originality e.g. Act Of War, or even C&C 3.


I agree with you on that, but I still think SC has a vast potential with online maps of any kind and that's where Revora should explore.




Ok, no problem, well, it is good to see, under your guiding light, we shall progress further into stupity, and no doubt end up supporting Pac Man eventually, maybe even Space Invaders, I mean, I am sure there will be World Builders released for both eventually.


It's easy to blame leaders when things fails. It's like blaming God for all the problems in your life, while actually everything has a little to be blamed, specially yourself. Things only work if people make it work... not only leaders, but the whole community. There are things here that works thanks to the efforts of the leaders. Others that the leaders never touched (like Dawn of War section) and they work well dispite the game limitations. The fact is that the community (and not only the leaders) are the ones who make ideas work here. I know I can't have a Starcraft division working alone. This is why I've started this topic here, to gather community support. I'm still evaluating the possibility of a Starcraft division here. If the community support it, I'm sure it will work as well as The 3rd Age did, even if we are majorly composed of C&C modders.
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#37 Natus

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Posted 26 May 2007 - 05:36 PM

Natus,


According to your vision, Starcraft is failure. Here's my answer for everything you said on it:

Starcraft lacks any real mod community, and the few who do mod it do not get far. Plus, odds will be its modability will be piss poor.


Modding Blizzard games sucks, but Blizzard offers the best map editor in terms of triggers and scripting, allowing to create any kind of game inside any map. I've played from tower defenses, to rpgs, third person shooter, hero wars related and so many other warcraft III kind of maps. There are millions of Warcraft III maps being made, even after 5 years of the game being released. What I'm suggesting here is a community to map these games, specially the future Starcraft II.


While mapping SC1/2 would be a viable option for expanding Revora, it is a poor choice. This is a C&C community, while we share the base outline of game type (RTS) that is all that is shared. I would wager any attempt would fail, and fail quickly. There has, and I belive, won't ever be, a joint RTS community, and day dreams of such a thing are fool hardy.


I agree that few of us would really mod SAGE games and map Blizzard games, but your point fails in one basic thing:

-> Do you expect that every visitor of Revora mods or maps everything we cover here? Nobody does that, but some people may mod or already modded more than one game. Of course, they would be our starting point, but we'll need to advertise Revora to other networks and forums. We are offering options here, not trying to force everyone to do everything. Even the community we already have here is not that united. People only visits what interest them.

On the money. Considering BFME was an EA, following the same engine as Generals more or less, it took an immense amount of work to get a mod community for it on Revora. You move to supporting a game on a completely different engine, with a developer who is not exactly helpful to modders and an engine, which a year or so before release already looks dated, well, odds are severely against. Wrong community for the game. Hostile, I will hand it too him, worked hard for getting a BFME community here. And I would gamble that if not for persistance and the fact that its a SAGE engine game, the entire section would not exist.


The developper does support mapping. It's the best one to support that. The engine might be different, but mapping with World Editor is very intuitive, easy to learn, unlike World Builder. And you can add custom textures, sounds and other goodies on it and transmit it online to other players.

Although the game is still in development, I highly doubt it will offer anything new or unique to the RTS genre, few RTS in the last few years have bar Rise Of Legends and a couple of others. Ironic, a game with genuine originality is shunned and recieves little to no press when compared with larger bugdets yet insufficient originality e.g. Act Of War, or even C&C 3.


I agree with you on that, but I still think SC has a vast potential with online maps of any kind and that's where Revora should explore.




Ok, no problem, well, it is good to see, under your guiding light, we shall progress further into stupity, and no doubt end up supporting Pac Man eventually, maybe even Space Invaders, I mean, I am sure there will be World Builders released for both eventually.


It's easy to blame leaders when things fails. It's like blaming God for all the problems in your life, while actually everything has a little to be blamed, specially yourself. Things only work if people make it work... not only leaders, but the whole community. There are things here that works thanks to the efforts of the leaders. Others that the leaders never touched (like Dawn of War section) and they work well dispite the game limitations. The fact is that the community (and not only the leaders) are the ones who make ideas work here. I know I can't have a Starcraft division working alone. This is why I've started this topic here, to gather community support. I'm still evaluating the possibility of a Starcraft division here. If the community support it, I'm sure it will work as well as The 3rd Age did, even if we are majorly composed of C&C modders.


It just never ends...

Map Editor;

Well wonderful. No, really wonderful. So did Rise Of Legends, Rise Of Nations, Spellforce 2 and Earth 2160, guess we should support them too eh? No? But they had good editors.


Visiter Modders;

Guess thats same reason we had a HL section yeah? Genious strikes again, keep throwing them, and I will hit them right out back at you.

World Editor;

Again, read above. If were the wrong community, and unless we have someone like Hostile running it, oh, and do not forget the millions of already existing SC sites. But hey, were Revora, we can pull magic out our arses.

And for the finale';

Well, when its the leaders who choose how things are done, well, I mean I am not a network leader, but their the ones who make the call. Half Life hosting, the leaders choice, Petrolution, the leaders choice. So, well, actually, things that fail, are your fault. You give a thumbs up to something that screws up, well, your fault. But hey, you know you'll succeed, so go on ahead. Just do not expect support or people to agree with you. Just because a large number of people seem to adore you in their desperate attempt to cling to some kind of feeble power of a forum, does not mean you have everyone else backing you.

And again, to finalise the argument put forward;

Bollocks.
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#38 Banshee

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Posted 26 May 2007 - 07:35 PM

Kid, research before insisting comparing the Warcraft/Starcraft fanbase with the games you mentioned above. Warcraft III is one of the most played RTS onlines ever in the damn human history and probably the most mapped game in the damn history as well. And yea, there are millions of existing Starcraft sites and if we advertise at these places, we can catch some of their visitors.


Finally. Ideas can work or not depending on the way they are implemented. And also, AdmiralGT was the person who started Petrolution and he was not a network leader and I don't think his work was a flop. He was just misfortuned in the game he choosed. We still have hopes with Universe At War, because the game will be much more moddable than EaW was, but, honestly, if it turns out to be a flop, I'll drop Petrolution.
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#39 Natus

Natus

    i maid a telescope with my smarties toob

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Posted 26 May 2007 - 08:06 PM

And you had to shake to hornet's nest.

Kid? So, by offering the fatal flaws in your argument, and by reminding you that you screwed up previously, I am a child, correct? There is but one child here, and that, I am proven to say is you. You pose an idea for a new section, yet the idea is pointless. You host FPS modifications on a RTS community, and once again, it proves fruitless. You have the tenacity to approach me, and say I need to do my research. Well, I have, and hence, I make a point which will linger. Regardless of the existing community of War/Starcraft, we are not in that community. And unless you, who so wish to be proven right, for shall you not be, the very ground will quake and hell will rise, intend to take it upon yourself to abandon PPM or indeed try and juggle the two and upon which instance almost guarantee less quality, give rise to such a thing, go right ahead.

I highly suggest you glance upon a mirror before you throw around such foolish comments Banshee. You are the one who offers chirlish notions, not me. Others may follow your lead in a pathetic attempt to gain ground, I however, do not. But please, do not let me stop you make an arse out of yourself. Host a new "Starcraft" section, with all the facts of failiure in mind. Endeavour in your pointless escapade of trying to prove yourself right, even when deluded. I shall enjoy watching.

But I believe I will not be the first, nor the last to say this to you. I do not care for your squabbels with staff but for your inability to use proper guidance when trying to advance a network. You cannot have your cake and eat it I am afraid on this occasion. Purely because your wrong on your actions and opinion.

Regarding Petrolution, it is a failiure yes, and it was the wrong game yes, but does it not occur that, maybe, just maybe, people check the game out before supporting it? Sure, on paper it sounds great, in practise it falls flat. Yet, when a game is upcoming, offering same World Builder as almost every other game out there, with an existing community of massive size, which by current standards already looks dated, you jump at the chance to support it, yet those who see such a notion is foolish, is as you say, a "coward"? Entertaining.
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#40 Banshee

Banshee

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Posted 26 May 2007 - 08:28 PM

Kid? So, by offering the fatal flaws in your argument, and by reminding you that you screwed up previously, I am a child, correct?


No, a child just for your lame and unnecessary sarcasm in your latest replies. And also for blaming the leadership for the actions of a whole community. We do not mind control people, neither control every aspect of Revora. We are a creative community, not creative dictators :p.

Regardless of the existing community of War/Starcraft, we are not in that community. And unless you, who so wish to be proven right, for shall you not be, the very ground will quake and hell will rise, intend to take it upon yourself to abandon PPM or indeed try and juggle the two and upon which instance almost guarantee less quality, give rise to such a thing, go right ahead.


Valid point, but we weren't either on C&C community before Editing Source and CnC Guild were started. The people who started these places and consequently and made them become successfull were true C&C modders who visited other C&C communities and were interested on modding the game. The Half Life division worked well while we had a HL modder (Detail). Once he left, it declined.

The point of this topic, which you didn't seem to pay attention, at least in your arguments, is that I am looking for people who is interested on it and who also is or can get engaged in the Starcraft community to insert Revora on that group. A Starcraft division or whatever division we try to start must have real modders or mappers behind and people who are interest on sharing this interest with other people.

But you are right about one thing, we don't really have enough interested Starcraft/Warcraft mappers to start such community, unless someone prooves me wrong. This is why I'm just evaluating this possibility, but I'm not very confidentn of its success either and my argument with you is scaring these potential Starcraft mappers from replying here. So far the two people who seemed to be interested on having a SC community here doesn't look to be enough to get this game of the ground here. There would be an initial chit chat about the game and then, it would flop.
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